[Deleted] White Suit removed v2

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White Suit removed v2

Postby Hornygranny » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:52 am #42563

talk shit get banned edition

The cue ball head with the green electricity effect is a definite copyright thing, I believe someone is respriting a more generic white suit for your fancy clothing pleasure.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Intigracy » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:10 am #42569

I think the suit was fine, the hat was the issue.

You could even make it a discoball head as Paprika had suggested.

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby ExplosiveCrate » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:25 am #42571

It's not an issue with copyright (don't even think Hussie gives enough shits to care about things like that), but rather the flash of energy that came with the hat. Removing the effect (or just the hat altogether) would have been fine and would have avoided the shitstorm that came a few days after.

The suit is just a suit. Anyone can wear a white suit with a green undershirt.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:39 am #42572

Hornygranny wrote:The cue ball head with the green electricity effect is a definite copyright thing

Copyright isn't and should never be a concern short of actual direct ripping as has already been discussed with xenos. As stated before, I was 100% sure this was a Mysterio (Spiderman) reference and not some sort of autismal webcomic. The only legitimate concern was the electrical field effect which some objected to because it could conflict or give the impression of being related to the cold resistance genetics effect. That and I think I might have ruined everyone's fun by running around with that hat on as a drone a few too many times and having people yell "What the fuck was that ghost thing?" As stated, if that's the actual issue at hand then I have no problem with removing the effect or whatever. The suit removal was apparently an oversight and should return as soon as somebody figures out how to put it back and/or can be bothered to do so.

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby paprika » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:30 am #42581

cedarbridge wrote:As stated before, I was 100% sure this was a Mysterio (Spiderman) reference and not some sort of autismal webcomic.

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:35 am #42583

paprika wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:As stated before, I was 100% sure this was a Mysterio (Spiderman) reference and not some sort of autismal webcomic.

GJ cedar

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Well, add the fact that I've only ever seen it worn by 1) Drones and 2) Clowns wearing that hilariously oversized adeptus robe thing.

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby miggles » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:31 am #42592

yes
because we're afraid of copyright claims from andrew fucking hussie
no, its not a copyright thing. "copyright" is, and has always been, and always will be, a justification for removing things the remover in question does not like. there is no legit threat of legal action, and everyone knows that.
im against this removal simply because of that flawed reasoning. i never even wore the suit, but continuing with this copyright bullshit is just ridiculous.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby paprika » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:53 am #42598

Using already copyrighted properties regardless of the legal boundaries starves creativity. People have yet to address this, though, and will continue saying B-BUT WE WON'T GET IN TROUBLE FOR IT!

In fact, the reason nobody even knows who doc scratch or really any details about homestuck tells you that this outfit should have been gone a long time ago.

As far as a white suit? Fuck, just sprite a new one.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Hornygranny » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:01 am #42600

cedarbridge wrote:
Hornygranny wrote:The cue ball head with the green electricity effect is a definite copyright thing

Copyright isn't and should never be a concern short of actual direct ripping as has already been discussed with xenos. As stated before, I was 100% sure this was a Mysterio (Spiderman) reference and not some sort of autismal webcomic. The only legitimate concern was the electrical field effect which some objected to because it could conflict or give the impression of being related to the cold resistance genetics effect. That and I think I might have ruined everyone's fun by running around with that hat on as a drone a few too many times and having people yell "What the fuck was that ghost thing?" As stated, if that's the actual issue at hand then I have no problem with removing the effect or whatever. The suit removal was apparently an oversight and should return as soon as somebody figures out how to put it back and/or can be bothered to do so.

miggles wrote:yes
because we're afraid of copyright claims from andrew fucking hussie
no, its not a copyright thing. "copyright" is, and has always been, and always will be, a justification for removing things the remover in question does not like. there is no legit threat of legal action, and everyone knows that.
im against this removal simply because of that flawed reasoning. i never even wore the suit, but continuing with this copyright bullshit is just ridiculous.


Regardless of our practical liability, we still have to respect the intellectual property of other people. It would be incredibly hypocritical of us not to do so, given the fact that we use a viral license.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Aranclanos » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:05 am #42601

Nobody is afraid of any copyright claims, that's just an assumption.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Nienhaus » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:40 am #42603

You guys know I sprited a while suit a while ago, right?
It's kinda old but I could easily update it.
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Hey.

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby WeeYakk » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:44 am #42605

Fuck Homestuck.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby ExplosiveCrate » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:46 am #42606

Aranclanos wrote:Nobody is afraid of any copyright claims, that's just an assumption.

Then can we all stop pretending that that is the reason why the suit/hat was removed?

I mean the suit's apparently going to make a return (with better sprites, if someone makes them) once the feature freeze is over, so most of the controversy stemmed from someone acting like an asshole, prompting everyone else to act like assholes.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Hornygranny » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:06 am #42608

Removing things that are copyright violations because you're worried about a takedown is not the same as removing things that are copyright violations because it's the right thing to do.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Arkraven » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:34 am #42613

paprika wrote:Using already copyrighted properties regardless of the legal boundaries starves creativity. People have yet to address this, though, and will continue saying B-BUT WE WON'T GET IN TROUBLE FOR IT!

