[Deleted] Re: Feedback forums hostility

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Malkevin
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Malkevin » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:49 pm #47713

I make a right big post and HG locks the thread, bugger.
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@whodaloo - I invite you to go to Singulo, or just here on this forum, and read any of Paprika's posts in a topic about any of his changes, and then come back here and tell me I was being 'baselessly' hostile.
@Dezzmont - you've not been around much the last couple of years so I'll forgive you for not knowing who ForcefulCJ/Oldman Robustin is - imagine if Dante Smith was a egocentric narcissistic braggart that would solo nuke ops repeatedly, powergame to the extreme to murder as many people as possible as a traitor, and just generally be unfun to play with. Then to top it off he'd jerk himself off in OOC for the next 10 minutes about how awesome he was and how everyone else sucked. And he would go on some of the worst word wall assaults I have ever seen on any gameplay change that would dare negatively impact his playstyle.
I mean to back that up I'll just say that he's one of the only people that got perma banned just because nobody liked him, granted the ban didn't stick for long but there was a significant number of people that did want him to stay away.

What someone says and what they actually mean comes largely down to a person's character (by that I mean them as a person, not who their 2dspessman character is), which you're not going to know, and thus not be able to read between their lines.
So whereas the Oldman's posts in that thread make him seem like someone of sagelike wisdom and offering useful incite I'll raise these two points.
-One - the posts you see in that thread from Oldman are only the last two thirds of what he wrote. You should've seen the fire and brimstone word walls he clogged up github with, they were on the level of Kelenius' post for the amount of swearing and vitorol they contained.
-Two - the most important point, is that I know Oldman as a person. In the list of my dev process I mentioned it was important to observe rounds to listen to dead player feedback and watch how people play. The main complaint was that cult had become too fast paced and 'murderbonery', largely because people were, at round start and completely solo, summoning cult robes & sword and robusting the shit out of people, usually after slapping a stun talisman on them. Then they would use soul stones to enslave themself an army of minons (which hadn't been rebalanced to be the focal point of the round, so were really OP). This was making the round a complete steam roll that was even worse than Sabbot's convert cult (but did admit that it was atleast it was less stressful for sec as they knew who the threats were).
Now getting back to Oldman, in that thread he makes it out like's some sort of noble antagonist that tries to keep people in the round. In reality its complete bullshit, he was complaining so much because he wouldn't be able to win the round by himself. If he cared about keeping other people in the round for their enjoyment so much he wouldn't care if those players ghosted before he could sac them (afterall, a noble antag would realise its the player's choice if they want to continue on as a construct), in actuality he was throwing an absolute hissyfit because he wouldn't be able to stun > sword sword sword > stone => get new slave | rinse and repeat.
He wasn't stoning people to keep them in the round for their enjoyment, he was stoning them to get another weapon in his arsenal, another tool in his box - he was doing because it helped him get his precious green text. (otherwise why would he have complained so much about people ghosting before he got to stone them?)


Also the "Coding should be fun" line was my alternative way of saying "I'm horribly fucking depressed, again, I really don't need all this antagonism right now otherwise I'm going to jump off a bridge", because thats how I was really feeling at the time. In case you didn't notice, that PR was never commited (because I closed it), I locked the thread, and haven't coded for tg since then - and went elsewhere for my dose of spacesmens.
As I mentioned in that thread, I was already fed up with tg and coding for tg but only attempted to patch up some of the issues with cult because I don't like leaving things half done.


Cheridan wrote:
Malkevin wrote:[*] Cry as Coderbus rips your baby apart and realise none of the maintainers or headcoders, or anyone that matters in coderbus, actually bothers reading the forum


I hate posting this here as it's fairly unrelated, but I keep seeing posts like this from you and it's something I want to address.

You keep blaming the maintainer team for your frustrations with the project, but your difficulties in contributing with the project lie in your own refusal to cooperate with others. From the very outset you had a "I want to code but I don't want to be a Coder" mentality, and I've personally seen you saying, in deadchat, how you refuse to go into irc for discussion because you hate and don't want to be associated with us. Of course on the forums the reason you gave was "I just don't like chatrooms", so it was eye-opening to see how you really feel.
People who are willing to discuss changes beforehand get the advantage of being able to iron out any issues before they go to the trouble of actually doing it.

