[Deleted] The current state of admin trainers and admin candidates.

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The current state of admin trainers and admin candidates.

Postby subject217 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:34 pm #435269

A large issue both with headmins and admin trainers in the last term was the training of Admin Candidates. Some people like Armhulen left their candidates sitting around for LITERAL months without training on multiple occasions. What will you do to ensure that this doesn't happen? Will you step in to train someone else's candidate for them if necessary? How long should training take, and at what point should someone else step in? How do you ensure that existing Admin Trainers are doing a good job training the candidates they have selected, and aren't just green-lighting them? What do you think are acceptable grounds to demote an Admin Trainer? If you think that more admins are necessary, is it important for Admin Trainers to be actively finding new candidates?

What do you believe makes a good Admin Candidate? Are there any major requirements that you think a suggested candidate should be able to fill before being eligible? What do you think makes a BAD admin candidate?

Is there anything about the Admin Candidate process that you'd like to change compared to how it currently is?



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Re: The current state of admin trainers and admin candidates.

Postby BeeSting12 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:41 pm #435298

What will you do to ensure that this doesn't happen?
Candidates sitting around for months is unacceptable, but that was mainly armhulenn. Trainers will be allowed to train any candidate, and the checklist which is already being used should help make sure all the trainers are on the same page.

Will you step in to train someone else's candidate for them if necessary?
Yes.

How long should training take, and at what point should someone else step in?
At most, a month. This is assuming there's time zone issues or one party doesn't have enough time or whatever. Someone else should step in if the trainer says he doesn't have time to candidate them.

How do you ensure that existing Admin Trainers are doing a good job training the candidates they have selected, and aren't just green-lighting them?
Trialmin reviews. Observing them on the server. The teaching checklist.

What do you think are acceptable grounds to demote an Admin Trainer?
Any reason to demote a normal admin. Not doing their job well with candidates. The difficult part is figuring out when it's their fault and when it's the candidate's fault. Unless they show extreme and obvious negligence, realistically none of them will get demoted for failing to train someone properly.

If you think that more admins are necessary, is it important for Admin Trainers to be actively finding new candidates?
I think all the admins should be on the look out for potential candidates. Anyone is welcome to suggest one in the admin candidate tracking thread. Trainers could be considered to have a bit more of an obligation to, but I won't hold it against them if they can't find a good one.

What do you believe makes a good Admin Candidate?
Lots of ingame experience. Few recent behavioral issues. Good attitude towards the game and their fellow players/admins. Good understanding of policy/rules. Not toxic on the forums/discord. Must have ERPed with me.

Are there any major requirements that you think a suggested candidate should be able to fill before being eligible?
I'm not going to put down a hard minimum connection count/play time, but they should have a decent amount, and it should be spread out over at least six months or so.

What do you think makes a BAD admin candidate?
Tons of behavioral issues ingame. Poor attitude towards the game, poor understanding of policy/rules, being toxic/having a history of being toxic.

Is there anything about the Admin Candidate process that you'd like to change compared to how it currently is?
Can't think of anything really.
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Re: The current state of admin trainers and admin candidates.

Postby Carbonhell » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:32 am #435340

What will you do to ensure that this doesn't happen?
Perhaps a logging system where trainers must declare who their candidates are and when they firstly started to trial them could be implemented, I think something similar is already implemented? If the same problem happens, it can be tracked down immediately and other trainers can intervene.

Will you step in to train someone else's candidate for them if necessary?
Only if I would trial the candidate myself aswell. Trainers should be expected to be able to deal with their candidates. If they have a problem they can always ask for help to other trainers or us headmins.

How long should training take, and at what point should someone else step in?
One month seems a good base guideline, but it honestly depends on the candidate. It could even be shorter if the dude's known and a good player, or longer if some problems happens. The one month line should be definitely just a guideline, but it shouldn't go past 2 months. If this happens, then something with either the candidate or the trainer are doing something wrong.

How do you ensure that existing Admin Trainers are doing a good job training the candidates they have selected, and aren't just green-lighting them?
The staff should generally keep an eye on each other. If any irregularity is noticed, it should be immediately reported by anyone who sees it, so that we can deal with it accordingly.

