/tg/Station 13

It's gotten out of hand. Too many people are incapable of making reasonable complaints about admin events and it's bordering on shitting up the entire process and complaint forum by bogging it down with pointless complaints that inevitably cannot lead to anything.

Admin events are not something you file an official complaint about. They weren't before, and I'm not sure how it started, but they shouldn't be now either. From now on they are getting trashed. I'm not saying bad events aren't a thing, but they are never really going to result in problems.

I'm sure this is going to upset plenty of people but you have the official event workshop thread here which would value your criticism and ideas, admin feedback for actual problems and singulo for bitching.

The majority of complaints have been almost entirely emotional, based on one shitty round. Normally people get pissed at RNG for killing them but if an admin touches a button suddenly there is a solid tangible person to be fucking furious at. A round is a couple hours long at most. If you can't handle not having spessmans exactly how you like it for two hours you need to chill out.

It's just really depressing when the admin complaint forum is nothing but bitching about events and all of the valid complaints float around on singulo forever unresolved because people are either paranoid that they will get black bagged by the admin conspiracy and stuffed in the back of the van or just prefer a place where their facts don't need verification.

Admins will still be held accountable for events, they just aren't going to be immediately deadminned for them like an admin complaint would call for. Admins are encouraged to push buttons. The game gets stale as fuck without them. There's a reason Bagil is desperate for admins all the time.

TL;DR: If you have a problem with an event, it no longer goes here. Use Event Workshop for critique and ideas, use admin feedback to talk about a specific admin's events, and use singulo to bitch. Remember you can also talk to any admin by adminhelping, finding an admin you trust and PMing them or in #supportbus.

Feel free to ask questions but this thread is obviously going to be heavily moderated.

Can we get definition of what an "event" is? Conversation is probably pointless without it.

We shouldn't use the same term to describe Tedward making his friend invincible and warping him around as we use to describe legitimately fun and well organized shit like your shuttle builds/death gauntlet flights.

The spectrum of what gets classified as "events" is way too broad.

The issue is they are almost impossible to define. It can be a station destroying apocalypse or a single item or character in a single department or even targeted towards a single person.

Tedwards thing was very clearly not an event and just injection random adminness into a situation, but it's hard to pinpoint why.

The general gist of this post is that if an admin did something that indirectly got you killed, it's not worth whining about. Making new antags, pushing buttons, whatever. If they hop in a mech themselves or confer an incredibly unfair advantage to existing players on the station that would would be an issue. So "HE MADE NUKE OPS ON MY BLOB ROUND" wouldn't be ok. "HE REVIVED THE GUY I KILLED AND TURNING HIM INTO A DEATHSQUADDIE" would.

Dying should upset people that drastically. Admin Complaints should focus on administration. The attitude and conduct of OOC actions by admins like bad bans or actual abuse.

I don't think You'll ever stop that particular group in the playerbase that just Screams the second a button is pushed. Even if it benefits them directly.

Stickymayhem wrote:Admins will still be held accountable for events, they just aren't going to be immediately deadminned for them like an admin complaint would call for.

If we're going to be more strict about people raising issues with admin events, can we also be more strict about what "accountability" means? I think the biggest distinction between event and abuse is that an event is something you own up to and welcome feedback on.

I'd support implementing a policy of "If you press a button, post on the forum that you did so after the round." It would also probably help make things more constructive if the admin responsible were the one to set the stage of the discussion instead of a complaining player.

There has been a lot of uncalled for bitching lately, but there has also been a lot of button pressing, some of which has been pretty shitty.
If people don't complain somewhere, there's zero accountability - you won't even know WHO did it, without getting another admin to check logs.

That is impractical and tedious to be honest. If you're trying to get admins to fill out a form everytime they do an event it's just going to end up discouraging events and slowing everything down.

I agree to the extent that admins should always be owning up to their rounds at the end. If someone asks what was who, they deserve an answer.