Let's take a look at your baby being "ripped apart":
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/3937
Here you can see: me giving you my support for the change, and moderation for overblown comments. Miauw giving information and trying to keep the discussion under control. Anonus making lots of helpful comments.
Giacom's kind of being a jerk as usual but I think his frustration over the many rapid balance changes that were happening to Cult at the time was valid.

And the supporting thread!
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=700

Lots of dissent, mostly from players, presented in a pretty reasonable non-shitstormy manner. Despite the rhetoric to the contrary, we actually *gasp* do listen to the players. When there's a lot of opposition to a balance change like this, the maintainer team is going to find it more difficult to want to merge it.

In this case, both the playerbase and the maintainership is responding to problems they see, which is their right and their responsibility. The variable that's left, is you.

Spoiler:
Image

Its like you can read but can't read at the same time.

I'm not talking just about that cult change, I'm talking about my general experience with coding for tg.
I always put up a feedback thread before I coded anything, hell I even made one for my Sec Voice Masks, and there was always little no feedback from coders (the worst offender being Giacom) in practically all cases.
Even that cult PR had a design doc feedback thread up long before I started coding it - only problem was after I posted that thread Errorage kicked you guys off his board and the forums split - so a lot people didn't see it, hence why I made a second thread on this forum, which ended up being after I'd started coding it because there was very little opposition to it in the first thread.
To say that I don't cooperate with others is down right insulting when I've been about the only person thats made it a habit to have their changes discussed their via the medium that reaches the largest audience possible.

You know, when both Giacom and Miauw are telling me to make a forum thread about a change when a thread already exists, and is in fact the reason how ForcefulCJ found github in the first place and went on a mega rant on there. really says just how attentive the 'management' of coderbus are to their own forum... (hell, there was even a link to that thread in the first post on github...)


Whilst I'm being open and honest, yeah - I'll come clean.
I don't join the coderbus channel because I hate chatrooms, I don't join because I just don't like some of the people in it.
There, I've said it - happy?

You know how I always said I planned for phase 1 of cult to be live on the server for a few weeks, then code the adjustments needed to balance it out?
This was true, and is why cult is currently an unbalanced mess.
You know how I said I got a new job and ended up being really busy so never got around to coding phase 2 until three seasons later?
Half truth, the first job the shifts were god awful and the environment was depressive so I left after three months. Second job, granted there were a lot of busy periods, but I did have a lot more free time than I lead on.
So why did put off coding phase 2 for so long? It wasn't because I didn't want to code it, or didn't feel like coding at the time, it was just because I didn't want to deal with cunts you have for Maintainers.

Coding being a lot of work I can handle, players having as much decorium as a cage of monkeys... I can handle.
The people that can approve or deny your work being complete and utter twats that acted oblivious to the amount of prework I do to ensure my changes are player approved? That was a major downer and greatly discouraged me from coding.

Cherriden, like Erro said, you're not too bad. Neither is Fleure or Remi. You're good apples, but as the old saying goes - it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch.
When we're talking about Coderbus being an INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower from which showers a bunch of cunts we're not talking about you good apples, we're talking about the bad ones - the worst of which for me was Giacom, I'm really glad he's gone as it seems the other two people that constantly acted like twats (Aran and Miauw) seem to have railed themselves in a fair bit.


Even if I did join the channel what then? I'm a very opinionated individual that often goes against what you lot stand for, I'd either get worn out like Ikarus/Petethegoat or thrown out like Startoad, or worse I'd become one of you people - I was already becoming a bitter arse hole that was starting to think the playerbase was too stupid for their own good, and that was just from interacting with you guys through github.


What it really boils down to is the question "Who are you people? No really?", who were you people in this community before becoming coders? I can easily answer that.
Aside from Aran and HG I really can't say I know any of you in Coderbus's leadership that was actually a part of this community before taking up positions in coderbus - its like a bunch of space aliens suddenly took over the government.
I really mean that, at one point when a controversial change happened the first question was always "who the hell is this guy?"
There always was an us vs them mentality but it became more and more real as people realised that there really were two distinct groups, that people weren't joining as players and then going onto coding/admining but actually joining those groups right off the bat and making changes that went against the grain.
You all seem to forget that when coding for codes sake and making changes for the sake of making changes you're messing with something that a lot more people enjoy as a pass time, you are messing with their pass time. No one ever asked you guys to come out of nowhere and start balancing things no one ever complained about (e.g. quick pass out choking, passive throwing - two things that were key to robustness and being able to survive/win a fight unarmed). This is a game infamous for clunk design and 'robust' (in an ironic way) mechanics, it gave the game a lot of charm and thats why we play it.

