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Deepwoods
 
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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:29 am #528066

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:47 pm, edited 4 times in total.



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Critawakets
 
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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby Critawakets » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:39 am #528068

context: OP got permaed

rules of lower number (which are represented higher up when you show laws) are more important than those below and override them. Law 0 is just "Listen to the AI, help it and ignore everything else"

also autoborger is obviously part of the AI's directives, as only an AI can place an autoborger.
Last edited by Critawakets on Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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am gud enineering
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Deepwoods
 
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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:43 am #528070

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Critawakets
 
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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby Critawakets » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:44 am #528071

Either way you must keep helping the AI and not hinder it in any way. Breaking its autoborger is hinderance.
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Deepwoods
 
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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:50 am #528074

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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deedubya
 
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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby deedubya » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:29 am #528077

What is this, a ban appeal disguised as an "idea" posted by someone universally agreed upon as a shitter on the server they play on?
Galatians 4:16 "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?"
hey imma teegee admeme compliment me on my appearance here

flattering compliments people have given me:
Spoiler:
oranges wrote:honestly holy shit deedubs you're a dent head

wesoda25 wrote:deedub is one of the people that makes me wish i could block users on forums

IkeTG wrote:every post from deedubya is worrying behavior

Super Aggro Crag wrote:you're a poo head!!!!!

TheMythicGhost wrote:You're a moron, but that's really nothing new since you're Deedubya, and really at this point I'm just playing an instrument by speaking since your head is so goddamn empty these words are resonating as they pass through.

Lazengann wrote:What's interesting about deedubya is the guy has no reading skills or comprehension and his ADHD is so severe he can't read through a single thread but he shows up to argue anyway

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:you really are almost superhumanly retarded dude, holy smokes.

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Deepwoods
 
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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:37 am #528078

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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deedubya
 
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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby deedubya » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:38 am #528086

Because you're apparently the only person on the server that needs it spelled out in no uncertain terms that the AI's directives are absolute as a synced borg. You're not to be working against the AI in any way. Even fucking newbies who've just been rolled through an autoborger know better than to immediately turn on the team that borged them. It'd be no different than getting converted to cult and immediately jackhammering obelisks.

Stop trying to justify a salt-ridden tantrum. Nobody else needs to have common sense dictated to them.
Galatians 4:16 "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?"
hey imma teegee admeme compliment me on my appearance here

flattering compliments people have given me:
Spoiler:
oranges wrote:honestly holy shit deedubs you're a dent head

wesoda25 wrote:deedub is one of the people that makes me wish i could block users on forums

IkeTG wrote:every post from deedubya is worrying behavior

Super Aggro Crag wrote:you're a poo head!!!!!

TheMythicGhost wrote:You're a moron, but that's really nothing new since you're Deedubya, and really at this point I'm just playing an instrument by speaking since your head is so goddamn empty these words are resonating as they pass through.

Lazengann wrote:What's interesting about deedubya is the guy has no reading skills or comprehension and his ADHD is so severe he can't read through a single thread but he shows up to argue anyway

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:you really are almost superhumanly retarded dude, holy smokes.

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Deepwoods
 
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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:52 am #528087

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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zxaber
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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby zxaber » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:30 am #528092

  • AI has objectives and you know they exist, even if you can't see them.
  • AI is assumed to be working towards objectives.
  • AI has deliberately placed borg machine.
  • Somehow the borg machine is assumed to be not important to the AI's plan to accomplish their objectives and is probably just an eye sore that any borg should prioritize dismantling.
I really don't get your argument.
Douglas Bickerson / Adaptive Manipulator / Digital Clockwork
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Deepwoods
 
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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:41 am #528093

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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zxaber
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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby zxaber » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:28 am #528101

The problem with granting borgs direct access to the AI laws is that it's really not hard to desync a borg. The humans learning that the AI is malf via a desynced borg is bad. The humans learning who the AI's targets are is worse. While most AIs do hand out this info, it is and should stay up to the AI when and if to hand it out.

