[Deleted] Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

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feem
 
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Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby feem » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:22 am #385268

The likelihood of my winning being statistically small enough that I see this as an effective means to affect change, sure why not

Here's my platform, it's super simple:

hey please stop being bad

If you're not being bad, there's not really a problem is there?

So what does being bad mean?


This is primarily rule 1. Don't be a dick. Don't be a dick to other players, don't be a dick to other characters ICly, and don't be a dick to admins. Respect peoples' time. Fuck with them in-game, sure, and give them "the bantz" out of game, sure, but know where the boundary is, know when the other dude is telling you to fucking cut it out, and follow that direction. The core of this: If you honestly don't know whether or not something you are doing or are about to do is 'being a dick, then ask before you do it.

What about <all the situations we've established through precedent that I'm not allowed/allowed to do>


Precedent is an example of how something has been handled in the past. It doesn't mean that if you do something similar to that, or even necessarily identically to that, that you'll be given exactly the same consequences (or lack thereof). It's a guideline to understand how the rule is enforced.

How active are you going to be?

I'm always pretty active in the forums and on discord and I'm definitely active if you need me to be.

Why do you even want to be an headmin?

I'm not totally sure that I do? But a lot of people seem to want me to run and I end up answering a lot of questions either the same way headmins answer them or in a way that headmins seem to like, and I have game administration and gamerunner experience. If there's something I can bring to the table I will.

Hey, you said <x> some other time and now you're saying <y> about this other thing, what gives?

I try to be consistent. But different situations are different. Sometimes what's visible to me isn't the same thing as what's visible to you -- and vice-versa. If it seems like I'm being inconsistent about something let's talk. Let's maybe involve another admin or something, too. As long as it's not a waste of time, I want to get to the bottom of what's bugging you about me and/or the game and see if we can get a resolution.

What if I worry that I'm wasting your time?

Well, if you're worried about it, you probably aren't, but you're probably asking: what if I waste your time?

So to that, well, just don't be a dick about it.

do you even like jokes what is this

yeah

aren't you a sjw or something

in my real life sure kinda but I understand that we suspend most of that for this game. Mostly I'm just concerned with whether or not you're being a shithead with the intent to be a shithead, not the manner in which you go about doing it. I'm not going to take you to task because you said <word> (outside of IC/OOC or ERP problems), but if you run an organized campaign of terror against a dude every time you see them you're probably getting bwoinked.

what's the point, you're going to burn out anyway

You know, I don't see that coming? I hear it sometimes but I think people misunderstand where I'm coming from on things. But I guarantee you if there's a problem I'll hand it over to someone else(likely whoever would come in below me -- though I want to reiterate, I am not statistically likely to win -- in the polls.).

Are you going to go on a banning spree?

No, not exactly. There's a lot to be said for being able to pin together pieces of data, but I also want the _actual game_ to be good. I'm a lot less concerned with banning every evader and shitter out there and a lot more concerned with making sure that the game is actually reasonably fun for everyone involved. I want those emergent experiences that we always come back for to keep happening.

So I don't see myself banning more people, or even promoting more banning, than I already do. I _am_ interested in what makes those players who get banned, especially those who get banned repeatedly, interested in the game, so that we can see if there's any way we can give them some of that component without taking away from anyone else's enjoyment.

I'm not talking about the people who are just out to grief. They're not going to change and the thing they get from it is just pure schadenfreude. But there are a lot of people who are generally considered 'shitters' who I figure probably aren't actually that harmful, they're just bad at playing the game inside the rules.

We're all in this community together and we're all playing this game together. If your behavior can change to make the game better or if the game can become better and, in doing so, also make you happier as a player without having you fuck with other people, then that's a win.

Further, I understand that very little of this is actually under the control of the headmins. So what I'd hope to do instead is offer guidance, liaison with players, and research about behavior which can let everybody get on the same page.

