Should I run for headmin?

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Malkevin

Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Malkevin » #116707

Bottom post of the previous page:

I was saying you TRY to act like professionals, stop being silly and nit picky.

Obviously bug fixes wouldn't have to go through the week waiting period.
And by that I mean actual bug fixes, not changing the game or removing features because its easier than actually fixing whats there.
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Scott » #116715

~
Steelpoint wrote:Bugs caused be newer features you mean?

The game is not in a state where if coders disappeared that the game will crash with no survivors. Any bugs that currently exsit in game are not sufficiently game breaking, because if they were they would have been fixed/reverted in short order.
You're naive. The code can always use improving to run faster and it can always use new features or changes so the game doesn't go stale. And bugs will always exist.
Malkevin wrote:
palpatine213 wrote:If the codebase is player driven, and everything requires player approval, how would you handle exploits or obviously unbalanced features?
For example, how the crusher used to make infinite diamonds.
I'm pretty sure that if someone made a pr to fix that, then there would be a bunch of players that would complain that they cant do R&d without mining anymore.
Under your proposed system, wouldn't that pr be closed and rejected?
I'm thinking there should be some kind of design team of four-five people that are elected by the players to go "yeah that shits dumb"

Of course dumb shit like that hopefully wouldn't implemented anyway because of the review stage prior to coding it.


@goofball - okay you're just being stupid now, I'm done debating with you, and massively you're derailing my thread so either stfu or gtfo - vote for me or don't vote for me, thats your choice.
Design direction is a fair thing to desire, but I think it would drive people away from contributing. There is a stopper on what goes in right now, common sense used by maintainers and headcoder.


Malkevin wrote:I was saying you TRY to act like professionals, stop being silly and nit picky.

Obviously bug fixes wouldn't have to go through the week waiting period.
And by that I mean actual bug fixes, not changing the game or removing features because its easier than actually fixing whats there.
'Professionals' can mean anything. Professionals whose code isn't reviewed and so they can just write whatever works because the client won't know and won't care?
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Steelpoint
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Steelpoint » #116716

Naive? Maybe your too quick to decry my statements without reading it thoroughly.

If you read my post you'll note that I said that any 'gamebreaking' bugs are not currently prevalent in the game, I was not referring to general minor bugs such as missing descriptions or glitches. The game can always be improved and optimised but ultimately if all development of the game stopped today then the game would still continue to function just as well today as it did yesterday. Its just that there would be no further improvements to the game, feature of performance wise.
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Scott » #116717

And who do you think fixed the bugs that existed before the bugs you have now?
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Steelpoint
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Steelpoint » #116718

Scott wrote:And who do you think fixed the bugs that existed before the bugs you have now?
Is this a trick question?

My point stands, I'm not trying to ostracise or otherwise belittle anyone who codes and contributes to the game (considering I've done my fair share of contributions as well) but I simply stated how the game won't die if game development stops suddenly, which I know will not happen barring the server hoster (MSO) deciding to stop accepting changes from any code base.
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Malkevin

Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Malkevin » #116860

So... uhh.... anyone want to ask me some questions on POLICY?
You know... the job I'd actually be doing.
Malkevin

Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Malkevin » #116879

By the way Goof, if you're still wanting an example of bugs that crop in because the coder didn't bother testing their change...

I present to you today's bug that has broken buckling after a bugfix to prevent ghosts buckling people was implemented...
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Amelius » #116885

> Coders merge things to master without testing them, relying on the invisible hand of other coders to check their work.

Oh god why would you do this? This goes against even the most basic of basics of coding.
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Scott » #116888

Maybe it's not true.
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by duncathan » #116899

I guarantee you that he did test it. He ghosted and tried to buckle and it didn't buckle, so everything seemed to be working.

Seriously though, the idea of blacklisting coders who cause major bugs by failing to test pisses me off. I once accidentally broke atmos in a variety of ways. The first way was a runtime in the air controller that had to have a round played like normal to come up, so it wasn't caught. The second was a bug with ventcrawling not showing the pipes. I hadn't tested ventcrawling. The third was multiple bugs with certain machinery, namely freezers and cryo tubes. I hadn't at all tested those, either. The fourth was a bug with scrubbers failing to scrub N2O. I hadn't tested air alarms. Certainly, this would be grounds for blacklisting according to your idea, yes? After all, I wasn't thorough in my testing, and caused some round-ruining bugs.

