[Shaps and Unit2E] Eskjjlj - Biased ruling

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Eskjjlj
 
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:26 am
Byond Username: Eskjjlj

[Shaps and Unit2E] Eskjjlj - Biased ruling

Postby Eskjjlj » Wed May 13, 2020 3:25 pm #561713

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Bagil
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) that was a hardcore random character.
Admin: Unit2E and Shaps. Dankausaur was online too but did not message me, i don't know if this admin participated in the ruling
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: 136965 on Bagil
Detailed summary:
Initially I wanted to make this a policy thread to resolve the issue peacefully but I was encouraged to turn this into a complaint so here it is.

About 5 minutes into the round I see Prosper Finely try to kill a cargo tech named Victor Beauregard, I scream over the radio that Prosper was murdering the guy to try and get people to help since I was a hardcore random character I couldn't do much. Some time later I see her hit someone else, I assumed she was rogue and screamed over the radio how she was killing people. At this point I suspected she was just self-antagging, skirting around the rules to kill unassuming players because her victim did not seem to know how to fight back.

13 minutes into the round I see her victim, Victor, in the medbay, missing a leg, being healed. I asked him why Prosper killed him and he told me she threw a toolbox at him and attacked him after he threw it back at her, which confirmed my suspicions Prosper killbaited him successfully. Knowing this I made a dark humored joke over the radio where I used the slur which prompted the admins online to rule I was valid for round removal.

22 minutes into the round, Prosper wearing a witch robe and a biohood as a disguise rushes me in the hallway, kills me, stripped off my jumpsuit to prevent doctors from using suit sensors to find me, dragged and hid my body in a locker in an area of maint no one ever checks. I knew it was her because of the spear and the disguise was obvious.
For all intents and purposes I was removed from the round and I was indeed not revived. She then removed her disguise and carried on with her round.

I ahelped the issue but the admins online collectively decided I was valid for round removal for calling Prosper a slur, despite no rules or precedents existing about it.
Prosper was not an antagonist during this round.

Attack logs of Prosper and Victor and bystanders.
Spoiler:
Victor shoving a random guy
[2020-05-12 23:29:11.987] ATTACK: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) has shoved Keptyouwaitinghuh/(Baba) (NEWHP: 100) (Central Primary Hallway (133, 137, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:29:13.028] ATTACK: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) has shoved Keptyouwaitinghuh/(Baba) (NEWHP: 100) (Central Primary Hallway (135, 137, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:29:15.234] ATTACK: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) has shoved Keptyouwaitinghuh/(Baba) (NEWHP: 100) (Central Primary Hallway (135, 129, 2))

Prosper throwing a toolbox at Victor and attacking him when he throws it back.
[2020-05-12 23:29:47.889] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has thrown the mechanical toolbox (Primary Tool Storage (127, 134, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:29:48.025] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has threw and hit SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with the mechanical toolbox (NEWHP: 88) (Primary Tool Storage (127, 134, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:29:50.766] ATTACK: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) has thrown the mechanical toolbox (Primary Tool Storage (125, 138, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:29:50.853] ATTACK: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) has threw and hit Zawo/(Prosper Finely) with the mechanical toolbox (NEWHP: 91) (Primary Tool Storage (125, 138, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:30:09.423] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 70) (Primary Tool Storage (129, 136, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:30:09.818] ATTACK: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) has thrown the mechanical toolbox (Primary Tool Storage (129, 135, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:30:09.835] ATTACK: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) has threw and hit Zawo/(Prosper Finely) with the mechanical toolbox (NEWHP: 79) (Primary Tool Storage (129, 135, 2))

-snip- Some time passes. Prosper heals herself. The conflict could be over but she is not letting this one go.