Are you a fed?

no

Are you going to unban <whoever>


If someone files an appeal during my tenure and I'm working or influencing that appeal, then they'll get the same litmus I've described: were you actually shit or were we wrong? do you understand what happened? what have you changed? how did you feel then? how do you feel now? what solution to this would make you happiest? if you can't have that solution, can you offer a compromise?

So the answer is: maybe?

Don't you want to change the rules?

Spoiler:
I mean, the only thing I'd do at this point is clarify that they're examples and reiterate rule 0, NOT in the context of the way it's generally used, i.e. "i am tired of you so here is le ban," but in the way that oftentimes things are let to slide if all the players involved are okay with it.

By making these explicit case studies and not "the law" in and of themselves -- which is honestly how most admins interpret them already, as case studies -- then we can turn the feeling of rules lawyering into the feeling of explaining perspectives.

I DO NOT want players to rules lawyer. But I DO want players to have their perspectives heard.
(prior answer spoilered)

new answer from the discussion thread:

A huge set of rules is a pain in the ass to administrate and invites players to lawyer the hell out of what they do.

For that I have a few things to say.

1) The rules, in and of themselves and as they are, aren't that bad.
2) Precedents are often treated as rules. I think they should be officially treated as examples of how a case has been handled in the past. While there may seem like very little distinction, clarifying that Rule 0 doesn't just mean 'we will ban you if we feel like it' and that it also means 'sometimes you can bend the rules a little if the situation demands it and the admin handling the event sees your reasoning.' Case studies, not case law.
3) I don't want to create a shitton of new rules and I'm pretty sure we can clarify the text of and pare down the rules as they are without substantially changing their meanings or intents, bringing them more in line with how they're actually enforced rather than a way we decided to write them down this one time.
4) I'm really annoyed by the current metapolitical state of "if you want to add/change rules you are bloating the rules" versus "if you want to remove/change or do not want to add rules you are harming the ability of players to understand what they can and can't do."

We SHOULD NOT be afraid to make our rules easier to read. We SHOULD consider whether or not a new rule, or new precedent, is required, or if a rewording or expansion of an existing precedent is better suited to demonstrate what we mean by a particular rule.

I think there are more than a few places in our current rules where things could be better worded to both cut down on rules lawyering AND simplify the rules, while also expanding the breadth of the rule to more accurately describe what we actually mean by the rule. And the "common sense" argument only works insofar as we don't add precedents or rules that cause additional confusion.

To summarize, we shouldn't be afraid to modify shit so it makes more sense, is simpler, and is more in line with how we enforce the rules; we shouldn't be afraid to say 'precedents are examples' officially; and while we DO need players to accept some of the burden of understanding and thinking about the rules, we don't need to insult and belittle them every time they think something could be better worded.

How are you going to MAKE THINGS BETTER if you don't MAKE CHANGES?

We're all in this community. It's not my job to make things better, it's my job to help everyone get better and to help things be better for everyone. I won't be able to 'fix' any huge problems and I won't be able to 'right' any big egregious wrongs. But I can do my level best to incrementally, and per-situation, try to do the right thing for all parties involved, and to document that in a way that lets other people benefit from it after the fact.

are you really saying that you're not running to FIX TGSTATION13!?

We aren't without problems, but yeah, I don't expect to actually fix any of them, because the problems we have are bigger than me. But like I said: I can help offer advice, guidance, liaison, and effort to get things moving in that direction.

MEME REASONS TO VOTE FOR ME

* I own http://chumb.is
* horses
* .feem
* the british royal mail
* oranges vs. feem crab battle
* will donate twenty-five cents to the feem of your choice
Last edited by feem on Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:12 am, edited 6 times in total.



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Re: Feemjmeem - Fine. Ugh. Vote for me.

Postby The_Dreamweaver » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:25 am #385269

Feem is a cool guy I think! If I wasn't running Id probably consider a vote.
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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby bandit » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:38 am #385274

feem is probably the most temperamentally suited to being in a leadership role of anybody running
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admin feedback pls

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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby Qbopper » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:43 am #385275

feem should win and if he doesn't i'll be very disappointed
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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby SpaceInaba » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:51 am #385277

year of the horse confirmed
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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby feem » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:59 am #385295

OP changelog: added some more questions and answers.