In fact, the reason nobody even knows who doc scratch or really any details about homestuck tells you that this outfit should have been gone a long time ago.

As far as a white suit? Fuck, just sprite a new one.


People have yet to address that, because that's a slippery slope fallacy Paprika. I can list off so many things that were and still are copyrighted in name and characterization:
Aliens, God king of man kind robes, tricordrazine, etc

The fact that people are still freaking out about it just disproved your previous argument, if no one knows who he is then how is it starving creativity?

If you guys want to use the "Because its copyrighted" argument to banish the old tg items that you personally don't like, then you have a lot of work to do to avoid looking hypocritical here if the rest of the "copyrighted" items don't go either.

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby miggles » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:45 am #42614

Hornygranny wrote:Removing things that are copyright violations because you're worried about a takedown is not the same as removing things that are copyright violations because it's the right thing to do.

this has NEVER been the argument until just now, in this thread
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby paprika » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:43 am #42626

That's because these recent shitstorms about content removals have sparked debate about it and this is now not the 'argument', but the actual decision of the project lead. These things will be removed and hopefully inspire some spriters to make stuff more original for ss13 and not old, outdated references nobody even gets anymore. It's really just cleaning up the codebase of old junk nobody really cares so much about and I think the misconception is that coders are hitler and removing fun when nobody in coderbus is opposed to a new white suit. In the end this back and forth is just saying 'You do it! No, YOU do it!" when the burden of a new sprite should not be on the coder cleaning out old outdated references. Trust me, you wouldn't want cheridan making a new white suit anyway :^)

Be creative, there's a lot of holes that need to be filled sprite-wise with new fun content and this is a good opportunity to do so. As far as aliens go, stop making the thread about it because it's like already been decided we're just going to leave them like they are until someone comes up with something better. Not only would redesigning the alien event to move away from the aliens franchise be a massive undertaking code-wise, but it'd be a lot of sprite work to replace. Which again, shouldn't be a burden on any coder unless they themselves volunteer to submit their time doing it. The honors of removing aliens will be given to the person who makes something better, but we just have to sit on our hands until then, because it's something everyone loves a fucking ton whereas doc scratch isn't even something people care about, they just want a fancy white suit to rock around in which would be 20 minutes of work from a competent spriter.
Last edited by paprika on Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby ExplosiveCrate » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:46 am #42627

paprika wrote: These things will be removed and hopefully inspire some spriters to make stuff more original for ss13 and not old, outdated references nobody even gets anymore.

Like all of the WH40K stuff?

Or the immovable rod.

Or the alcohol bottles named after griefers.

Half of the game is made of shitty references nobody gets.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:47 am #42628

Using the excuse of "removing content to encourage other people to sprite something new" is a bad excuse. The onus should be on the person removing the content to provide a better alternative, not demanding someone else do it.

paprika wrote:It's really just cleaning up the codebase of old junk nobody really cares so much about


Yet it's been proven that a lot of the items being removed are items that a lot of people do care about.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby lumipharon » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:48 am #42630

Can people just never mention copyright ever? This shit literally should have no bearing on what sprites we use, unless you want to start removing shit like the e-sword an the engineering rig.
If there are other, actual reasons to remove sprites/other shit, say them. Copyright is just a shitstorm and/or a poor excuse.

This isnt talking about this sprite in general, but all of them.

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby paprika » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:48 am #42631

Self-references are what make our server culture kind of fun. Stuff like GEORGE MELONS is shit none of our new players would even get anymore though and can probably be removed.

4no raisins, scaredy beef jerky, cheesy honkers, /tg/ culture is the most epic meme after all.

WH40k is lame and the immovable rod can be replaced with a single tunguska meteor since 90% of the time immovable rods never even touch the station as far as I've seen.

lumipharon wrote:This shit literally should have no bearing on what sprites we use, unless you want to start removing shit like the e-sword an the engineering rig.

Energy swords are a concept that predates even star wars, and the 'rig' suits were already redesigned into 'hardsuits' ages ago. I cleaned ALL of the file paths to space/hardsuit instead of space/rig ages ago.

Steelpoint wrote:Yet it's been proven that a lot of the items being removed are items that a lot of people do care about.

Do you care about cosplaying adam jensen or being a black-colored HoS? This is the point I'm trying to make here.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:57 am #42634

Are you actually going to come back with a proper response or do you just enjoy insulting people? It takes effort to insult and fling shit at people yet it takes no effort to just be polite.

I'm replying to your argument and stating why I believe your incorrect, at least do me the curtosey of coming up with a excuse.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby paprika » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:00 am #42636

You didn't answer my question dude I'm not insulting you
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby ExplosiveCrate » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:02 am #42637

It's not that people care about those suits specifically, it's that cosmetic items are being removed because of someone's personal tastes.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:04 am #42639

paprika wrote:You didn't answer my question dude I'm not insulting you


I like cosmetic options and choice, I did like the Dermal Patch as it let me be a more approachable Head of Security and it genuinely did help me in being more nice to the crew and for people to be more likley to want to help me and not run away, I liked the black uniform because it went very well with my character's appearance.

