[coiax] Tiphaine - Stuff

[DrunkenMatey]

Post Content:
DrunkenMatey Tiphaine
Admin: coiax
Time and Server(Bagil) incident occurred: 4pm ish mountain
ROUND ID HERE: 99331
Detailed summary: Quite a ways into the round. Plasma starts coming out of the vents in the main hallway and fires are being started. I decide to go into the bridge to see if I can do a shuttle call or get an intelicard to check if AI is rogue. I start hacking the second door to get onto the bridge and Captain Bal Dee watches me open the door then shotguns me in the face into crit, searches my stuff and leaves most of it (including my oxygen) on the bridge and then starts dragging my body off, regen coma virus does its thing and I get back up. I run to the bridge door hoping to get my oxygen back, captain disables me then lazers me to death and hacks at me with his sword for a few min before realizing it was regen coma. Takes me to cloning but gets my body lit on fire in the process so I come out of cloning with no gear and the air is toxic to breath and so I die again.
I ahelped the situation as there was no justification for shotgunning me into crit, the Cap had just called shuttle (as I was opening the door) and we were on the lowest alert level at the time (20min call), he had non-lethal means of subduing me (which he used after I regened). The response I got was:
Admin PM from-Administrator: Imagine it from the captain's perspective. It's code red, plasma's coming out of the vetns, the AI's rogue, things have caught fire.

Then some guy starts hacking into the bridge, and then dies after he shoots them, and then stands up again.

What would you do in that situation?

Click on the administrator's name to reply.

Which ignores the actual complaint, I understand thinking I might be a ling after I get back up. I talked to the admin a bit more, worth noting as well that "
Current Admins:
Lmwevil is a GameAdmin
Nervere is a HeadAdmin
Adminhelps are also sent to IRC. If no admins are available in game adminhelp anyways and an admin on IRC will see it and respond."

coiax wasn't even listed as online with adminwho, but he or another admin told me that it was coiax who I had been talking to. "-- Administrator private message --

Admin PM from-Administrator: You were talking to coiax, and I don't think the captain shooting you for hacking into the bridge during a crisis situation is actionable. Excessive, possibly, but not actionable.

Click on the administrator's name to reply." I tried to discuss the situation a bit more hoping that there would be a warning or note given to the player for their actions but was then told "-- Administrator private message --

Admin PM from-Administrator: I'm not going to be taking action. Sorry.

Click on the administrator's name to reply."

So I decided to take it here as the whole process was particularly unpleasant as I did not know the name of the admin I was dealing with which kinda made me wonder if the guy I was complaining about was the admin I was talking to or something? I have no idea who plays Bal Dee, they didn't reply to most of my messaging as I sought some clarification and better understanding of the situation and they seemed to be quite willing to condone excessive violence from a character who is pretty known for generally being a huge griefer and tider (though I don't know what kind of notes the player has or if they would be taken into consideration for this situation). If something is excessive then maybe it is worth a warning or note? I never asked for a ban or anything I just wanted to bring shitty behaviour to their attention; but it sounds like they either did not talk to the player at all or decided against issuing a warning or note or anything.

[coiax]

Full adminhelp logs.