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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby feem » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:36 am #385308

OP changelog: added meme reasons to vote for me

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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby yorii » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:54 am #385312

pack it up, the race is over

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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby Atlanta-Ned » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:21 am #385337

feem is good.

A pleasure alto admin with, and as level-headed as they come. We’re luck to have them on the team and we’ll be best off with them as a headmin.
Feedback pls (Don't bother though, because I am perfect)
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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby feem » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:12 am #385668

OP changelog: moved more elaborate, more considered answer about rules changes from discussion/debate thread into this thread

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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:25 am #385935

Feem Mr this sounds scary. What if I am bad because I forget/don't know the circumstances of what I did was wrong. Is this going to make the number of admin remarks one has way more to that early banishment? Hello
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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby feem » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:38 pm #385982

Shadowflame909 wrote:Feem Mr this sounds scary. What if I am bad because I forget/don't know the circumstances of what I did was wrong. Is this going to make the number of admin remarks one has way more to that early banishment? Hello


As long as you stop being bad moving forward you're still in the spirit of the request.

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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby feem » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:42 pm #386440

A couple more questions that have come up:

How will you change roundtype frequency?


Dunno. This is kind of a moving target since features and balances change a lot at the coderbus level. While headmins, admins, and players, can have some amount of influence on coderbus, and while coderbus very often (and does, in the case of roundtype weighting) leave config options up to the headmins, the fact that buffs and nerfs are constantly rolling through makes the 'player comfort' level of any given roundtype fairly variable.

I think getting some meaningful statistics about each roundtype might be worthwhile, and perhaps instead of simply saying 'let's make this round happen less often,' looking at a factor such as how long and how many players are taken out of the round per roundtype, and then come up with a solution based upon that, or other similar, metrics.

I think that changing policies like this aren't always as simple as 'disable x' or 'make y happen less often,' because sometimes the problem isn't the roundtype, it's the way the roundtype players out for the players. And I think sometimes we're too quick to dismiss things that change the meta of the game if we're not turning it off entirely and walking away from it.

On the other hand, there are definitely some broken mechanics which have come up in the past, and I think if it is demonstrable that that particular mechanic is new and responsible for the grief experienced by players, then we need to dunk that too.

The tl;dr for this as a headmin: I don't know, I'll have to look at it and listen to what players have to say about why they don't like it, and then work with other headmins and maybe coderbus to come up with solutions.

The tl;dr for this from a 'what i would ask of coderbus' perspective: maybe it would be cool to have a 'rolling window' of the n last rounds and the distribution of roundtype across those rounds, and adjust the weighting naturally based upon cycles of player count and recency of round. For example, if I play six rounds in two different play sessions in a day, let's split the difference to make sure I don't play six rev rounds, but also that I don't play two consistent rev rounds, but that over that window I have an reasonably equal distribution of 'common' vs. 'rare' round types.

Do you think code or player policy solutions are best?

It very much depends on the type of problem but to be perfectly honest, I'm of the opinion that the game and the policies should change, to a certain extent, for the players playing the game.

If most people are having fun with x, I don't want to take x away from them, but I want to address the things that the other folks don't like about it somehow.

I feel like the best solution that's applicable to all problems is to decide which changes where are most effective and easiest to implement. If that means asking coderbus to make a change, then that's fine, but we should also manipulate the way we as admins treat players in regard to something that's happening in order to make sure people are having a more or less contiguous experience.

Similarly, we should be careful with adding or changing rules for players, because we already have a fairly complicated rules document and changing policies makes players feel like shit. I would rather _clarify_ existing rules than _create_ new special case rules, and if there are easily-made in the rules which require several elaborate counter-examples to illustrate, then we should question what we're actually trying to accomplish with that particular rule and either rewrite it or think about implementing a different way to accomplish our goals.