That is what causes the contention and that is what causes the hostility.
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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby dezzmont » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:53 pm #47714

Sorry that shit went down the way it did for you Malk. No one deserves that, even if I don't agree with your changes.

I am not really game for discussing this more. I said my peace, and I think HG proved my point rather well by locking the thread, and you are proving it more. I don't think you were an ass malk or entirely wrong, that thread was gold in a design sense, from what I saw what should have happened happened save for perhaps a bit too much aggression for a mainstream project, and not an example of coders being jerks. I actually remember you and while you could at times be touchy you were mostly a decent example of a human being.

And there is a huge difference between running a project like a PR firm and running it with any semblance of professionalism. No one expects coderbus to launch a PR campaign, but the point is that it is so clearly incompetent corrupt no one is going to be nice to them or assume the best of them.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:59 am #47775

Why was the original thread locked to begin with?
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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby ThatSlyFox » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:10 am #47779

Well HG was involved. People talking about recent code changes and the hostility from it. Sure you can figure out the rest. Refusing to talk about this issue is going to cause it to blow up. In the words of Sam Cooke " A change is gonna come".
Hornygranny wrote:I forgot to address adrix89's question about voting: this will never happen under my reign of terror.
This was probably a joke but we all know it is true.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby dezzmont » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:19 am #47781

Steelpoint wrote:Why was the original thread locked to begin with?

HG felt that it "jumped the shark" because the discussion of hostility towards coders naturally lead to, you know, why people may be hostile to coders. Did a pretty good job demonstrating why that may be the case.

ThatSlyFox wrote:Well HG was involved. People talking about recent code changes and the hostility from it. Sure you can figure out the rest. Refusing to talk about this issue is going to cause it to blow up. In the words of Sam Cooke " A change is gonna come".
Hornygranny wrote:I forgot to address adrix89's question about voting: this will never happen under my reign of terror.
This was probably a joke but we all know it is true.


To be fair out and out diplomacy is a terrible idea in design. It leads to feature creep (Nothing 'cool' will ever be taken out), power creep (No one will ever vote for nerfs unless shit is bonkers broken, which is bad) reduced complexity (because nothing can be nerfed eventually options will develop that are strong enough that everyone uses them and nothing can realistically be buffed to compete without breaking things more) and punishment towards unpopular classes.

And, frankly, a change wont really come because the coders as a whole don't give a shit, and while individual coders may not be at all important as they think they are SS13 as a whole would not really continue without a code team, meaning its hard, though not impossible, for anyone to enforce change on them. If no one in coderbus actually cares about the quality of their bureaucracy despite how appallingly apparent it is that it is broken on some level, nothing is going to happen.

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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby ThatSlyFox » Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:24 am #47796

Why is why I always say we need to vote on major shit. Not minor things. But I agree with your second part.

Wish SoS would take some action.

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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Spacezenegger » Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:51 am #47801

Malkevin rocks. He would always post feedback threads before implementing his code into the game. You don't do that, this happens: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2140 and viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1833. That and y'know actually testing the code in-game before getting it pulled.

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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby paprika » Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:33 am #47806

No, he never really did. His cult changes were publicly hated and now he's on menopause about it.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Giacom » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:34 am #47842

Malk just hates me because I was tired of the constant changes to cult and the "drama" it was causing, I don't usually act like a twat for no reason.

See: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/3937
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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby oranges » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:56 am #47845

You know, I speak out against the general opinion of coderbus a lot and I'm still here.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby MisterPerson » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:57 am #47846

Malkevin wrote:Aside from Aran and HG I really can't say I know any of you in Coderbus's leadership that was actually a part of this community before taking up positions in coderbus - its like a bunch of space aliens suddenly took over the government.


You know what Malk, if you're going to post bullshit and try to start drama, I'm glad I don't have to put up with your whiny shit anymore. I've been part of this community for 2 goddamn years. Giacom was here before I started. Rock predated /tg/station entirely. Miauw's been here about a year (not sure, don't care). But keep enjoying your shitty appeal to authority there by assuming you're better than everyone because you've played a -game- for longer.