Round ID: 99331

Code: Select all

[2018-12-27 22:43:17.114] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #8: DrunkenMatey/(Tiphaine): ok so. I hacked a door to get onto the bridge as AI is venting plasma and seems rogue so i wanted an intelicard. So captain sees me, I just casually open the door, he shotguns me into crit. So then the healing coma virus heals me, so he then murders me while I am trying to get back into the bridge to get my air which he stole from me because theres plasma in the air. - heard by 2 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[2018-12-27 22:44:28.612] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Coiax/(Braxton Cherry)->DrunkenMatey/(Tiphaine): Imagine it from the captain's perspective. It's  code red, plasma's coming out of the vetns, the AI's rogue, things have caught fire.
[2018-12-27 22:44:42.588] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DrunkenMatey/(Tiphaine)->Coiax/(Braxton Cherry): its code green. 20min shuttle call.
[2018-12-27 22:44:59.044] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DrunkenMatey/(Tiphaine)->Coiax/(Braxton Cherry): or it was, when he killed me. for opening a door.
[2018-12-27 22:45:19.775] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Coiax/(Braxton Cherry)->DrunkenMatey/(Tiphaine): The code is mostly symbolic, things can be red alert level without the alert level being actually red.
[2018-12-27 22:47:05.121] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DrunkenMatey/(Tiphaine)->Coiax/(Braxton Cherry): im guessing this means you arent going to have a word with him or anything? I don't think hacking a door open makes someone valid for shotgunnning them in the face, especially as he also had an energy gun which he could use to non-lethally disable me, as he did after the regen coma.. before then murdering me outright while i didnt even attempt to dodge.
[2018-12-27 22:49:45.280] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DrunkenMatey/(Tiphaine)->Coiax/(Braxton Cherry): and since he got my body lit on fire before throwing it in cloning, and left half my gear including my o2 on the bridge, i died right out of cloning as the air is toxic. so he deleted me from the round for opening a door.
[2018-12-27 22:51:17.794] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DrunkenMatey/(Tiphaine)->Coiax/(Braxton Cherry): Also, is there a reason you are listed as "Administrator" and not an actual name?

Round ID: 99334

Code: Select all

[2018-12-27 22:58:45.389] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #3: DrunkenMatey/(DrunkenMatey): just to verify, my complaint isnt so much being murdered after the regen coma, my complaint is with a captain shotgunning me in the face for opening a door. I don't know what he was going to do with me while I was in crit besides searching me and leaving my O2 and various other stuff on the bridge despite me having 0 chance of surviving without 02. Also I would still like to know who I was talking to. - heard by 1 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[2018-12-27 22:59:35.484] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Coiax/(Braxton Cherry)->DrunkenMatey/(DrunkenMatey): You were talking to coiax, and I don't think the captain shooting you for hacking into the bridge during a crisis situation is actionable. Excessive, possibly, but not actionable.
[2018-12-27 23:04:32.131] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DrunkenMatey/(DrunkenMatey)->Coiax/(Braxton Cherry): Rule 1. Don't be a dick.##Escalation: If a player wrongs you (i didnt), ##Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security.#Wasn't near round start, had a good reason though he made no attempt to communicate.##I see nothing in the rules that says you can crit someone for tresspassing. The closest is if they are continuously being a pain in the ass.##Also, not sure if a players history is relevenat but Bal Dee is a huge griefer in general so I am less likely to trust his motives.
[2018-12-27 23:04:58.344] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Coiax/(Braxton Cherry)->DrunkenMatey/(DrunkenMatey): I'm not going to be taking action. Sorry.
[2018-12-27 23:05:33.380] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DrunkenMatey/(DrunkenMatey)->Coiax/(Braxton Cherry): So should my complaint be for coaix or?
[2018-12-27 23:05:40.140] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Coiax/(Braxton Cherry)->DrunkenMatey/(DrunkenMatey): Yes, coiax.
[2018-12-27 23:05:51.182] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DrunkenMatey/(DrunkenMatey)->Coiax/(Braxton Cherry): ok. thanks.

[DrunkenMatey]

Just as an addendum in regards to what I actually want out of this complaint.

I would like to see players being held a bit more accountable for using violence in situations where it isn't justified and admins being a bit more willing to warn/note players who are being (excessively) violent in situations where it isn't called for and maybe make it a bit more normal for admin decisions to be challenged on the forums without it being a total shit show (hopefully). I guess it could be a policy discussion thing too but in the few months I've been playing again I have had a couple of other situations where players were even more blatantly violating rules and admins wouldn't even give them a warning over it so I figure if I want to see some improvements then I should bite the bullet and risk having admins think I'm an asshole for challenging one of them on a decision I disagreed with. I am not asking for Coaix to lose admin or get any big punishment over this. I just want this situation to be examined in more detail in the hopes of improving player and admin understandings of expectations/rules. If it turns out the consensus is that Coiax handled this situation properly then so be it; it's hard to say "nothing personal" when making a complaint directed at him but I really do have no ill will towards him, I just think he made the wrong call on this one and would like to see if that is the case.