Do you know what the maintainers and senior coders said? "It was a major rewrite of how atmos worked. There was bound to be some bugs. Don't worry; it'll get fixed."
And it was fixed. I fixed the bugs that I could find by going through my own code. Senior coders fixed the less obvious bugs, the ones caused by minor logic errors or by a misguided fix to another bug. Do you know what the final outcome was? Atmos had even fewer bugs than before my PR, atmos code had been significantly improved, and I'd learned far more from seeing my mistakes fixed than I would've by having them simply reverted.

Fact is, the maintainers are cool people who care about the long-term. You clearly care only for the short-term, based on your ideas for how coderbus should operate. A man caring only for the short-term is not only someone I want as far as possible from the codebase, but someone I'd never want as a headmin.
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Steelpoint
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Steelpoint » #116901

I think the point Malk was making went entirely over your head duncathan.

He's not saying that you'll be blacklisted for bugs or other issues that occur akin to what you described. He's saying that for bugs that can be found by just playing with the feature for a few minutes in game on a local server.

Its more so to do with people making a change or a feature and only compiling the code and not even running the change in game, thus assuming that since the code compiled that the changes work.

That's it.
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by duncathan » #116904

That's what I did, though. I touched ventcrawling and didn't even attempt to test it. Same with freezers, heaters, cryo tubes and air alarms. I didn't even try to interact with them; isn't that the same?
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Steelpoint
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Steelpoint » #116907

So what your saying is that you made a change (to multiple) systems but you did not actually test them on a local server?

Honestly if that's the case then you have no one to blame but yourself, that is really basic stuff. Hell when I did my resprites of the Abductor items I thoroughly tested the items in game just to ensure the sprites worked well.

Its like a engineer wondering why he's being arrested for not even running stress tests, or any tests, of the bridge he built/repaired.

E: Define for me 'testing'. Did you do the reasonable actions of interacting with the items in a basic manner or do you mean things that usually only occur on a live server (such as the live server often screwing things up)>

If you did test the items on a local server, but they then break on the live server, I highly doubt you'll be held at fault.
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by duncathan » #116913

Here, I guess I'm being unclear. The major bugs with that PR were caused by minor logic errors causing issues that could only be discovered (not reproduced) on the live server. Those aren't what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about really minor things that caused immediately noticeable bugs. You couldn't interact with freezers or cryo tubes at all. I didn't test those. That would be grounds for blacklisting under malkevin's system.
The thing is, the very next day I PR'd the 5 line fix to each of those. Freezers and heaters didn't have an attack_hand proc; I'd mistakenly pasted attack_paw in there. Cryo tubes? I made a typo. I'd left out the "o" in cryo, on one line. Would I still get blacklisted? After all, completely broke cryo as a result of me failing to test it. Sure, the fix was easy and got speedmerged, but I still broke malkevin's rule.
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Malkevin

Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Malkevin » #116917

Blacklist was too strong of a term, I really mean a strong bollocking for the most part, and obviously I don't mean it for things where shit just happens and no one would've guessed.
And I don't mean for one offs, especially when changing old spaghetti code like atmos code, I mean for repeated behaviour.

And I largely mean it for when you've changed something and you haven't checked your changes on a local server.
I didn't want to name drop, but for an example Razharas late last year changed bomb code to be recursive, unintentionally causing bombs to make people naked - something which should've come up by launching a local server and blowing a few bombs up next to him. (which for some reason has been added back despite the general consensus being that nobody liked it when it was first accidently added)


Really, you guys are getting bent out of shape over an extremely rough draft of something that was only a tertiary point on my ballot, and something which I'd already said I'd never get around to doing because I'd need the compliance of the other heads and host and I'd be too busy getting the rules changed and pruning the admin tree anyway.
And honestly? Its really annoying that you guys have decided to make this all about you.
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by iamgoofball » #116918

Malkevin wrote: I didn't want to name drop, but for an example Razharas late last year changed bomb code to be recursive, unintentionally causing bombs to make people naked - something which should've come up by launching a local server and blowing a few bombs up next to him. (which for some reason has been added back despite the general consensus being that nobody liked it when it was first accidently added)
That wasn't Razharas, that was Ikarrus's bomb vs clothing changes. And it was fully intentional.
Malkevin

Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Malkevin » #116927

Wasn't in November last year

I remember raz saying it wasn't intended
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Shadowlight213 » #116931

Alright. so policy stuff questions.
You're going to have to operate alongside 2 other headmins, who may not agree with some of your changes, how would you handle it in that case, where others don't agree with your policy ideas?