Prosper running at Victor with a spear she crafted, trying to kill him. Deanna tried to stop her and got stabbed for it.
[2020-05-12 23:33:47.719] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 56.5) (Central Primary Hallway (150, 148, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:49.117] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 50.5) (Central Primary Hallway (150, 149, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:51.932] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 37.2) (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 157, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:53.562] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 19.4) (Fore Primary Hallway (151, 164, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:55.821] ATTACK: ShibaInuLord/(Deana Iwakura) has attacked Zawo/(Prosper Finely) with emergency toolbox (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 74.5) (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 164, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:56.087] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked ShibaInuLord/(Deana Iwakura) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 77.5) (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 165, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:57.807] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked ShibaInuLord/(Deana Iwakura) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 64) (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 164, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:59.651] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked ShibaInuLord/(Deana Iwakura) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 46.3) (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 168, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:59.983] ATTACK: ShibaInuLord/(Deana Iwakura) has shoved Zawo/(Prosper Finely) (NEWHP: 74.5) (Fore Primary Hallway (153, 169, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:01.916] ATTACK: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) has shoved Zawo/(Prosper Finely) (NEWHP: 74.5) (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 167, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:01.971] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 2.3) (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 169, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:02.773] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -15.7) (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 168, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:04.770] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -41.1) (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 167, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:07.908] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -21.2) (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 164, 2))

He then got dragged to the medbay to be healed.
[2020-05-12 23:34:52.324] ATTACK: TheSkywise/(Rex Razor) has CPRed SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) (NEWHP: -28.5) (Medbay Treatment Center (178, 94, 2))


For context the admins online had spawned a cursed die of fate, probably a TC trade I don't really know. It killed about 20 people this round.
SAY logs of Victor Beauregard
Spoiler:
[2020-05-12 23:29:40.867] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "idiot" (Primary Tool Storage (128, 135, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:32:40.761] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "so?" (Cargo Bay (176, 172, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:32:47.894] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "they still sell" (Cargo Bay (175, 172, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:43.395] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "what the fuck is going on here fags" (Central Primary Hallway (149, 148, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:48.890] EMOTE: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) screams! (Central Primary Hallway (149, 148, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:38:01.068] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "oh god" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:38:04.713] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "please kill Prosper Finely" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:38:07.321] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "now" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:38:21.756] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "he trew a toolbox at me once and then i threw it back" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:38:28.939] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "then he chased me across the station and i lost him" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:38:40.600] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "then he found me and tried killing me" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:39:00.220] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "please get me a new leg" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:39:11.554] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "Prosper Finely is rogue he cut my leg off and put me in crit" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:39:17.671] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "Prosper Finely is rogue" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:39:25.956] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "select my leg first bruh" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:39:34.375] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "dont touch my backpack" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:39:44.362] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "HEY" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:39:55.952] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "stop that" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:40:36.174] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "alright can i go now" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:40:48.420] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "what" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:41:12.049] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "thanks" (Medbay Treatment Center (177, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:41:26.228] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "fuck" (Medbay Treatment Center (178, 99, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:42:01.752] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "thanks" (Medbay Treatment Center (178, 95, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:42:10.603] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "IT'S HIM" (Medbay Treatment Center (181, 93, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:42:12.883] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "GET HIM" (Medbay Treatment Center (181, 93, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:42:18.014] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "You put me in crit" (Medbay Treatment Center (181, 93, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:42:25.433] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "Why?" (Medbay Treatment Center (181, 93, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:42:27.781] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "You started it" (Medbay Treatment Center (181, 93, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:42:30.242] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "Suck my dick" (Medbay Treatment Center (181, 93, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:42:40.244] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "SEC TO MEDBAY!!!!" (Medbay Treatment Center (181, 95, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:42:53.989] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "sec" (Medbay Treatment Center (181, 93, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:42:57.608] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "he went right" (Medbay Treatment Center (181, 93, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:43:06.570] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "Prosper Finely" (Medbay Central (190, 91, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:43:30.675] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "Cut off my leg" (Starboard Quarter Maintenance (197, 77, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:43:36.456] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "he has a spear" (Starboard Quarter Maintenance (196, 77, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:43:39.087] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "which is contraband" (Starboard Quarter Maintenance (196, 77, 2))

-snip- the rest isnt relevant. Cult won the round.