If that makes me like cosplaying as Adam Jensen then the answer is yes, because I think that appearance is far more approachable than our default HoS uniform.

There are several uniforms in the game that I dislike, but I've never even thought of removing them because I know other people like them. Life is about compromise and we can't have everything we want, this is why I put forward the HoS Beret PR as a proper alternative hat.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby lumipharon » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:05 am #42640

Just because 'the new players don't get the reference' does not mean we should remove said references. It's quite literally, history and culture of the server.

I also never even mentioned starwars, but obviously, it is literally just a lightsabre. It's even got a similar(ish) sound. And just because the rig suit is no longer called as such, it is still very much based off the rig suit, and that influence is also reflected with the advanced and mining suits. But you know what? They're all good, there's no way I would want to see them, or any other item/sprite removed purely because 'it's a reference'.

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby paprika » Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:32 am #42653

ExplosiveCrate wrote:It's not that people care about those suits specifically, it's that cosmetic items are being removed because of someone's personal tastes.

This isn't the reason, the only time this would be the case is where the skintight male-muscles HoS jumpsuit was removed by me to make way for a better alt-black jumpsuit. I ran out of time to make a set of black-focused alt clothes for security, because, well, I was spending an unhealthy amount of time defending my reasoning for removing it on the forums. It's on 'the list' along with winter coats for december, so stay tuned I guess.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:50 am #42656

paprika wrote:These things will be removed and hopefully inspire some spriters to make stuff more original for ss13 and not old, outdated references nobody even gets anymore.

How about you remove them AFTER the replacement is made? May be you will become so inspired that you'll do it yourself, since you want it gone so much.
paprika wrote:It's really just cleaning up the codebase of old junk

In that case see above. It's not shitty code, there's no reason for it to be removed just because.
paprika wrote:nobody really cares so much about

The existence of this thread disproves this.

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Perakp » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:09 am #42658

On the topic of references/copyright...

Paprika wrote:You mean I referenced that game that was basically made because of ss13?

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5427

From the few interviews I looked up, they don't mention SS13 as being the source of their inspiration.

For me it looks more like a case of "not all references are created equal", where some references make more sense and are thus acceptable and others don't make sense.

And I do agree, SS13 is not supposed to be Pop Culture References: The Game. Demanding a level of originality is ok, and each existing and new reference should be considered based on it's own merits: does it make sense to have this reference in our game?

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby paprika » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:35 am #42662

Really? You don't think viscera cleanup detail is inspired at all by ss13, a game that's almost entirely one of a kind and the only game (that i know of) that has space janitors?

Cmon son.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
paprika wrote:nobody really cares so much about

The existence of this thread disproves this.

No, the existance of this thread proves people want a white suit, not a doc scratch outfit, which is what I was referring to, if you'd be so kind as to read the thread so I don't have to repeat myself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby ExplosiveCrate » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:37 am #42663

paprika wrote:Really? You don't think viscera cleanup detail is inspired at all by ss13, a game that's almost entirely one of a kind and the only game (that i know of) that has space janitors?

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby MisterPerson » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:57 am #42673

This thread is getting really, really off topic. This is a thread about a white suit and its removal, not other references, copyrights and space janitors.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Blackiwhat » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:10 pm #42678

WeeYakk wrote:Fuck Homestuck.

this is just some autist expressing his opinion where it's not wanted

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Aranclanos » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:18 pm #42695

time to make a version 3 of this thread
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Somejerk » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:28 pm #42696

Xenos are in this game

That Imperium clothing is so 40k why try hiding it

The RIPLEY mech (despite looking nothing like Ellen Ripley or the mech she used in Aliens we all know why it's called RIPLEY)

Fucking Asimov Laws

It got removed because...because.

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Saegrimr » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:58 pm #42698

Various Touhou references.
The Deus Ex joke in the soda vending machines with the lemon-lime.
Various foods and drinks, (Soylent green, Killer Tomatoes, plump helmets, etc.)
Wizard summon guns.

I'm too lazy to even go through all the flavor texts for every object to hunt for all of them, but really. If the path we're going down is "no more references" then you've got a long and boring road ahead of you.
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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Apsis » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:24 pm #42703

Plenty of other games (and movies, cartoons, shows, etc) reference pop culture in many ways without an issue. Of course there's some that cross the line, but I think the references we currently have now are totally fine.

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Cheridan » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:56 pm #42720

paprika wrote: Trust me, you wouldn't want cheridan making a new white suit anyway :^)


but
i'm a really good spriter though

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Re: White Suit removed v2

Postby Intigracy » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:16 pm #42724

Yeah to be honest Cheridan is a pretty good spriter and could probably make a good one if he tried.


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