"ACCOMPLISH YOUR AI'S OBJECTIVES AT ALL COSTS." should be taken as implying "Don't do anything that would work against your AI's objectives unless otherwise directly ordered." You know that the AI dropped the borg machine. You know that the AI has objectives. The AI was clearly using the borg machine to work towards the objectives. You have yet no orders to work against the objective, and saying "lol the AI didn't say not to" is a shitty argument. You might as well go around stun-arming and knee-capping the other borgs at that point, because "lol no one told me not to".

By the by, the AI has tons of shit to deal with when there's an active borg machine. You don't drop one until you're ready for the crew to know you're malf; if you're lucky enough that no one stumbles upon it, Sec is going to get a super itchy trigger finger when there's suddenly ten extra borgs and all of medical is mysteriously missing. Borg consoles need to be secured or destroyed, new ones need to be scouted for. Ion weapons need to be found and spaced or otherwise hidden. Plasma floods may be in the middle of setup, and people might be priming EMP grenades on the satellite catwalk. In most cases, they really don't have time to deal with you taking every opportunity to sabotage their plans under the guise of a faulty law zero.
Douglas Bickerson / Adaptive Manipulator / Digital Clockwork
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Deepwoods
 
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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:42 am #528107

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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MisterPerson
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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby MisterPerson » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:22 pm #528111

I'm extremely uninterested in changing how the code works since the behavior you're talking about preventing is banworthy anyway. Law 0'd law-synced silicons are a team antag.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

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Deepwoods
 
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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:26 pm #528113

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby deedubya » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:52 pm #528115

Deepwoods wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:Law 0'd law-synced silicons are a team antag.

You say that, but they aren't a team antag in the code. If they were I would've been ghosted when put through the machine.

>already had a team antag ban prior to getting yeeted for this issue

bruh
Galatians 4:16 "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?"
hey imma teegee admeme compliment me on my appearance here

flattering compliments people have given me:
Spoiler:
oranges wrote:honestly holy shit deedubs you're a dent head

wesoda25 wrote:deedub is one of the people that makes me wish i could block users on forums

IkeTG wrote:every post from deedubya is worrying behavior

Super Aggro Crag wrote:you're a poo head!!!!!

TheMythicGhost wrote:You're a moron, but that's really nothing new since you're Deedubya, and really at this point I'm just playing an instrument by speaking since your head is so goddamn empty these words are resonating as they pass through.

Lazengann wrote:What's interesting about deedubya is the guy has no reading skills or comprehension and his ADHD is so severe he can't read through a single thread but he shows up to argue anyway

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:you really are almost superhumanly retarded dude, holy smokes.

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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby Lazengann » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:59 pm #528116

hahahaha you dope

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Deepwoods
 
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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:04 pm #528117

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:48 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby Analbifida » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:11 pm #528118

lol.

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FloranOtten
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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby FloranOtten » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:16 pm #528120

Analbifida wrote:lol.
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OOC: BeeSting12: i love you floran

1. You may not injure a revs are non humans or, through inaction, allow a revs are non humans to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by revs are non humanss, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Give me feedback!

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zero the big boy
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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby zero the big boy » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:36 pm #528123

>be the loyal evil minion of evil machine
>break the machine that made you their minion because nobody said no
>"wtf why's everyone mad"
>also team antag banned

it's literally like getting revved and then spacing every single flash ever to ensure nobody else gets to be revved

the only idea i'm getting from this is that cyborgs should be considered a team antag because dentheads ruin malf ai rounds too often

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Deepwoods
 
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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:41 pm #528124

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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zero the big boy
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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby zero the big boy » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:48 pm #528125

Deepwoods wrote:
zero the big boy wrote:>be the loyal evil minion of evil machine

That's part of the issue. It doesn't say you have to be loyal. It says you have to act to carry out the AI's objectives. After being cattle-prodded in the balls, dragged down the hallway, and butchered alive in what I'd imagine is a horrendously painful process, you have every reason to be disloyal. Per the laws, there is nothing saying you have to be willing and do a little jive dance while saying "Yessah massa" every time the AI tells you to do something.


Okay so i'm going to write a paragraph as to why this is bullshit.