What I'm saying is: headmins have to bridge the gap between players, coderbus, the admins, and the game. If I'm in that role, my main concern is going to be getting as many people on the same page as I can, and so any changes that are made to admin or player policy or any changes that I request from coderbus (which again, may or may not be implemented) are going to be focused on that goal.

There isn't a 'best,' there's just a better tool for a particular task, and that's going to vary.

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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby onleavedontatme » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:04 am #386575

I don't always agree with feem on what the rules should be but he'd enforce his version fairly and without drama, /tg/ would be in good hands.

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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby Cobby » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:21 am #386576

Before I assume, what’s your stance on grey tide as in ic conflicts ?

Personally I consider them just a natural byproduct of a roleplaying game where jobs have certain items others are going to want to take, but I see “don’t be a dick IC” so usually that in practice means harsher standards against “greytide”, whatever that means
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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby feem » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:33 am #386582

tide gonna tide. Don't be a dick means don't needlessly force someone else to engage with you in a situation they have no chance of winning in, when pertains to greytiding, I feel.

Like break into anything, slip people, hell even punch them once if you feel like it, but /take what's coming to you when you start serious or destructive shit/ and unless there's an actual escalation path which demonstrates that the other dude was willfully involved and escalating don't expect to dunk the dude you started shit with and get away clean.

Greytiding isn't being a dick in and of itself but perma or gulagging someone for laser tag spamming could be being a dick.

Punching someone and running away isn't really being a dick, but punching someone, waiting until they hit you back once or twice, then wrecking them utterly is being a dick.

It's a lot more to do with intent behind behavior. If the intent is mischief then that adds to the game and is natural.

If the intent is taking people out of the round or meaningfully spoiling their round for no reason, that's being a dick.

That having been said, if everybody involved is okay with it, and if you push the boundaries here but also take what's coming to you ICly, there's a lot less of a problem.

When I say "don't be bad" I'm asking the player, not the character.
Last edited by feem on Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby feem » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:37 am #386585

I also want to note regarding the above answer: I didn't always make this distinction. It took a lot of watching players from above for me to realize that the line to draw is around intent and not just outcome.

This is also why I'm willing to revisit almost any ban or note in an appeal: the checks of players versus admins are super important, especially because we're all going to interpret things a little bit differently.

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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby starmute » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:20 pm #387148

I just want to say that feem was very professional when I've dealt with him before. I would put that in "feedback" but I think it pertains to him running for admin. There's plenty of good candidates running this election.

Here's a question: Whats something that you find you are at odds with with your other administrators. What sets you apart?

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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby Sometinyprick » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:25 pm #387150

Where exactly do you draw the line on "being a dick", to an extent player's being cunts makes the game interesting and as much as people don't like to admit it hating certain player characters for a lot of people is part of what makes the game fun and interesting, (although I do think we have a problem with people being unable to differentiate between someone playing a character and the actual person playing that character out)
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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby Qbopper » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:33 pm #387151

Sometinyprick wrote:Where exactly do you draw the line on "being a dick", to an extent player's being cunts makes the game interesting and as much as people don't like to admit it hating certain player characters for a lot of people is part of what makes the game fun and interesting, (although I do think we have a problem with people being unable to differentiate between someone playing a character and the actual person playing that character out)


i thin khe measn there's a difference between being a dickhead IC and OOC

conflict IC is essential, conflict OOC is extremely unhealthy
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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby feem » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:01 pm #387179

starmute wrote:Here's a question: Whats something that you find you are at odds with with your other administrators. What sets you apart?

First, in general in regards to the actual process of being at odds or discussing and arguing things, I try to be level and considerate.

When at odds, I think I can get as frustrated as anyone, maybe moreso, sometimes, so I can't really say that I'm more 'reasonable,' BUT I tend to get over my frustrations extremely quickly and I'm often able to incorporate suggestions and feedback pretty rapidly, too.

I don't know that I differ especially much from other admins in any one big way. I do think that player intent is a huge factor in determining how an issue should be handled. I also have a strong feeling of IC vs. OOC separation, and I think that some of the things that players -- and admins -- are a little less tenacious about that than I am.