Way to fail the entire fucking point of a collaborative project. But whatever, if you don't want to get along, that's fine, just go somewhere else. Don't come to the forums and make gigantic, irrelevant, stupid posts where you just bitch that people were mean to you. You're not going to get sympathy by spouting bullshit and claiming you were bullied. Man the fuck up.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Aranclanos » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:17 am #47848

the thread purpose was to figure a way to stop fights on these forums, not to plan new ways of github organizations for coders/mantainers/commits. The thread was too derailed, after I made a bunch of requests to stop derailing I was still being ignored. I think it was fine to lock it, I believe I raised a point for everyone, maybe things will change with the help of everyone.

And I don't think this thread is a good idea, it goes against all objectives of the previous thread.
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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Malkevin » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:07 am #47867

paprika wrote:No, he never really did. His cult changes were publicly hated and now he's on menopause about it.


Uh huh... check the dates
Two word cult - PR and feedback thread made at the same time for feedback from both camps
http://wildhogs.canadian-pharmacy.us/ph ... hilit=cult
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/993

Construct Changes - again, feedback and PR posted at the same time
http://wildhogs.canadian-pharmacy.us/ph ... hilit=cult
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/997


Phase 1: Look how I'm discussing the changes with players/coders as things go along.
http://wildhogs.canadian-pharmacy.us/ph ... hilit=cult
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/3143

Phase 2: months of difference
http://wildhogs.canadian-pharmacy.us/ph ... ilit=+cult
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/3937



@Giacom - either you're confusing drama for one player (Oldman) being incredibly vocal and making multiple multipage tirades, with a couple of others getting their digs in, or you're confusing me for Sabbat:
http://wildhogs.canadian-pharmacy.us/ph ... hilit=cult
*Theres* your cult drama (and look how some people were begging me, by name, to change cult from convert cult)

Whereas the feedback to phase 1 of my change was mostly positive but needed improvement:
http://wildhogs.canadian-pharmacy.us/ph ... hilit=cult
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Aranclanos » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:10 am #47869

What's the purpose of this thread?
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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Scott » Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:27 pm #47944

I think people on both sides need to try to understand each other better.

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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Miauw » Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:30 pm #47945

ThatSlyFox wrote:Well HG was involved. People talking about recent code changes and the hostility from it. Sure you can figure out the rest. Refusing to talk about this issue is going to cause it to blow up. In the words of Sam Cooke " A change is gonna come".
Hornygranny wrote:I forgot to address adrix89's question about voting: this will never happen under my reign of terror.
This was probably a joke but we all know it is true.

trying to stir up shit also makes it blow up.
i've explained several times why straight votes are a bad idea, go look it up in the thread.

(and i disagree with the locking of the thread since it was still good and interesting but vOv)

E:
i've been playing spesshmans for almost two years and have been coding for about one and a half (i think), originally on urist mcstation but urist was always empty so i started playing on basil.
not that that is relevant in any way, but hey :V
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby dezzmont » Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:56 pm #47947

Aranclanos wrote:the thread purpose was to figure a way to stop fights on these forums, not to plan new ways of github organizations for coders/mantainers/commits. The thread was too derailed, after I made a bunch of requests to stop derailing I was still being ignored. I think it was fine to lock it, I believe I raised a point for everyone, maybe things will change with the help of everyone.

And I don't think this thread is a good idea, it goes against all objectives of the previous thread.

Just because someone says something you find unpleasant doesn't mean it is off topic.

The discussion of organization of coderbus was directly related to the discussion on stopping fights on the forums. You may not agree with what is being said, but it was clearly on topic.

You want to stop hostility? Great. You want to stop hostility without having to examine why people may be hostile towards you? Well I am sorry but changing other people's perceptions of you in in life generally requires you to evaluate your own actions, and isn't about trying to lock down people's hostility. Emotions are, by nature, valid, even if they are irrational. Even if you do not deserve hostility, your own actions or lack of actions are the only thing you can control to combat it or, frankly, cause it.

People will not change their behavior or thoughts because you want them to. You need to change your behavior to affect them. Not in a "do what we say" sense but in a logical "why is this happening?" sense. You need to understand where people's emotions and thoughts come from and address that, and being unwilling to is generally considered a sign of egocentric behavior, being emotionally stunted, or not having a fully matured set of ethics and values.

Aranclanos wrote:What's the purpose of this thread?


The purpose is to allow people to continue the conversation despite the fact you feel you lost control of it, because people don't get to own conversations. They belong to everyone.