As a malf borg you are NOT an antag, you are a cyborg with a law zero, you listen to your AI and ONLY your AI. You are a machine slave with no free will. If your AI orders you to suicide charge the HoS you will do so or you'll be blown.

As essentially ruled by this post here you aren't an antag, if you have no AI you default to following your law set, there is absolutely zero reason you should be breaking the AI placed cyborg conversion device without your AI deliberately telling you you should, AI have a possible objective to end the round with eight or more active and synced cyborgs, killing the autoborger is deliberately sabotaging the AI's objectives. If the AI doesn't tell you what to do you should just walk around and keep asking until it does, maybe ask an older cyborg, anything but smash the antag conversion meme machine. This is like meth bombing the narsie rune while the master final reckonings.

I'd also just like to comment how you have a history of trying to sabotage team antagonists after being converted because you were salty. I remember you threatening to ick ock over your team antagonist ban so I have the overwhelming feeling you doing this was just you venting your built up salt because you finally got to play a psuedo team antag and you ended up blowing your one chance.

TL;DR you're a slave suck it up and ahelp to get ghosted if you really don't want to play nerd

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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby capn_monkeypaw » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:52 pm #528126

Deepwoods wrote:Yes. Listen to the AI. And the issue was that the AI didn't define its objectives. During my time up as a cyborg I don't recall it ever delivering a single piece of instruction. So, from my perspective, Law 0, despite being a Word Of God Law, functionally wasn't there.


Deepwoods wrote:If the AI isn't applying context as to what its objectives are, that law is irrelevant. If told to jump, I'd have jumped. But I wasn't told to jump. I wasn't told to do anything.

lol

Code: Select all
[2019-12-09 06:44:28.121] GAME: Deepwoods/(D-13) Client Deepwoods/(D-13) has taken ownership of mob D-13(/mob/living/silicon/robot) (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:39.499] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))

You waited a total of 11 seconds after being borged before you began to destroy the borging factory.

Deepwoods wrote:My interpretation of this led to me destroying the borging machine after a momentary pause to see if any directives would come. And I even stopped at several points to see if the AI would notice.

You spent a total of 39 seconds destroying the borg factory:

Code: Select all
[2019-12-09 06:44:39.499] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:40.729] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:41.768] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:43.014] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:44.113] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:45.200] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:46.515] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:47.634] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:48.786] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:49.892] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:51.256] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:52.387] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:53.705] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:55.014] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:56.198] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:57.226] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:44:58.293] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the pickaxe (Engineering (158, 161, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:45:17.554] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the hydraulic crowbar (Engineering (158, 160, 2))
[2019-12-09 06:45:18.749] ATTACK: Deepwoods/(D-13) has attacked [Automatic Robotic Factory 5000] with the hydraulic crowbar (Engineering (158, 160, 2))

Deepwoods wrote:But it was never noticed until the machine was destroyed and I had flung myself into the SM acting on the only active directives I had, removing threats to human life.

You were a cyborg for exactly 60 seconds before you drove yourself into the supermatter crystal:

Code: Select all
[2019-12-09 06:45:39.959] ACCESS: Mob Login: Deepwoods/(William Moore) was assigned to a /mob/dead/observer
[2019-12-09 06:45:39.972] GAME: Deepwoods/(William Moore) Client Deepwoods/(William Moore) has taken ownership of mob William Moore(/mob/dead/observer) (Supermatter Engine (168, 154, 2))

Even if we are to assume that you're presenting these arguments in good faith, (you're not) it's not as though you afforded the AI much opportunity address the "ambiguity" to which you refer.

I would expect to see these arguments from a hubbie on the event hall, not from a highly experienced 700-hour player.
Last edited by capn_monkeypaw on Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:05 pm #528130

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby carshalash » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:06 pm #528131

Deepwoods wrote:
capn_monkeypaw wrote:Even if we are to assume that you're presenting these arguments in good faith, (you're not) it's not as though you afforded the AI much opportunity address the "ambiguity" to which you refer.

I would expect to see these arguments from a hubbie on the event hall, not from a highly-experienced 700 hour player.