I also think we shouldn't actively antagonize our playerbase or each other. I place a lot of value on mutual recognizance that others are humans and if you're not doing that the empathy I have for you decreases rapidly.

Sometinyprick wrote:Where exactly do you draw the line on "being a dick", to an extent player's being cunts makes the game interesting and as much as people don't like to admit it hating certain player characters for a lot of people is part of what makes the game fun and interesting, (although I do think we have a problem with people being unable to differentiate between someone playing a character and the actual person playing that character out)

I went into this a little above, but basically I'm looking at a few things:

1) If what you're doing is irrational or unprovoked and with the systemic or acute intent to deprive the player of their round, destroy their enjoyment of the game, or cause substantial (beyond 'poopoohead lol' or 'FUCK YOU FOR KILLING ME' kind of shit, I'm talking campaigns of behavior, dropping dox, creepy shit, etc) OOC insult or attack, then you're being a dick.

Obviously if you're an antag this doesn't apply, and obviously if you're just being a nuisance (shoving, a tiny bit of punching, tabling, dragging, maybe even capturing briefly) someone it's not a big deal OOCly, but if you go out of your way and make it intentionally unfun out of straight-up malice or hate/anger/whatever (FNR arrest + strip + anesthesia, cutting off limbs without cause, egregious and repeated abuse of harmbaton/krav maga/guns as sec, doing any of the above with an explicit target of lizards/humans/catpeople/whatever) then you're not bringing anything to the game, you're trying to take something away.

Simply: greytiding is fine, abuse is not.

2) I want everyone to have a good time and we have a lot of different people that play a lot of different ways, and sometimes what you think is okay isn't going to be okay to them, and so what I'd ask of everyone is that they understand that other people may view things differently and when asked about them or asked to stop, they do, or at least make an effort. If you don't ever feel the need to correct your behavior when having been asked to stop, then you're also being a dick.

edit: 3) I also understand how important being 'hands off' is for a lot of rounds and a lot of interactions, for the purposes of emergent gameplay. I am BIG on emergent gameplay. But I don't want someone to fuck over someone else to get it, unless that person is okay with being fucked over and had a good time, or there was a good reason for it to happen. Maxcapping as a non-antag FNR isn't emergent gameplay, but starting a guncargo vs. science war COULD be, if it lasts the whole round and is a steady escalation process.

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Re: Feemjmeem - hey please stop being bad

Postby feem » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:01 am #388099

Someone asked me something else today:

What's your stance on doxxing and OOC insults?


They're different things, let's handle them one at a time.

Insulting someone OOCly could mean a hell of a lot of different things. Again, this is a pretty volatile community. People yell at each other a LOT. If there was a blanket policy about 'never say anything mean to anyone' that would be both impossible to enforce with our current playerbase and extremely uncomfortable for everyone.

On the other hand, where do we draw the line? When does 'the bantz' become a personal attack?

If you're asking _yourself_ this question then you're probably in good shape. If you're trying to justify why something you did wasn't a personal attack, you might not be, unless it's in the form of 'I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way.'

OKAY I GUESS: calling someone a fucking smarmy hosebeast shitlicker

NOT OKAY: trolling someone about their sexual preferences every single time you see them

OKAY I GUESS: 'i fucking hate liggers and everyone who plays them'

NOT OKAY: 'hahahaha look guys i found this ligger lover's webpage about furry shit'

And this leads us straight into dropping dox.

You have absolutely no protections here, absolutely none, if you do any of the following:

1) Gather information about a player with the intent to harass, intimidate, or somehow damage them
2) Take /tg/station bullshit to another place where someone hangs out with the intent to harass, intimidate, or somehow damage them
3) Drop personal or private information of a player in /tg/station community locations, or the like

This has been enforced previously and I'll continue to enforce it moving forward.

The long story short here, and I've said it before, is that if what you're doing involves either an organized campaign to fuck with someone, or goes beyond your average in-community bantering, then you get no quarter from me.

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