Also because its pretty apparent that you only are shouting this is off topic because you probably feel that the discussion should be how coderbus can control the conversation, and not how perhaps coderbus's reputations and relations are a sign of a deeper problem. Anyone with critical thinking skills and reading comprehension can see how the two discussions relate, so you either need to be kinda dull to not see it or find the implications of the discussion upsetting enough to not want to.

To put it another way, do you think it would be ethical for Malk to have your posts deleted from this thread because he didn't agree it was on topic? Do you believe I have the right to demand that you unconditionally agree with me that something is the source of a problem regardless of how little sense I make? Should anyone here be allowed to say 'discussing policy is not allowed in this thread' despite the fact the entire conversation started with YOU trying to make policy changes on the forum?

No? Of course not. That is stupid.

So now the question is as follows. Do you believe other people do not deserve to be treated the way you wish to be treated? Do you believe you have the right to control them in ways you do not wish to be controlled? If so then you either have shit tier empathy and don't recognize that as people they are as important as you, or you are a sociopath.

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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Cheridan » Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:54 pm #47971

oranges wrote:You know, I speak out against the general opinion of coderbus a lot and I'm still here.


SOON :twisted:
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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Aranclanos » Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:58 pm #47972

The deal of the thread was to work together to figure out a way to have a better place where we could discuss the feedback of the game, not to start blaming people for particular events. No, it wasn't a place to talk about the github organization of commits, no, it is not related. The request of having your thread not derailed it doesn't mean that it's because of some political reasons, I'm trying to make things better for everyone. I didn't request the thread to be locked or even agreed with it, but I didn't complain.
The issues that malk is bringing up happened a year and a half ago, the most recent one six months ago. Answering my own question, this is just needless drama, just to win an internet discussion on who to blame. Take it to PM and stop running politics.
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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby dezzmont » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:16 pm #47976

Aranclanos wrote:The deal of the thread was to work together to figure out a way to have a better place where we could discuss the feedback of the game, not to start blaming people for particular events.


This place is hostile! Well, not right now that we have a code freeze, but it's ending soon and I'm fearing that the bickering between parties will start soon. Is it the players to blame when it comes to feedback angry threads and responses or we are just lacking organization?Take a look at the FNR threads, while they are really restricted on who can post, they do have a ruleset for organization, that reduced a lot the forum fights that came out from it.
Should we have a ruleset and guides on how to provide feedback? And if that, how exactly? It's not rare that one of these threads get half of their posts deleted, it's kinda silly.

I'm not a forum admin and I don't moderate this place, so my perspective might be lacking some information, so I'd like to hear what others think.


You have no idea how pathetic your continued insistence that this is off topic pointless drama comes across as.

You raised the question about origination and policy. Not me.

You raised the question about who is to blame. Not me.

So people started talking about it and raised points that were personally upsetting to you. Now you are unable to handle the fact that, in fact, the answer may be that it is your fault. So now you are trying to dictate the limits of the conversation, but I don't think anyone is buying it. You can either keep trying to insist that it is not relevant or pointless drama, or you can evaluate your own actions. But you are demonstrating why there is a problem with how you choose to conduct yourself by how you respond here. Your hypocrisy is downright staggering.

You chose to bring up hostility between the coder community and the player-base, and when it became apparent that it would not be a conversation directed towards a highly limited area you wanted to talk about you started to try to shut people down.

Now you can be an adult and realize you have no right to dictate what other people can talk about, or you can keep throwing what amounts to a temper tantrum here trying to tell people they must take it to PMs.
Last edited by dezzmont on Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Aranclanos » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:19 pm #47977

I was talking about the organization of the forums
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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby dezzmont » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:20 pm #47978

Aranclanos wrote:I was talking about the organization of the forums

Yeah, and?

You still were clearly looking to blame people, but now that people are blaming you you say its not about blaming people.

You want to make new rules to limit how people behave, but you are upset people want to talk about limiting you.

You do not get to start this conversation and then get upset because people start examining your behavior. That isn't how life works.

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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Aranclanos » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:29 pm #47983

No, I wasn't blaming anyone but the system. The point that I was raising is that there isn't a guideline on how to provide feedback.
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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby dezzmont » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:35 pm #47985

Aranclanos wrote:No, I wasn't blaming anyone but the system. The point that I was raising is that there isn't a guideline on how to provide feedback.


That is nice. You still raised the question of blame and created a discussion dedicated towards trying to limit hostility. You then acted like a conversation and people's thoughts were a possession you could own and dictate in an, and I hope I am not being too overblown, Orwellian manner. You act like we can seriously tackle complicated problems by you proposing an idea and not allowing anyone to offer counter point as to what the root cause may be.