My SAY logs. Some of my messages are in double because i didnt type properly or they got sent as something else because of crank addiction withdrawals.
Spoiler:
[2020-05-12 23:30:08.199] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "why is prosper trying to kill someone" (Primary Tool Storage (130, 134, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:30:14.630] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "prosper rogue" (Primary Tool Storage (131, 135, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:30:20.850] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "prosper trying to kill cargo tech" (Central Primary Hallway (134, 132, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:31:00.647] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "saw prosper randomly attacking a cargo tech" (Port Primary Hallway (121, 130, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:31:06.222] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) ":; saw prosper randomly attacking a cargo tech" (Port Primary Hallway (121, 130, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:31:11.318] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "I saw prosper randomly attacking a cargo tech" (Port Primary Hallway (118, 130, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:31:34.198] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "yeah...." (Port Maintenance (103, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:32:47.621] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "bad die" (Central Primary Hallway (148, 149, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:04.943] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "PROSPER KILLING DEANNA NOW" (Fore Primary Hallway (151, 161, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:13.058] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "PROSPER ROGUE AS FUCK!!" (Atrium (150, 162, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:32.590] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "nyal is dragging the die" (Central Primary Hallway (170, 136, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:36:41.655] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "doc" (Medbay Central (165, 99, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:36:48.271] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "i got a strange addiction" (Medbay Central (170, 92, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:36:55.201] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "like the billie eilish song" (Medbay Central (173, 90, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:37:03.330] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "what do i do" (Medbay Central (172, 90, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:37:18.270] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "ok" (Medbay Central (174, 90, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:37:32.585] GAME: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) has teleported from (Medbay Central (171, 90, 2)) to (Bridge (162, 139, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:37:41.136] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "hewwo" (Bridge (160, 139, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:37:42.536] GAME: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) has teleported from (Bridge (162, 139, 2)) to (Medbay Central (171, 90, 2))

[2020-05-12 23:38:09.182] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "why did prosper attack you" (Medbay Treatment Center (179, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:38:22.364] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "why did prosper attack you?" (Medbay Treatment Center (179, 94, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:38:32.953] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "haha prosper is a dickhead" (Medbay Treatment Center (179, 94, 2))

-snip- some time passes, i say random stuff about doomguy and being hardcore

[2020-05-12 23:43:47.639] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "prosper is a nigger, it's in her genes to attack people at random" (Central Primary Hallway (140, 148, 2))

-snip- me screaming at sec because they're arresting nial for dragging around a cursed die of fate and telling people to roll it. AI tries to get Nial arrested for it.

[2020-05-12 23:46:16.940] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "AI" (Central Primary Hallway (154, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:21.264] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "they roll willignly.." (Central Primary Hallway (154, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:25.829] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "THEY ROLL WILLINGLY" (Central Primary Hallway (154, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:29.525] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "it's self harm!!" (Central Primary Hallway (151, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:39.159] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "ai you're a nigger law 2" (Central Primary Hallway (148, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:41.819] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "ai you're a nigger law 2" (Central Primary Hallway (145, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:53.107] EMOTE: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) screams! (Central Primary Hallway (134, 109, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:56.927] EMOTE: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) screams! (Central Primary Hallway (138, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:59.795] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "PROSPER" (Research Division (139, 102, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:09.230] EMOTE: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) gasps! (Central Primary Hallway (137, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:10.336] EMOTE: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) seizes up and falls limp, her eyes dead and lifeless... (Central Primary Hallway (135, 105, 2))