Lumi an admin checking the logs is how we always check complaints. As I said, complain on supportbus, admin feedback, directly to any admin or headmin you trust, or on singulo. We watch everything so it's always going to get back to someone willing to help.

The ratio of time it takes to resolve things versus how useful they are is just completely skewed. Yes we may be losing one in twenty good event complaints but those could be suited to any of the other mediums I suggested as well. It just bogs down everything.

Did the other headmins agree on this or was this just you sticky?

This is my favorite policy of this administration so far. Keep up the good work.

This constant pointless divvying up of forums so admins are less accountable is the most shameless divide and conquer strategy I have seen enacted on a forum.

Might as well say their complaints are legitimate enough you cannot delete them yet you wish to avoid reading them so you can ignore them more easily.

The relentless march to "resolve" admin complaints leaves a forum full of locked threads. Immediately looking into this forum reveals it to be an utter joke for all manner of complaints not just those about events, I frankly wouldn't fault anyone new who saw it for immediately turning around and leaving.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA holy shit.

"It's an event, I swear!"

have that many admins even been deadminned over events? I can't think of any

Stickymayhem wrote:obviously going to be heavily moderated.

Because of course it would be laughable to allow dissent about a policy meant to silence dissent

What's the big deal with the current system? If someone makes a shitty thread about an event, it gets locked. If it's a valid complaint, the admin has to explain their actions. Holy shit, the system is working. Why exactly does it need to be changed? It's not exactly a pressing issue.

This is just sad

oranges wrote:have that many admins even been deadminned over events? I can't think of any

Not that I know of. Which demonstrates the pointlessness of those threads.

I'm sick of the week long clusterfucks where people abuse every avenue to keep their shit open and generating drama as long as possible. The result is the same, this just saves us a week of nothing getting done and everyone being angry. The issue with the current system is that valid complaint or not, locking things causes colossal shitstorms resulting in clusterfucks over threads that don't need to exist in the first place. People tended to be incapable of reasonable discussion about events, so now all I'm leaving is reasonable discussion.

Incomptinence wrote:This constant pointless divvying up of forums so admins are less accountable is the most shameless divide and conquer strategy I have seen enacted on a forum.

Might as well say their complaints are legitimate enough you cannot delete them yet you wish to avoid reading them so you can ignore them more easily.

The relentless march to "resolve" admin complaints leaves a forum full of locked threads. Immediately looking into this forum reveals it to be an utter joke for all manner of complaints not just those about events, I frankly wouldn't fault anyone new who saw it for immediately turning around and leaving.

I don't want to avoid reading shit, which is why I gave like four other options. Relentless march to resolve admin complaints? The fuck are you even talking about of course there's an impetus to resolve admin complaints instead of just leaving them up forever with no solution.

ThatSlyFox wrote:Did the other headmins agree on this or was this just you sticky?

Two agreed, one wasn't around.

Stickymayhem wrote:

oranges wrote:have that many admins even been deadminned over events? I can't think of any

Not that I know of. Which demonstrates the pointlessness of those threads.

Then obviously this is the policy that needs to be changed.

Remember guys. This is the person who, of all available pictures, chose a cartoon character wearing a schutzstaffel hat to represent who they are on the internet. Not a coincidence. It's even more depressing when you realize you're required to be over 18 to play here.

All this is meaningless without public logs anyway. All relevant information is concealed from interested parties to protect those with power. Just like in real world.

i am detecting precisely no ulterior motive whatsoever here

You realize public logs are happening right? They've been confirmed weeks ago.

Or do you prefer to exist in a world where you're oppressed so you can continue raging at THE MAN keeping you down.

Predicting response: Promised weeks ago, not happened yet.

Stickymayhem wrote:You realize public logs are happening right? They've been confirmed weeks ago.

Where are those, anyway? As you say, it's been "weeks". They're fairly useless for this purpose anyway without asay to give context and justification for what's going on.

Stickymayhem wrote: Admins will still be held accountable for events, they just aren't going to be immediately deadminned for them like an admin complaint would call for.