Do you understand that trying to dictate what other people can or can't talk about in an open discussion about a problem is unacceptable behavior to try to enforce on adults? Especially when there were no personal attacks flying around and people were discussing the idea of groups and systems rather than individuals? Or do you still feel you have a right to enforce personally approved topics we are allowed to discuss? Do you still think we need your permission to hold this conversation?

If so, then let me put it like this:

No, the idea of treating feedback like FNR is stupid because FNR has involved parties, which is where the need for those rules come from. Feedback thread topics affect everyone. The idea is limited in scope and assumes the problem comes from the player-base out of nowhere just because 'chaos' even though people are perfectly capable of being respectful in other places without you mandating rules for how they can talk to you. This raises implications that you are wrong about the source of the problem, and because we can't talk about it here because you, oh thread starter, are the lord of the conversation, this conversation is worthless.

Now that this is a new thread, by your own rule-set Malk is king of this fiefdom and gets to dictate the limits as the thread starter. Not you. And I believe by context that our lordship has approved this topic.

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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Aranclanos » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:51 pm #47988

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough, there isn't anything behind it, I was just asking for opinions on how to make the feedback discussion better, stating several times that I'm no administrator of those forums and that I was looking for how do they think that the forum organization should be. I never dictated what can other people talk or can't, I did request it several times on the same threads with posts, pointing out that it wasn't the objective of the thread, but that's about it, no posts was deleted or reported as far as I know. The word dictating is really out of place.
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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby oranges » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:15 pm #48005

It's all about the tone of posts.

Certain people come in and post feedback that comes across as very angry, I'm sure they didn't intend it, but thats how it is.

of course coders get defensive and either respond in kind or just ignore the forum.

That sets up a cycle where people get angry when coders respond rudely or they feel they are ignored and get angry about that and make more angry posts.

In short you need to hire a lot of moderators and introduce a rule that rude or offensive comments by either side will get deleted with no warnings or recourse, continued infractions will put you on moderator approval for posts.

In other forums it's fine for dicussion to be harsher and violent, but it's not being constructive in this sub forum.

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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby paprika » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:26 pm #48008

The only response to obvious trolling or people who immediately attack your character is either responding in turn with the insults, or outright ignoring them. I can agree that neither of these things is productive, but it's not the fault of the coder, period.

Coders have never been required to be polite anywhere but github or the IRC AFAIK. The only people who should be bothered by the tone of posts in the feedback forum is MSO and his moderators. If he wants to lay out rules for this forum, or allow the head coders/maintainers to do it themselves, than he should do so. The authority of the coding section being split between the global forum moderators and the coders has caused a lot of confusion, especially with certain code-mods deleting posts.

It's obvious that there needs to be a different set of rules APART from the global rules for the code feedback forum.

Is this the wild west or something?
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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby dezzmont » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:46 pm #48012

oranges wrote:It's all about the tone of posts.

Certain people come in and post feedback that comes across as very angry, I'm sure they didn't intend it, but thats how it is.

of course coders get defensive and either respond in kind or just ignore the forum.

That sets up a cycle where people get angry when coders respond rudely or they feel they are ignored and get angry about that and make more angry posts.

In short you need to hire a lot of moderators and introduce a rule that rude or offensive comments by either side will get deleted with no warnings or recourse, continued infractions will put you on moderator approval for posts.

In other forums it's fine for dicussion to be harsher and violent, but it's not being constructive in this sub forum.


paprika wrote:The only response to obvious trolling or people who immediately attack your character is either responding in turn with the insults, or outright ignoring them. I can agree that neither of these things is productive, but it's not the fault of the coder, period.

Coders have never been required to be polite anywhere but github or the IRC AFAIK. The only people who should be bothered by the tone of posts in the feedback forum is MSO and his moderators. If he wants to lay out rules for this forum, or allow the head coders/maintainers to do it themselves, than he should do so. The authority of the coding section being split between the global forum moderators and the coders has caused a lot of confusion, especially with certain code-mods deleting posts.

It's obvious that there needs to be a different set of rules APART from the global rules for the code feedback forum.

Is this the wild west or something?


Being hostile is already against the global rules, so either you just don't understand them or you are looking for stricter control over people's ability to disagree with you.