SAY logs of Prosper
Spoiler:
[2020-05-12 23:30:25.351] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "shut up moron" (Library (128, 122, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:31:38.793] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "dude was a dick Jordyn is just mad about somethin probably" (Medbay Treatment Center (183, 96, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:17.389] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "he called me a fag" (Port Bow Maintenance (139, 182, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:58.728] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "I'll roll it when it gets stronger" (Central Primary Hallway (134, 131, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:36:17.168] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "why is it red now" (Library (131, 122, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:39:07.212] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "skeletal station" (Central Primary Hallway (134, 121, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:39:41.756] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "victor was asking for it" (Central Primary Hallway (168, 144, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:41:25.386] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "hellooo" (Medbay Central (181, 91, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:41:28.884] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "do you have any spare IDs" (Medbay Central (181, 91, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:41:43.961] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "I dunno, dead bodies" (Medbay Central (181, 91, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:41:59.149] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "why are you being that way" (Medbay Central (181, 91, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:42:13.346] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "what bitch" (Medbay Central (181, 91, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:42:15.913] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "you wanna start with me again" (Medbay Central (181, 91, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:42:22.540] SAY: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) "I'd do it again" (Medbay Central (181, 91, 2))

-snip- the rest isn't relevant, it's about the cult.


Attack logs of Prosper killing me and hiding my body. I did not attack Prosper at all this round, and thanks to Gene Ball for trying to save me.
Spoiler:
[2020-05-12 23:46:49.976] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 71.5) (Central Primary Hallway (134, 109, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:53.468] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 58) (Central Primary Hallway (134, 109, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:53.923] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) has attacked Zawo/(Prosper Finely) with Giggles von Honkerton (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 86) (Central Primary Hallway (134, 107, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:54.052] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 44.5) (Central Primary Hallway (134, 108, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:55.634] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 34) (Central Primary Hallway (134, 104, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:57.400] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 20.7) (Central Primary Hallway (138, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:58.822] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 7.2) (Central Primary Hallway (139, 104, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:59.903] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -10.7) (Research Division (139, 103, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:01.295] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) passive grab (NEWHP: -10.7) (Research Division (139, 102, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:03.120] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -28.4) (Research Division (139, 101, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:04.383] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -46) (Research Division (139, 100, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:06.686] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) passive grab (NEWHP: -46) (Research Division (139, 101, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:08.003] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -63.4) (Central Primary Hallway (139, 104, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:09.207] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -73.9) (Central Primary Hallway (137, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:10.099] ATTACK: Nabski/(Gene Ball) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -85.9) (Central Primary Hallway (136, 106, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:10.370] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) has died (BRUTE: 217.4, BURN: 0, TOX: 15, OXY: 0.666667, CLONE: 0) (Central Primary Hallway (135, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:10.379] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) has died (BRUTE: 217.4, BURN: 0, TOX: 15, OXY: 0.666667, CLONE: 0) (Central Primary Hallway (135, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:10.380] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -103.9) (Central Primary Hallway (134, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:11.299] ATTACK: Nabski/(Gene Ball) has attacked Zawo/(Prosper Finely) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 74) (Central Primary Hallway (134, 106, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:11.420] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -104.1) (Central Primary Hallway (133, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:23.714] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has grabbed *no key*/(Jordyn Stamos) passive grab (NEWHP: -104.1) (Central Primary Hallway (133, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:28.209] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has kicked *no key*/(Jordyn Stamos) (NEWHP: -104.1) (Port Maintenance (121, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:29.941] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has kicked *no key*/(Jordyn Stamos) (NEWHP: -114.9) (Port Maintenance (116, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:30.973] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has kicked *no key*/(Jordyn Stamos) (NEWHP: -121.7) (Port Maintenance (113, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:31.981] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has kicked *no key*/(Jordyn Stamos) (NEWHP: -133.8) (Port Maintenance (111, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:32.942] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has kicked *no key*/(Jordyn Stamos) (NEWHP: -141.9) (Port Maintenance (108, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:50.192] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has stripped the tattered maroon jumpsuit off *no key*/(Jordyn Stamos) (NEWHP: -141.9) (Port Maintenance (78, 103, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:47:55.299] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has kicked *no key*/(Jordyn Stamos) (NEWHP: -141.9) (Port Maintenance (76, 105, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:52:38.709] ATTACK: *no key*/(Jordyn Stamos) attacked herself to a Muscle Spasm (Port Maintenance (76, 106, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:52:50.978] ATTACK: *no key*/(Jordyn Stamos) attacked herself to a Muscle Spasm (Port Maintenance (76, 106, 2))

-snip- More Muscle Spasms.