What do you think are acceptable grounds to demote an Admin Trainer?
The same reason that apply to normal admins, and for their job in particular, being inactive and green-lighting people should also be grounds for demotion. They manage who gets in the staff team, which is vital for the community, we cannot afford inactive trainers nor those who don't do their job properly.

If you think that more admins are necessary, is it important for Admin Trainers to be actively finding new candidates?
I would rather prefer trainers carefully checking who is given trialling rather than trialling random people just to fill a spot. If i think more admins are necessary i'd just suggest some candidates myself, and let other admins do the same, to trainers.

What do you believe makes a good Admin Candidate?
Activity in the timezone needed, if any is needed, along with a good knowledge of the rules. If possible, no serious notes within the last month, and a decent number of connections in the last month aswell.

Are there any major requirements that you think a suggested candidate should be able to fill before being eligible?
I just think that the trainer training him should feel that he's ready, based on his overview of how the candidate handles ahelps and how he generally approaches the playerbase.

What do you think makes a BAD admin candidate?
The opposite of what makes a good candidate pmuch.

Is there anything about the Admin Candidate process that you'd like to change compared to how it currently is?
I would have to experience it firsthand to say something, but as far as i know there doesn't seems to be any major issue about it.

(thanks to BeeSting for splitting each question properly aye)

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Re: The current state of admin trainers and admin candidates.

Postby CitrusGender » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:13 am #435428

Carbonhell wrote:What will you do to ensure that this doesn't happen?
Perhaps a logging system where trainers must declare who their candidates are and when they firstly started to trial them could be implemented, I think something similar is already implemented? If the same problem happens, it can be tracked down immediately and other trainers can intervene.


Yeah, this exists with a candidacy note. I've done like 10 of them so far.

I trained all my candidates and spent a good amount of time with each one (I made sure that I have a 2-3 hour training session with each one of them and they always asked me question on discord whenever.) The problem last term is that it was difficult to make a standard for what was required of a headmin when one of my co-headmins was not following those rules. As such, I feel like it would be neccesary for admin-trainers to train their candidates but they don't need to be actively looking out for candidates.

It's a balancing process, it depends on admin coverage and how the players feel. We ran polls last term to find a balance and I was the headmin that actively made the candidates to fit those spots.
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Re: The current state of admin trainers and admin candidates.

Postby subject217 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:15 am #435442

CitrusGender wrote:The problem last term is that it was difficult to make a standard for what was required of a headmin when one of my co-headmins was not following those rules.

To clarify, I explicitly bring up the "At what point do you step in?" question because you and Rustled took the approach of waiting for Arm to handle it, however long that took (and boy, did it take a while). Would you do the same thing if it happened again? Do you think that it's a good idea to make admin candidates wait a month because their partially absentee trainer can't make the time, or should someone else be assigned self or otherwise to step in to help?

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Re: The current state of admin trainers and admin candidates.

Postby CitrusGender » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:19 am #435443

subject217 wrote:
CitrusGender wrote:The problem last term is that it was difficult to make a standard for what was required of a headmin when one of my co-headmins was not following those rules.

To clarify, I explicitly bring up the "At what point do you step in?" question because you and Rustled took the approach of waiting for Arm to handle it, however long that took (and boy, did it take a while). Would you do the same thing if it happened again? Do you think that it's a good idea to make admin candidates wait a month because their partially absentee trainer can't make the time, or should someone else be assigned self or otherwise to step in to help?


Yeah, in retrospect I should have stepped in earlier. I guess I just had faith in Arm to not let his candidates sit forever. I don't think that's fair to the candidate to make them wait as long as they did and it wasn't intentional.

I have no problem with stepping in for other trainers though, I have done it before (hence how I've trained more candidates than I've actually candidated.) Arm was just a special case since he never notified the other headmins that he wasn't able to train them (unlike other cases where trainers specifically notified the headmins that they weren't able to train candidates and asked for help.) Arm never asked for help.
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Re: The current state of admin trainers and admin candidates.