You mention requiring admins to fill out case files of notes, and more importantly, you say they should be banned based on if they are a poor quality of player. I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, but to me it sounds like you are saying that players should basically be banned if admins don't like them, regardless of what rules they broke?

How would you deal with the current level of powergaming, that people have, where a chaplain wanting to have a religion based around darkness and breaking a few lights, caused sec to go on a manhunt in maint for shadowlings for about 20 minutes?
Malkevin

Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Malkevin » #116937

palpatine213 wrote:Alright. so policy stuff questions.
You're going to have to operate alongside 2 other headmins, who may not agree with some of your changes, how would you handle it in that case, where others don't agree with your policy ideas?
Make my side, try to gives the Fors and Againsts to a thing... and when that doesn't work I'll yell loudly then go cry in a corner as I do now

You mention requiring admins to fill out case files of notes, and more importantly, you say they should be banned based on if they are a poor quality of player. I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, but to me it sounds like you are saying that players should basically be banned if admins don't like them, regardless of what rules they broke?
Despite the rules page being NINE pages long, there's still a lot of shitty people that never get banned because they don't break one of the rules or they're toeing the line. And then on the flip side you have generally good players that do something that over steps the mark slightly and they get banned. Or someone knows the rules well and know what they can and can't do and so generally plays with in those limits... but then an admin comes along with a slightly different interpretation of the rules with a different idea of the limits and so bans that person - generally gets overturned in appeal but its still annoying for that player.

Overall I don't think many game bans should have to be handed out.
If player A kills player B the only question that should be asked is "Did Player B antagonise Player A in someway?"
The only straight up bans should be given out is if someone straight up randomly murdered someone for no reason at all.

What I'd prefer to see is admins keeping detailed (what type of round it is, the general situation of the station, and what lead up to the confrontation, what they did with the corpse) notes of a situation, so that if someone is constantly killing people over petty stupid shit we can tell them to cut shit out and eventually go "This player is a cunt, lets get rid of them".
And when it gets to the point I don't want to see an individual admin going "Yeah... I don't like this person" and banning them themselves, I want to see them bring the case of that player forward - like a ban request, and then the admin team can come to a consensus about that person.

I know that might seem like a lot of red tape but do remember I'm hoping to make 90% of things IC issues anyway.
One of the largest things I see with the game currently is that certain players know what they can get away with: theft, break ins, slipping people/hallways, which are classed as 'IC issues' but the victims of these things are too afraid of admins banning them for doing the only thing they themselves can do, kill the annoying twat.
So good players get burnt out whilst the trolls continue being annoying within the limits, meaning we lose the good players but keep the scum.


How would you deal with the current level of powergaming, that people have, where a chaplain wanting to have a religion based around darkness and breaking a few lights, caused sec to go on a manhunt in maint for shadowlings for about 20 minutes?
"Act like an antag, get treat like an antag"

Its a sandbox game where the setting is a place where everyone lives in constant fear and paranoia that they coworker might decide to :toysword: them today, if you're going out of your way to intentionally trigger that paranoia then thems the breaks kiddo - you got what you asked for.
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Wyzack » #116945

Antag sec y/n
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Malkevin

Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Malkevin » #116963

N
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Shadowlight213 » #116966

True the act like an antag get treated like an antag does make sense, but sadly I don't see any interesting traitor gimmicks anymore. People arent willing to take risks to do interesting things, because they know the crew wont give them the leeway to allow them to attempt it.

The extensive notes thing does seem like a ton of red tape. Admins aren't clairvoyant. we can only piece together so much info from logs and such. Requiring them to be able to gather every single detail which could have affected the situation, (Things where people say that x was coming at me with a weapon but didn't actually attack me before I shot them are a nightmare, as it's impossible to verify one way or the other), is going to end up with a lot of stuff being ignored or unresolved.
Malkevin

Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Malkevin » #117232

Actually scrub this, this was a terrible idea. I've just started getting my life back on track and I want to go and get myself obsessed with spessmens again? - No Malkevin, you're a crazy bastard!


I'd like to say I endorse someone but the other candidates are either shit, ran as a joke, or too new to have any clear defined view on policy.
I guess you could take a risk with lollerderby or something, meh.
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Re: Should I run for headmin?

Post by Ikarrus » #117243

I'd like to say I endorse someone but the other candidates are either shit, ran as a joke, or too new to have any clear defined view on policy.
Hey, it won't be too different from other election cycles.

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