Where she hid my body, without the jumpsuit to prevent doctors from finding me using suit sensors. She dragged me all the way from the hallway to put me in this remote locker in maint. This is round removal.
Spoiler:
Image

Ahelp log with the admins, my initial ahelp got cut off from the logs I saved so it's missing. And half the messages were sent the round after.
Spoiler:
PM to-Admins: Did you guys miss my ahelp about Prosper killing me for no reason in the hallway? All I did to her this shift was reporting her over the radio when she was attacking someone

Admin PM from-Unit2E: It was valid, sorry for taking a while to get back at you for it. Less gamer words in the future aimed at other people will help, too

PM to-Admins: hmmm valid because I called her a nigger..... hmmmm.... I call everyone "nigger".... even white people.... :'(

Admin PM from-Unit2E: Repeatedly one person is a bit much, though. Call less people nigger, really
NOTE : The person was not called slurs "repeatedly" but only once. Did this admin check logs?

Admin PM from-Shaps: take it as a hint to stop being shit

PM to-Admins: What, it's not against the rules to call people nigger??? So she literally round removed me for calling her "nigger" when she happens to be black skinned.... All I did was reporting her crimes over the radio. She killbaited a newbie with 3 connections.
NOTE : I didn't check properly on scrubby, he had in fact 10 connections at the time. Which is pretty much the same.

Admin PM from-Shaps: don't be shit to people

PM to-Admins: Shaps I think just telling me to "not be shit" doesn't mean much. Prosper killbaited a newbie with 3 connections, I say over the radio "prosper killing people!!!" and I call her a nigger and i am valid for round removal? When I didnt attack her and she wasnt antag.... There is something I don't understand here

Admin PM from-Shaps: just don't drop hard r's on people bro

PM to-Admins: What about it? It's kinda retarded Someone can just make a black character and kill people who call them a nigger. Or make a lizard character and kill people who call them a "ligger".... I didn't cause any harm by calling her "nigger"? I even called other people "nigger" this round. Even the AI...

Admin PM from-Shaps: your takeaway from this is that you shouldn't be calling anyone a nigger. it's incredibly easy to just not throw fighting words like that at people, and i make it a policy that if you go out of your way to be a dickhead to someone above and beyond normal circumstances, i see no reason to intervene on your behalf after

Admin PM from-Shaps: if you want to try and Tornadium Defence what I'm saying by replying "so i can just fuck up anyone if they call me a nigger", well, yeah

PM to-Admins: How was I a dickhead for calling someone a nigger.... She just happens to be black is all. You can check all my logs and I call everyone a nigger. It's not taboo and we havent banned any gamer word. Enforcing an unexisting policy of making people who say gamer words valid is bad faith... If I understand correctly your second message you're saying I can really kill people for calling me a nigger? lol

Admin PM from-Shaps: how hard is it to just not say it, because it's probably easier than complaining every time someone does you dirty for it

PM to-Admins: Dude there's nothing taboo about it, it isnt even banned as the policy threads were closed. I say "nigger" once and I get killed for it... Man this is a crazy world


My understanding of the situation is that :
1) Prosper tried to kill Victor for calling her a "fag" (according to her) and removed me from the round for calling her a "nigger". She was obviously acting in bad faith during the whole round.
2) Admins online did not punish Prosper for killbaiting Victor, and removing me from the round because according to them her acts were justified as she was acting in response of being called mean words. Words which were only said once. She was not harassed. In fact she was the one doing the harassment.
3) Unit2E and Shaps did not make a decision according to the rules but according to their own personnal biases.
4) Shaps told me it's totally ok to remove someone from the round if I am a black character and people use slurs to talk about me. He did not elaborate on being called "ligger" as a lizard but I assume he has the same opinion about it?