Postby Rustledjimm » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:30 pm #435519

At the start of this term I went back over Ausops new candidate method and added the clause that candidates must remain at candidate rank for at least a week before being moved up to trialmin rank. Training in reality takes maybe an evening or two depending on how much time you have. Bar Armhullen's nearly all candidates were trained well prior to a week into their candidacy either by the person who candidated them or by someone to step in if the Trainer knew they would not have the time. Me and Citrus stepped in on a few of these occasions for example.

I would say Armhullen was a special case in that he was a headmin and despite repeated nagging would continue to ignore his candidates, the only way to "punish" a headmin is to remove them and I wasn't willing to remove arm simply over not training people properly. I make it no secret I do not think Armhullen was a good headmin nor a good trainer. He was good at interacting with the community and sometimes running events. He made a good admin, not a good headmin. I believe no other trainer has had an issue in training their candidates as we do push the trainers to complete the training as soon as possible so candidates can be observed. I have trained far more people than I've candidated but that doesn't mean I wouldn't candidate more people if I find others I think are suitable. I suppose I have fairly high standards and am less likely to take risks on admin candidating than others (though some would say the one person I candidated was a risk I was certain they would do well and I was happily proved correct).

I would perhaps like to improve the way Admin Trainer works, there are a few with the rank who have either made consistently bad decisions or have been completely inactive. I intend to pull this into the general review so it can be discussed among the admin team and among the community at large.
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Re: The current state of admin trainers and admin candidates.

Postby Stickymayhem » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:37 pm #435521

The system as it is works pretty well, but I'd place greater emphasis on some of our reliable admin trainers finding admins, rather than the headmin heavy selections we've had recently. They tend to be more active and less busy with other stuff.

I also think training admins using discord voice is incredibly beneficial, saves a lot of time and gives you a much better idea of their attitude as a potential colleague than doing everything in asay. I'd make that a standard practice.
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Re: The current state of admin trainers and admin candidates.

Postby Rustledjimm » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:43 pm #435523

Stickymayhem wrote:The system as it is works pretty well, but I'd place greater emphasis on some of our reliable admin trainers finding admins, rather than the headmin heavy selections we've had recently. They tend to be more active and less busy with other stuff.

I also think training admins using discord voice is incredibly beneficial, saves a lot of time and gives you a much better idea of their attitude as a potential colleague than doing everything in asay. I'd make that a standard practice.


I believe I made that special Training channel while Nervere was training their first candidate and had issues with the main admin voice channel because a few admins were playing a game together in it.
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Re: The current state of admin trainers and admin candidates.

Postby Arianya » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:23 pm #436718

subject217 wrote:A large issue both with headmins and admin trainers in the last term was the training of Admin Candidates. Some people like Armhulen left their candidates sitting around for LITERAL months without training on multiple occasions. What will you do to ensure that this doesn't happen? Will you step in to train someone else's candidate for them if necessary?


Yup

How long should training take, and at what point should someone else step in?


Generally speaking I think a week or so of on and off training is for the best. Make sure someone isn't going to blow everything up and then give them the ability to learn from other admins and on the job. I wouldn't want to see anyone in the Candidate position for more then 2 or 3 weeks, a month at the absolute max.

How do you ensure that existing Admin Trainers are doing a good job training the candidates they have selected, and aren't just green-lighting them?


The checklist that currently exists is important, and generally speaking the observation of Trial Admins is important. I'd like it if we made a point of ensuring that Admin Candidates who have finished their training/very new trial admins specifically spend their first few tickets/hours with another admin online to help them through it, but due to timezones this isn't always going to be possible.

What do you think are acceptable grounds to demote an Admin Trainer? If you think that more admins are necessary, is it important for Admin Trainers to be actively finding new candidates?


Obviously continued neglect of candidates would be one ground, but this would be the kind of situation where you'd probably be just as likely to get deadminned for inactivity as anything. I think AdminTrainers should be keeping people in mind and observing them, but not necessarily hunting all the time. This past term has features a lot of new candidates and it's good to have quiet periods when the trialmins/new game admins can adapt to the culture and rules of adminning.