Also this particular line is bizarre. It's like shutting down FNR because "we're not gonna permaban players over one round of griff"

I mean grey areas are possible aren't they?

Kor wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote: Admins will still be held accountable for events, they just aren't going to be immediately deadminned for them like an admin complaint would call for.

Also this particular line is bizarre. It's like shutting down FNR because "we're not gonna permaban players over one round of griff"

I mean grey areas are possible aren't they?

There's clearly a difference complaints about events and complaints about admin behaviour. A cursory glance at the forum will tell you that. My point is if we start punishing admins for touching the round no one is going to bother investing effort in events in the first place and they'll just get worse or stagnate. I'm trying to direct the pounding at the wall into channels that can actually improve events. If they can't be constructive they don't get to be destructive.

Amnestik wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:You realize public logs are happening right? They've been confirmed weeks ago.

Where are those, anyway? As you say, it's been "weeks". They're fairly useless for this purpose anyway without asay to give context and justification for what's going on.

If you'd like to volunteer your services in setting up that clusterfuck from scratch be my guest. Things don't just magically happen whenever you want them to.

Stickymayhem wrote: If you'd like to volunteer your services in setting up that clusterfuck from scratch be my guest. Things don't just magically happen whenever you want them to.

Ok. What needs to be done?

mosquitoman wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote: If you'd like to volunteer your services in setting up that clusterfuck from scratch be my guest. Things don't just magically happen whenever you want them to.

Ok. What needs to be done?

If you can actually help talk to MSO he's the one setting that all up. I don't do database codey things.

Let's top getting off topic. If you aren't addressing what's going on in the op I'll delete shit

Stickymayhem wrote: If you'd like to volunteer your services in setting up that clusterfuck from scratch be my guest. Things don't just magically happen whenever you want them to.

A progress report or an explanation for the length of time it's taking would be nice.

You can't very well use them as an excuse for this policy if we don't even have them yet, either.

Stickymayhem wrote:
Admins will still be held accountable for events, they just aren't going to be immediately deadminned for them like an admin complaint would call for. Admins are encouraged to push buttons. The game gets stale as fuck without them. There's a reason Bagil is desperate for admins all the time.

Every admin Ever:

There are a number of very valid criticisms regarding what passes as an "event."

Before I elaborate, there's nothing wrong with breaking up the monotony with an interesting twist or unusual scenario. The trouble with this is that there's also nothing approaching monotony anymore. It seems that every other round has some form of admin interference, and usually on a very large scale. There is something inherently damaging about fucking about with the game on this level, and the influx of complaints about events seem (to me at least) like a symptom of a desire for less of it.

You say that forcing more accountability and planning will 'discourage' "events." Good, frankly. There should be no reason for randomly editing sprites, calling states and sending immersion-breaking messages, memes, etc. IC. If we're allowed the privilege of being GMs we have the responsibility of leading by example; the majority of players should be able to trust that we won't use our gamebreaking tools for a cheap laugh. SS13 is a goofy game, and our server is lighthearted, but it's despicable to see stereotypical goon-tier behavior from some admins and coders.

If you can't come up with a logical IC reason for why what you're doing is happening to the station, just stop.

Obviously this doesn't apply every time someone presses a button, but regulation is not a bad thing.
Call people out for doing stupid shit. Stop doing stupid shit because other people get away with it.
We don't have any quality control and players are right to be upset over people slapping the keyboard because they're bored.

I'd just like to point out that "The Space Wizard Federation hit us with a blast of magic" works as an excuse for pretty much anything.

John_Oxford wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:
Admins will still be held accountable for events, they just aren't going to be immediately deadminned for them like an admin complaint would call for. Admins are encouraged to push buttons. The game gets stale as fuck without them. There's a reason Bagil is desperate for admins all the time.

Every admin Ever:

This perfectly visually represents the overload of information we get as we attempt to admin. The forum is the flashing light and the vocal minorities are the droning alarm that really isnt helping.

peoplearestrange wrote: This perfectly visually represents the overload of information we get as we attempt to admin. The forum is the flashing light and the vocal minorities are the droning alarm that really isnt helping.