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Re: [Shaps and Unit2E] Eskjjlj - Biased ruling

Postby Shaps-cloud » Wed May 13, 2020 5:14 pm #561726

I stand by my and unit's ruling and have nothing else to add unless the headmins vote to overturn it
P.S. Shoot Dr. Allen on sight and dissolve his body in acid. Don't burn it.

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PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Wed May 13, 2020 7:33 pm.
Reason: Policy Discussion was resolved by a headmin. Sorry!

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Re: [Shaps and Unit2E] Eskjjlj - Biased ruling

Postby Nabski » Wed May 13, 2020 9:16 pm #561745

Chiming in simply because I showed up and was called out in the attack logs. From my perspective a random person was getting attacked by someone who had gone through the effort to get a spear, and the random person was not fighting back. I skirmished with them for a moment to try to help what looked like the non aggressor and then they ran were dragged off into maintenance.

I promptly forgot about it and went back to trying to chase down the die of fate.

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Re: [Shaps and Unit2E] Eskjjlj - Biased ruling

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Wed May 13, 2020 11:18 pm #561755

It is worth noting Prosper is an assistant main static well known for just barely avoiding self-antag gameplay ("I can de-shoe everyone as long as I don't kill them it's fine")

If Shaps didn't know this about Prosper (and thus take it into account for his decision making) I would be quite surprised.

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Re: [Shaps and Unit2E] Eskjjlj - Biased ruling

Postby Shaps-cloud » Thu May 14, 2020 1:00 am #561757

Well they ended up eating a ban from me in a separate escalation incident four hours later so if the issue is their long term behavior then I guess it came home to roost
P.S. Shoot Dr. Allen on sight and dissolve his body in acid. Don't burn it.

Image

PostThis post was deleted by Armhulen on Thu May 14, 2020 2:10 am.
Reason: post about liberals and the state or something?

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Fri May 15, 2020 9:46 am.
Reason: Peanut posting

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Re: [Shaps and Unit2E] Eskjjlj - Biased ruling

Postby Rohesie » Thu May 14, 2020 12:56 pm #561794

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:
Shaps-cloud wrote:Well they ended up eating a ban from me in a separate escalation incident four hours later so if the issue is their long term behavior then I guess it came home to roost

Oh no my argument was simply that the guy was obviously kill baiting using "oh goodie he said the word I can pretend I was just offended when I murder them for no reason".


Eskjjlj wrote:My understanding of the situation is that :
2) Admins online did not punish Prosper for killbaiting Victor, and removing me from the round because according to them her acts were justified as she was acting in response of being called mean words. Words which were only said once. She was not harassed. In fact she was the one doing the harassment.
3) Unit2E and Shaps did not make a decision according to the rules but according to their own personnal biases.
4) Shaps told me it's totally ok to remove someone from the round if I am a black character and people use slurs to talk about me. He did not elaborate on being called "ligger" as a lizard but I assume he has the same opinion about it?


To give a bit of context here:

Eskjjlj wrote:[2020-05-12 23:43:47.639] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) "prosper is a nigger, it's in her genes to attack people at random" (Central Primary Hallway (140, 148, 2))
Last edited by Arianya on Fri May 15, 2020 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Argumentation removed

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Fri May 15, 2020 9:46 am.
Reason: Peanut posting

PostThis post was deleted by Armhulen on Thu May 14, 2020 9:59 pm.
Reason: peanut post

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Re: [Shaps and Unit2E] Eskjjlj - Biased ruling

Postby Unit2E » Thu May 14, 2020 9:36 pm #561826

I have nothing to add to this. Refer to Shaps' and Rohesie's replies for my sentiment.

PostThis post was deleted by capn_monkeypaw on Thu May 14, 2020 10:16 pm.
Reason: Peanut

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Re: [Shaps and Unit2E] Eskjjlj - Biased ruling

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Thu May 14, 2020 11:03 pm #561832

I was trying to find precedent on this, and this thread while very different seems to be the last major instance this general topic came up.
Inside an admin quoted two of the apparently most recent precedents.