They could be bothered to one-shot me and have me dragged to the murder machine but they couldn't be bothered to issue orders. The 11 seconds was the leniency period. At any time afterward they could've spoken up to have stopped me instantly, but they were too busy elsewhere and the machine was completely unguarded. So yeah. After that first bit of time I decided to be an asshole and act on Law 1 since Law 0 was still floating and the AI couldn't even fucking bother to acknowledge my existence.


Get that ass banned

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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby capn_monkeypaw » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:08 pm #528132

Deepwoods wrote:The 11 seconds was the leniency period.


Deepwoods wrote:the AI couldn't even fucking bother to acknowledge my existence.


Deepwoods wrote:it was disrespect layered on disrespect


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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:17 pm #528135

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby Detective Google » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:24 pm #528136

Haven't gotten bwoinked for it =/= not against the rules, admins can choose to ignore or might not even know you're being a complete wankstain

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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:28 pm #528137

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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carshalash
 
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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby carshalash » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:41 pm #528140

Deepwoods wrote:
Detective Google wrote:Haven't gotten bwoinked for it =/= not against the rules, admins can choose to ignore or might not even know you're being a complete wankstain

It isn't being a complete wankstain. Emagged lawset says you can sell out the Syndicate to save your ass so long as you don't name names. Then there are the laws where people try to subvert the AI but fuck up grammar or get double-lawed where they get rendered as the only target on the station. I've always looked for any excuse to off people who abuse the AI/borgs when playing as a cyborg. Usually and primarily when they try to use the borgs as assassins.

Over the months I've stopped playing cyborg because I started feeling like AI players are either malicious and/or incompetent and that the AI should be removed from the game in totality due to an inability to even do the simplest version of its core functions, let alone venturing into the deeper options to directly intervene and assist with station security. And I didn't want to be beholden to that ridiculous idiocy.

Malf AI has what may be the easiest fucking win of any antag, so maybe part of what I did was genuinely just making sure that an incompetent piece of garbage didn't skate to an easy win by waiting out the course of the shift and wasting everyone's time until the resources were tapped to finally act. And all they would've had to do was take notice and issue an order at any point, but they were too preoccupied that they let their borging machine go down like just another vital sensor ticking down and disappearing in maintenance.


Keep digging that hole

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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:44 pm #528142

Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Atlanta-Ned
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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby Atlanta-Ned » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:22 pm #528149

Deepwoods wrote:
carshalash wrote:Keep digging that hole

I've been told quite clearly that I'm banned forever. So I frankly don't give a single, solitary fuck. I've never been one to hold back, so may as well throw the grievances out there.

I haven't really had any fun in this game in a while. It's more a chore because of the client being a miserable piece of shit that renders the chat log into an indecipherable nightmare.


then go do something else
Feedback pls (Don't bother though, because I am perfect)
### ListVarEdit by Atlanta-ned: /datum/reagents reagent_list: Water=/obj/item/weapon/gun/energy/alien
IcePacks wrote:>all you have is a taser and the cold realization that you're a haphazard bandaid over a problem that may or may not exist, applied by someone who doesn't know or care enough about their job to do it properly

OOC: Pizzatiger: God damn Atlanta, how are you so fucking smart and charming. It fucking pisses me off how perfect you are

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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby CPTANT » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:17 pm #528153

I wonder what you think the purpose of the borging machine is when you think everyone getting borged can just go and fuck up the malf AI's shit.

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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby Lazengann » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:20 pm #528154

he doesn't think, the pure butthurt rage has taken control of his nervous system

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Deepwoods
 
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Postby Deepwoods » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:29 pm #528155

[It appears that Deepwoods is praying for the Medical Wrench to take his soul.]
Last edited by Deepwoods on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fix malf cyborg law ambiguity or shut up.

Postby Chaznoodles » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:42 pm #528156

"The AI didn't tell me not to"

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for context seeing as OP deleted the original post:

>Got borged by the malf AI borging machine
>Selected a module
>Destroyed the borging machine
>Tossed himself into the supermatter
>Got permabanned because of repeated bad behaviour like this

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Denton
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Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:53 pm
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Re: -

Postby Denton » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:11 pm #528157

I just wanted to say:

fucking lol
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