P.s. I don't know if it is fairly normal protocol to be stealthmin and reply to ahelps as "administrator" rather than by name, but that added to my concern in this incident as it seemed like the admin was hiding their name from me for some reason. Maybe that is just silly on my part though, the few adminhelps I've done in the last few months always had a name attached and I certainly prefer knowing who I am talking to.

[coiax]

I'm not sure if I'm entirely happy with the concept of a formal complaint being made about me as an admin to open a discussion about policy.

[pubby]

I'm bored so I read the log.

Log says you were playing as the mime.

There's no reference to an oxygen tank getting stripped from your bag. Was the tank you went back for still unused in your box?

The shotgun was a combat shotgun, which was in the captain's hands when you broke in as it can't fit into a backpack.

And presumably coiax leaked information by telling the player that the AI was rogue.

[Cobby]

"THIS BOARD IS FOR SPECIFIC INCIDENCES OF IN-GAME ADMIN ABUSE."

If the issue is you don't think the admin is enforcing the rules properly then that's fine, but if the thread is meant to discuss policy then we have a dedicated subsection that might be more suitable to your needs.

[DrunkenMatey]

I'm not sure if I'm entirely happy with the concept of a formal complaint being made about me as an admin to open a discussion about policy.

The thread is "I don't think the admin enforced the rules properly" I disagree with how you handled the situation and so making a complaint thread is the only method I know of to have the issue examined by other admins in the hope of you handling future situations in a different manner. I don't mean it as an attack on you and I hope it isn't viewed that way. It may be that admins take your side on this one in which case I guess I would have to lower my expectations for how certain things are addressed on the server but my hope is that there is agreement on the players actions being problematic.

As to pubby, I had an extended o2 in my pocket and my regular one in the box in my backpack. He emptied my pockets and left my backpack on the bridge.
edit: also to pubby, I had said the AI was rogue in my ahelp, though I was speculating, so maybe he confirmed it or he might have just been going from the Cap's perspective which I shared in assuming the AI was rogue because of the plasma flood. Either way, I was a dead mime who cloned and died again while everyone was getting on the shuttle so it certainly didn't impact anything.

[lmwevil]

for context coiax was invisimin doing code testing while i was on at the time, there has never been a precedent against administrators handling tickets invisible or being invisible for whatever reason (such as checking on a player or making it seem like no admins on time to griff)

admins can't handle any ticket that involved them in the round so even if bal dee was an admin he'd get deadminned pretty fast talking to you so that's a moot point. if you're ever concerned about that sorta thing note down the round ID and forum PM the headmins to investigate any invismin stuff - note that it is an ENTIRELY valid tool for us to use at any time and if you really want to know the invismin might tell you (frequently headmins do it)

i'd have slammed the IC issue button honestly, the captain did even try to revive you when he figured out you weren't a ling so it's not like he was validhunting or acting in bad faith, nor was it excessive force given that the whole place is falling to shit and one of the few safe and secure places left is being broken into.

also finally @Pubby the disclosure of antags through ahelps is entirely at the discretion of the player, either saying a simple 'valid' or stating antags. it can be excessive info but it'd be an act of bad faith for a player to immediately use ahelp knowledge to say 'GOD SAYS THE AI IS ROGUE' plus based on all of this it seemed relatively self evident

PS: for @drukenmatey nobody has ever been punished for being invismin the way coiax was those rounds to my knowledge, and i wouldn't expect much to come from this complaint

[DrunkenMatey]

Yeah with regards to invisminining, I wasn't sure if it was normal or not, I hadn't run into it before so that's fine. I did have to ask a couple times to get a name but eventually he did give me a name, it was just something that added to my frustration at the time.