Nervere on 11/14/2018 wrote:We have no interest in censoring the right to expression of others.
Other servers that have rules that restrict IC bigotry may better suit your interest, but this will never happen on /tg/.

Hulkamania on 08/21/2019 wrote:I'll borrow from Merriam Webster's second definition of harass:

"To create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct "

/tg/ has always been about free speech, allowing people to say whatever stupid slur their heart desires, and no one is really bent out of shape about that. The issue arises when slurs become targeted, specifically used with intent to hurt anothers feelings in a very personal way. If you are not part of a minority group yourself, it can be genuinely difficult to understand what it's like to be treated differently than other people just for existing as someone of another skin color, gender identity, or sexuality. We have never and will never allow people to harass others freely on the server. Insults are fine, strong language is fine, but when you go beyond surface level trash talking and venture into very personal territory with the intent of singling out specific people, that's when it becomes an issue.

If you spammed the N word in chat repeatedly, that's one thing. If you discovered one of our players was black, then specifically referred to them as the N word from that point onwards, that's another issue entirely. This thread has been made in response to one specific instance regarding another player that is not entirely resolved as of the time of typing. This is not about some strange trend people are noticing, this appears on a surface level to be people afraid of losing their ability to be genuinely hurtful to other human beings just because you don't have to see them face to face.

We are not policing language, we are not making changes to police language, we are not adding policy that enforces the policing of language. We are policing the community and those who are in it who only have an interest in making other peoples experiences lesser. This is a 2d spaceman game, we're here to have fun and make people go horizontal, not remind each other that the world is a shitty place to live in and our fellow humans have the capacity to make it worse.

If you yourself are being personally harassed, message me or another head admin on the forums or discord so we can talk about resolving it. Sometimes we aren't aware that something is going on, but as soon as we are we will act on it to the best of our ability.

Stay safe out there spessmen.

The ahelp exchange started out with "don't repeatedly call a person that" implying eskjjlj had repeatedly done this, something the logs for this round don't seem to verify. Is there missing context here for this round, or did you have knowledge of eskjjlj doing this to a single player repeatedly in prior rounds?
Last edited by Arianya on Fri May 15, 2020 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Fri May 15, 2020 9:47 am.
Reason: You're not adding any new information in this post. Peanut post

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Re: [Shaps and Unit2E] Eskjjlj - Biased ruling

Postby Arianya » Fri May 15, 2020 9:50 am #561889

To be clear, the fact that the policy discussion was closed does not mean that argumentation about this case or general policy should move in here. If you want to argue with each other about the case then General Chat is open as usual.

Abide by peanut policy, please. I've had to edit or delete several posts in here that were straying into argumentation and open-ended policy discussion. I appreciate that this is always going to be a hot button issue for some people but this isn't the place for it.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

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Re: [Shaps and Unit2E] Eskjjlj - Biased ruling

Postby capn_monkeypaw » Sat May 23, 2020 2:01 am #562556

Before we delve into the larger questions raised by this complaint, let's establish a base set of facts drawn from this round's logs:

1. Eskjjlj directed a racial slur against other players twice during this round, once towards Prosper/Zawo and once towards the AI:

Code: Select all
[2020-05-12 23:43:47.686] TCOMMS: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) [Common] "Prosper is a nigger, it's in her genes to attack people at random" (Central Primary Hallway (140, 148, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:46:41.861] TCOMMS: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos) [Common] "Ai you're a nigger law 2" (Central Primary Hallway (145, 105, 2))

2. Zawo was dishonest about the number of times Eskjjlj used this slur in reference to them, and appears to have repeatedly cited other players' use of slurs as pretense for attacking them.