Not really. We usually have like 4 admins trying to respond to each adminhelp these days because there are so many of us.

Maybe you should press less buttons. Rounds are made by the players and when some admin spawned anything interferes with what players (especially antags) are doing, round after round, people will not like it.

It's really not hard to understand. The feedback threads exist for a reason. 95% of the time the complaints appear when admins spawn something overwhelmingly destructive. The rational reaction would be to stop doing that. The worst possible reaction is attempting to forbid complaining.

This might be true if most of the complaints weren't from the, as said many times now, the vocal few. You're only see one side of a small portion of players who visit the forums and then actually complain, to think that was the majority would be completely deluded. Though I'm beginning to think thats what a lot of us are.

Most people don't make complaints because they know there is zero admin accountability.

Almost every complaint in history is from a "vocal minority". Complaints vary investment in complaints vary even in democratic elections where majorities are needed what drives voters is often diverse, you don't wait for everyone to be mad at you before doing something that is like French monarchy prior to having their heads loped off kind of policy.

"Guys, people don't like our events! Do we change our events to be well planned out and liked by the players?" "Nope, we'll stifle criticism and ban dissenting voices!" - leaked logs from #adminbus, don't ask me where I got them

Vocal minority strikes again, turns out to include the majority of server population.

Also there is a long and great thread about this on singulo, where several admins reveal their true colours and show how little respect they have for anyone, basically shitposting all over the place and attempting to derail all discussion.

>taking anything on singulo at face value

Ricotez wrote:>taking anything on singulo at face value

You might as well say the same about this forum. Players post on both, there is no difference. This is exactly the problem I'm talking about: "lel it's on singulo so it doesn't count".

Incomptinence wrote:Almost every complaint in history is from a "vocal minority". Complaints vary investment in complaints vary even in democratic elections where majorities are needed what drives voters is often diverse, you don't wait for everyone to be mad at you before doing something that is like French monarchy prior to having their heads loped off kind of policy.

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this

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:

Incomptinence wrote:Almost every complaint in history is from a "vocal minority". Complaints vary investment in complaints vary even in democratic elections where majorities are needed what drives voters is often diverse, you don't wait for everyone to be mad at you before doing something that is like French monarchy prior to having their heads loped off kind of policy.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this

Now that this fallacy has been debunked, I'm anticipating the creation of a new one to fob off complaints with.

you guys are so fucking obsessed with seeing admin conspiracies everywhere that you

oh for fuck's sake I give up, yes there is an admin conspiracy, get out of this community before they lock you into the gulag

Why is this "conspiracy" meme so popular? Is it so unlikely that admins could discuss something in secret?

Did you know that the term "conspiracy theory" is in itself an effect of conspiracy? It's a result of one of CIA's psy ops as was revealed in declassified documents. The goal was to convince the public to believe that anyone suspecting the government of conspiring against their citizens must be off his rocker. Worked like a charm. Who would've thought that those who participate in conspiracies would like everyone to believe that conspiracies are a myth?

I dunno why we even consider "people fuck around when given power and no oversight" to be a conspiracy instead of a given.

Why this is a "Admin Conspiracy"

People with power fucking around and pressing buttons is bad.
Said people with power are not transparent about this action.
Community (See: Other people that people with power rule over) Dislike this
People with power ban disliking this.


I can pull up a link to the steps of converting a country to communism, if you would like.


---------------
EDIT:

Everything admins do is not transparent.
This is bad.
This is also something that cant be fixed.
Because human nature is a thing, even in SS13, that's why we have people getting banned for slipping up and kicking the fuck out of the clown because he broke a window.
Essentially, admins will fuck us over in some way, or some how, regardless if they men't to or not.
In a perfect world, there are no admins. And no one is a shit head.
In a perfect world, we all do our jobs on SS13 normally.
Realism. Is not perfect.