I (obviously) disagree with your assessment of the situation; I guess I can agree it wasn't validhunting so much as murderboning as a non-antag, I would certainly put it down as bad faith and excessive force. I had no weapon, there were no reports of me being a threat to anyone, he could have said "Fuck off" and I would have left or just gone around to the other door if he was that terrified of me, or even fire a warning shot BEFORE I open the door. If he hadn't shotgunned me I would have just gone in, hugged him, and looked for the inteli-card since the shuttle had been called. If it is judged to be IC then I guess the next step would be to try and start a discussion on escalation policy. If you call this IC then the precedent seems to be "You can crit/kill anyone you want so long as you have even the slightest of reasons (IE you see them hack open a door, or they enter your workplace) so long as you dump their body in medbay/cloning later, even if the air in cloning is toxic and under enough pressure to kill the person before they can get out of medbay" in which case... do we even have an escalation policy? Cause going from 0 to 100 isn't really escalation when you skip everything in between.


Edit: I don't know if Coiax talked to Bal Dee at all about this during the round or later. It would be interesting to hear his side of things.


Edit2: Read through the entire rules page again, still don't see anything that supports his actions, please quote me whatever rules you think justify his behaviour.

[Yakumo_Chen]

Breaking into command rooms such as bridge or cap office makes you automatically valid to command and security, for the record.

[DrunkenMatey]

Well here are the rules that seem relevant to this. I didn't find anything that justified his actions but I did find a lot that say not to do what he did; hence me bringing this up here as to my knowledge Coiax did not talk to Bal Dee about the situation at all, let alone give him a warning.

Don't be a dick.
We're all here to have a good time, supposedly. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules. Legitimate conflicts where people get upset do happen however, as detailed in the escalation section of the rules. Waiting on the other side of a door to murder someone with no IC justification beside "lol I bet I can get away with this (I don't actually know his thoughts as I didn't see anything with him talking to Coiax explaining his actions" is being a dick.

Escalation

Spoiler:

If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)

You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence. If you think it's unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round.

If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed.

Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.

No interaction with him, so no escalation. It does allow instigating but specifically says not to take them out of the round unprovoked for long periods of time (the station was a mess and cloning was not survivable)

The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.
Not sure if this one applies to Captain as he isn't really sec, but he does have all the tools and access to be supercop so it seems logcial that if he is taking it upon himself to enforce the LAW then he should do so in similar fashion

Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security.
it had been a long peaceful round (code green) prior to the plasma flood which was 40? or so minutes into the round.

You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety.
I didn't steal or damage property and he skipped straight to lethal without even attempting to ask me to leave

[Nervere]

We have chosen to not uphold this complaint.
An examination of the situation that this complaint surrounds shows that Coiax was not incorrect in his ruling or in the way that he handled the situation.
You were a mime who silently hacked their way into the bridge during a code-red scenario, with a plasmaflood ongoing. You cannot fault the captain for attacking you for this, especially as you were just critted. Looking at the attack logs for this portion of the incident, it's not even like the captain was full of bloodlust/validhunting, he knocked you into crit and then went back to trying to deal with the situation.
After you were revived by the regeneration coma virus, the captain assumes you're a changeling and kills you. This part is a bit questionable, but again the context of a code-red scenario and the fact that revival soon after death is a tell-tale sign of changelings, it's hard to fault the captain. After he realized his mistake, he tried to clone you. This attempt failed, but it was less on his part and more on the dire state of the station.
As for Coiax remaining stealthminned, others have said it in this thread, but we'd like to reiterate that admins are free to stealthmin as they please. The only time I foresee us having a problem with it is if the person stealthed lies about their identity.

To summarize, we do not find fault with Coiax's actions in this scenario. If you would like to pursue the issue of conflict escalation further, as it seems to be something that you have an issue with, I encourage you to draft a policy discussion thread on the issue.