The first such incident occurred with SigmundSigmeister/Victor Beauregard:

Code: Select all
[2020-05-12 23:33:43.395] SAY: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) "what the fuck is going on here fags" (Central Primary Hallway (149, 148, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:47.719] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 56.5)  (Central Primary Hallway (150, 148, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:48.890] EMOTE: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) screams! (Central Primary Hallway (149, 148, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:49.117] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 50.5)  (Central Primary Hallway (150, 149, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:51.932] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 37.2)  (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 157, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:52.241] ATTACK: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) has thrown the emergency toolbox  (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 159, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:33:53.562] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 19.4)  (Fore Primary Hallway (151, 164, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:01.916] ATTACK: SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) has shoved Zawo/(Prosper Finely) (NEWHP: 74.5)  (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 167, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:01.971] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 2.3)  (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 169, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:02.773] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -15.7)  (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 168, 2))
[2020-05-12 23:34:04.770] ATTACK: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) has attacked SigmundSigmeister/(Victor Beauregard) with spear (Wielded) (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -41.1)  (Fore Primary Hallway (152, 167, 2))

After being called out over common for the attack, Prosper/Zawo offered this explanation:

Code: Select all
[2020-05-12 23:34:17.428] TCOMMS: Zawo/(Prosper Finely) [Common] "He called me a fag" (Port Bow Maintenance (139, 182, 2))

The second incident was, of course, their conflict with Eskjjlj. When asked what had happened between them via ahelp, they responded:

Code: Select all
[2020-05-12 23:49:41.077] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Unit2E/(Catherine Hurst)->Zawo/(Prosper Finely): Hey bud, what happened between you and Jordyn?
[2020-05-12 23:49:51.146] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Zawo/(Prosper Finely)->Unit2E/(Catherine Hurst): called me a nigger repeatedly

Whether Zawo cited these slurs in bad faith or genuinely felt offended enough to respond with violence remains open to interpretation.

3. Unit2E - and to a lesser extent, Shaps - were too quick to dismiss the merits of Eskjjlj's ahelp:

Code: Select all
[2020-05-13 00:01:52.227] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #4: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos): Did you guys miss my ahelp about Prosper killing me for no reason in the hallway? All I did to her this shift was reporting her over the radio when she was attacking someone
[2020-05-13 00:04:26.274] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Unit2E/(Catherine Hurst)->Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos): It was valid, sorry for taking a while to get back at you for it. Less gamer words in the future aimed at other people will help, too
[2020-05-13 00:05:07.089] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos)->Unit2E/(Catherine Hurst): hmmm valid because I called her a nigger..... hmmmm.... I call everyone "nigger".... even white people.... :'(
[2020-05-13 00:05:38.739] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Unit2E/(Catherine Hurst)->Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos): Repeatedly one person is a bit much, though. Call less people nigger, really
[2020-05-13 00:05:46.376] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Shaps/(Beatrix Abode)->Eskjjlj/(Jordyn Stamos): take it as a hint to  stop being shit

The logs appear to indicate that Unit2E took Zawo/Prosper at their word and did not further investigate the incident.



So, can a player's in-character use of repugnant slurs render them effectively valid?

The answer to that question is, quite frustratingly, maybe.

This game offers its players no shortage of obnoxious methods for tormenting each other. Consider, for example, a clown honking their horn in the HoP's ear. Or an assistant tabling the poor sap standing next to them. Or a shitsec officer stunbatoning you and walking away.

None of these examples taken as a single action would render the offending player valid for violent retribution.

But those examples repeated five times? Ten times? Twenty times? Depending on context, quite possibly.

The use of repugnant slurs is no different. It's impossible to draw a hard line, as the threshold is variable depending on circumstances and context, but we feel that it is safe to say that Eskjjlj's conduct during this round did not rise to meet such a standard.



Both Unit2E and Shaps are experienced, dedicated and professional admins who were a bit too quick to accept a (frankly) highly-plausible explanation from a dishonest player.

We trust that this thorough review of the facts will serve as a reminder to them - and the rest of the admin team - to not take players involved in conflicts at their word and to always perform the due diligence of logdiving before rendering a ruling.

With this understood, we are upholding this complaint on its merits but see no need to take further action.

Headmin votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes
Phuzzylodgik: Yes
TWATICUS: Yes


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