Yes, like the transparency of admins on bay, on goon, on yog, on hippie. On any other game server ever, with probable exception of /VG/ except I've never actually looked at their logs so don't know how detailed they are.

In honesty, you expect the admins to be flawless, to not fuck up. Unfortunately by pressing these big buttons sometimes things go wrong, people are fallible, they make stupid mistakes and there original intentions are lost in the chaos.

IF you seriously think the admins are purposely fucking with everyone to make their lives miserable then you probably need to take a step back. Most of the time these events come out of wanting to add some spice to the repetitive rounds, to make each round unique. Often this does work, we get "Nice round" or "that was hilarious" in OOC after a round and sometimes we fuck up and things go a lot worse than how we imagined it.

People keep throwing around the word conspiracy when what they're trying to imply (or not) is that the admins are purposely trying to make the game miserable for the players. Why!? Why would we want to do that? What gain besides a fleeting feeling power, which would ultimately wear off or get boring. Admins like to be GM's as its kind of the only perk we get from spending so much of our time administrating and weeding out griefers in this unpaid job.

peoplearestrange wrote: People keep throwing around the word conspiracy when what they're trying to imply (or not) is that the admins are purposely trying to make the game miserable for the players. Why!? Why would we want to do that? What gain besides a fleeting feeling power, which would ultimately wear off or get boring.

Just read what some admins post on this very forum or on singulo and you'll know that fucking up the round for everyone is more often than not great entertainment for (some of) them when they're bored.

mosquitoman wrote: Just read what some admins post on this very forum or on singulo and you'll know that fucking up the round for everyone is more often than not great entertainment for (some of) them when they're bored.

This actually isn't as sinister as people seem to be making it out to be. We do encourage admins to avoid burn out by running events or doing something to cut thru the monotony of being an observer watching nothing happen over and over and over. And we've never hidden that fact, you search thru the forums you will find admins saying this over and over and over.

It's basically their reward for sitting thru a bunch of rounds as a ghost watching nothing happen and dealing with angry ahelps about getting arrested because they think security can only arrest traitors or some shit.

Now that being said, yes, we do want them to exercise a bit of caution with how, when, and how often they do this. General fuckary should aim to be just as much fun for the players as it is for the admin orchestrating the thing, round ending fuckary should balance that last guideline with ensuring the round ends and that its proportional to how long the round has been going on.

But admin complaints just aren't the way to discuss this.

Everybody jumps on admin complaints arguing about how "shit" xyz thing is, admin complaints get turned into a "situation" and having a virtual angry mob jump on your back for hitting the wrong button at the wrong time only serves to further insulate admins from players, something I'm trying to undo.

In the case of the admin complaint that triggered this, Lets actually look at the facts around that:

One, the round was past an hour, with endless recalling happening.

Two, the thing used to end the round had JUST been merged, no admin knew how balanced it was, how could they.

Three, I was leaving soon and we needed to run one more round as a test so that I could revert after that round so there was a bit of a need to end the gang round.

But here's the thing, admins shouldn't have to defend their every action every time they press a button to an angry mob. Concerns over how they did an event should be expressed as constructive feedback, not an angry 'complaint' demanding justification or deadmining.

peoplearestrange wrote: People keep throwing around the word conspiracy when what they're trying to imply (or not) is that the admins are purposely trying to make the game miserable for the players. Why!? Why would we want to do that?

Same reason that players will randomly murder and destroy things when there aren't rules. Shit is fun to do. It's not about "purposefully trying to make players miserable" so much as having fun at the expense of them. I mean we have a antagonist roles that we give free license to fuck with other players, and those roles are generally considered desirable.

Players aren't perfect either but they generally get notes/warnings/bans when they upset other people.



I'm not saying there's a bunch of people sitting in adminbus going "HE HE HE HOW WILL WE UPSET PLAYERS TODAY" (other than HG, anyway) but people getting bored and smashing the station for amusement is not far fetched at all when the gameplay more or less revolves around it, and we have pages and pages of rules about when it's okay for people to do it.