What do you believe makes a good Admin Candidate? Are there any major requirements that you think a suggested candidate should be able to fill before being eligible? What do you think makes a BAD admin candidate?


Patience and knowledge of the rules is good, willingness to help others is a big positive, but knowing how to balance playing the game/adminning/doing other stuff is extremely important. A candidate who spends 16 hours every day on the server but burns out within a couple of weeks is of no use to anyone in the long run, especially if they end up leaving in a blaze of glory because of it.

Is there anything about the Admin Candidate process that you'd like to change compared to how it currently is?


None jumps to mind, though I think from a personal point of view I'd be looking to candidate less people in the short term, as there's been a lot of growth lately in the admin team.
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Re: The current state of admin trainers and admin candidates.

Postby wubli » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:10 am #437335

I can't believe Ari used quotes instead of Beesting's beautiful format

What will you do to ensure that this doesn't happen? Will you step in to train someone else's candidate for them if necessary?
I'd say Arm's case was not something I'd expect from Admin Trainers. I'd like to be notified of their candidacy and training - just a basic "hey, i'm candidating X person and i'll train them on Y day". But it's as simple as to talk with the same candidate. This doesn't mean trainers are the only ones who should take part in it, I myself was helped by a lot of other admins. While Rustledjimm helped me a lot, Citrus, Owegno and a bunch more who sat in the voice chat while I was learning helped me too.

How long should training take, and at what point should someone else step in? How do you ensure that existing Admin Trainers are doing a good job training the candidates they have selected, and aren't just green-lighting them?
A week is enough as long as the candidate can fulfill the things we ask for (learn every panel, solve 5 ahelps). It should take as long as the candidate needs, but I believe a week is good time enough as a minimum. Anyone should be able to step in at anytime - but if the trainer would prefer to do it by themselves, that should also be okay, but they should candidate someone when they have the time to train them. Should something happen to them, someone else could take care of it. I'd say, if two weeks have passed and they haven't been trained with the basics, someone else should definitely step in.
Talking about who they want to candidate and notifying when will it happen is good enough for me. I'm around a lot and I would definitely notice if the AC is just sitting out waiting for their trainer.

What do you think are acceptable grounds to demote an Admin Trainer?
Same inactivity as regular admins or lack of interest in the role. If I notice an Admin Trainer hasn't candidated someone in a while, I'd ask them if they're still up for the job, since they're not forced to do it and someone else could do it for them. I believe they have earned it, but like every other Game Admin has, they should be as active as they can.

If you think that more admins are necessary, is it important for Admin Trainers to be actively finding new candidates?
It is, but I don't think of them as scouts - they are also trained people who can help out with other candidates or even trial admins. While I don't think we are in constant need of new admins, I do acknowledge we have timezones with little to no active admins that could definitely use some more people. Admin Trainers should try to at least candidate one person per year, as long as the current number of admins doesn't get lower, or at least help others find one.

What do you believe makes a good Admin Candidate? Are there any major requirements that you think a suggested candidate should be able to fill before being eligible? What do you think makes a BAD admin candidate?
Someone with the best mindset: wanting to make the game fun for others. I don't think a specific set of requirements should exist, many of our admins have awful notes from past years. Behavior in the last year should be what counts, such as bans and negative notes. I believe positive notes and keeping an eye on them for a while would help with this. A bad admin candidate would be someone who's picked because they're funny in game, ignoring their negative behavior because they're a meme.

Is there anything about the Admin Candidate process that you'd like to change compared to how it currently is?
Permanently give them AC rank instead of Admin Observer AS SOON AS they're fully trained regarding panels -this is something that happens at some point in their candidacy, I'd like to make it mandatory if the trainer believes they have a good grasp of buttons-. No point in making them wait for a trainer or headmin to change it for them if they already know how to press buttons, worse case scenario they'd do something to a round and get deadminned. I agree that they should try and observe other admins and how they work, but while Trial Admins are technically on their own, ACs would be encouraged to consult with other admins and not step in if they're by themselves. The point would be to not make them sit while headmins or trainers aren't on, but not make them admin solo either.
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