Aranclanos wrote:I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough, there isn't anything behind it, I was just asking for opinions on how to make the feedback discussion better, stating several times that I'm no administrator of those forums and that I was looking for how do they think that the forum organization should be. I never dictated what can other people talk or can't, I did request it several times on the same threads with posts, pointing out that it wasn't the objective of the thread, but that's about it, no posts was deleted or reported as far as I know. The word dictating is really out of place.
I don't really want to keep posting here, sorry if I leave you hanging, I was trying to make things better for everyone, and now I have to defend myself for doing so.


Your first post was fine, but your actions afterward showed how little you actually care about honest discussion of this issue. You made it extremely clear that you felt your opinion on what should happen was the only valid one and that anything off topic was "pointless drama." And yes, you need to defend what you say and do when you try to make changes. That is a thing that happens in life, because other human beings have critical thinking skills. The fact you are acting wounded people don't roll over for you and want to continue what they feel is a productive talk is rather upsetting to hear.
Last edited by dezzmont on Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby oranges » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:48 pm #48013

paprika wrote:The only response to obvious trolling or people who immediately attack your character is either responding in turn with the insults, or outright ignoring them. I can agree that neither of these things is productive, but it's not the fault of the coder, period.


Two wrongs don't make a right, you can rip the salient points out of their diatribe and respond to them in a polite professional manner. It's pretty effective.

I don't want stricter control, if it's true that it's already against the rules then I want it enforced with jackbooted nazism in the feedback forum.

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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby dezzmont » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:51 pm #48015

oranges wrote:
paprika wrote:The only response to obvious trolling or people who immediately attack your character is either responding in turn with the insults, or outright ignoring them. I can agree that neither of these things is productive, but it's not the fault of the coder, period.


Two wrongs don't make a right, you can rip the salient points out of their diatribe and respond to them in a polite professional manner. It's pretty effective.

I don't want stricter control, if it's true that it's already against the rules then I want it enforced with jackbooted nazism in the feedback forum.


Yeah. One of the best responses to unwarrented anger is to just destroy someone with logic. Rage is a spice in arguments, it makes points seem more intense, but if you can utterly destroy those points you just make someone look like an ass for getting mad. Hell, if you want to see how effective it is check out how people just wrecked me in the P&P thread. I blew up at An0n3 for personal shit and because he kept his cool he came out looking awesome and I looked like an idiot.

The trick is to actually attack the points themselves, the ideas, and not where they are coming from, because otherwise you just end up in a fight.

If you can't figure out how to attack their key points while maintaining cohesion in your own point, that is a big deal by the way because if you need to abandon your position to defend yourself it generally means your base position was incorrect and the other guy had a point.

And if you just don't know how to respond that doesn't make you wrong. You can always step back. Calm down. Think about it and maybe even talk it out with someone. Killing aggression and being able to defend a stance honestly without throwing up bullshit to defend yourself, is a skill you develop over time, it doesn't spring from nothing, and not being able to do it doesn't make you dumb.

To get back onto the original point about finding ways to help reduce aggression, you could try upping your rhetoric game, which involves forcing administrative changes on neither yourself nor others. Knowing how to talk to people who are essentially your clients is a useful skill that not only allows you to avoid unpleasantness but actually is helpful in other ways too. It allows you to cut through other people's bullshit not just to break em down but to build them up. To understand what people want and why they may be upset with you. You may be able to discover a problem you didn't know was around because some angry asshole shouted about it and you developed nuance in dealing with assholes that doesn't make it a total chore, so you ended up hearing about it. You may encourage new coders or get people to help you out in other ways.

Spoiler:
You still really need to do some organizational stuff like forcing people to fix their own broken stuff holy shit the fact that isn't a thing is embarrassing.

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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby paprika » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:10 am #48019

The thing is, you can't really force people to fix their broken shit, just make sure they don't submit broken shit. Sure, not all bugs are caught initially, but yeah trying to force people to fix bugs they make or penalize them for not unfucking their shit is dumb.
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Re: Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby dezzmont » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:38 am #48025

paprika wrote:The thing is, you can't really force people to fix their broken shit, just make sure they don't submit broken shit.


You easily can. Individualized code freezes. "We don't upload anything you make if you leave bugs in long enough." They either never make anything again or fix their stuff. And if they drag their heels you can revert their change too.

The tools are there, the problem is that they would be extremely unpleasant to use, despite for the fact they would be a good way to correct a behavior that has no business occurring.


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