/tg/Station 13

This is an issue that I've noticed on Manuel that I think is worth discussing. While, the /tg/station setting is fairly malleable, the following facts are more or less set in stone.

1. Nanotrasen is an incompetent megacorporation that has little regard for employee welfare.
2. Aliens are targets of racism by a human majority, are treated like second-class citizens, and are forbidden from entering positions of power.
3. The station is a "nonsensical, metal death trap masquerading as a space station", where paranoia is the norm.

However, this isn't what I see on Manuel. Captains and HoPs regularly promote xenos to officer positions without a second thought. Racism towards xenos is treated as a shocking exception, rather than an unpleasant norm. The lore and game mechanics imply segregation and widespread xenophobia, but one is more likely to get beat up for calling a mothperson a bug than for speaking lizard in the presence of humans.

I get that being mean isn't fun for most people. But part of roleplaying is having flaws and dealing with flawed people. The Lifeweb wiki has the right idea when it talks about roleplaying a powerful Baron: As someone who prefers playing an underdog, I could rewrite like so. Either the setting be rewritten to be a harmonious pluralistic utopia (in which case humans automatically become the only race with no special advantages), or we should actually start roleplaying characters in a xenophobic world instead of huggable chat-room avatars. Discuss.

nah, I like the current freedom to choose the values and personality of my characters on my own

Besides that, just because nanotrasen has systemic racism in it, doesn't mean all the people who get sent into the stations should be racist. It makes sense for a Captain or Head of Personnel to treat different people nicely, or at least pretend to. I could see why Nanotrasen would choose someone who doesn't appear to be a huge bigot to lead a station that has quite a big non-human crew, just to avoid unnecessary conflict. It makes even more sense in Manuel where almost half of its population is non-human. It would be really hard to get away with being blatantly racist. The crew would eat them alive.





Also, I rarely see non-humans getting promoted to command roles. In fact, I don't recall ever seeing that happen on Manuel (but tbh I haven't played much as of late).

and manuel isn't HRP, it's MRP with a little bit of ERP

remember when smells-the-feet was forced to change his name? now we live in a society where licks-the-feet is actually allowed to lick feet

dw I’ll spice things up in a couple days : )

Space Panda wrote:nah, I like the current freedom to choose the values and personality of my characters on my own

You still have your freedom. But by being a super-nice tolerant character all the time, it makes things less fun for those of us that actually want an interesting world to play in. Wouldn't you rather foster interesting player conflict and improve other peoples' experience?

Space Panda wrote:Besides that, just because nanotrasen has systemic racism in it, doesn't mean all the people who get sent into the stations should be racist. It makes sense for a Captain or Head of Personnel to treat different people nicely, or at least pretend to. I could see why Nanotrasen would choose someone who doesn't appear to be a huge bigot to lead a station that has quite a big non-human crew, just to avoid unnecessary conflict.

1. Nanotrasen is incompetent. They don't care if racism impacts station efficiency, hence their xenophobic hiring policies.
2. There are levels of racism that lie between the Belgian Congo and tolerant metropolitanism.

Space Panda wrote:It makes even more sense in Manuel where almost half of its population is non-human. It would be really hard to get away with being blatantly racist. The crew would eat them alive.

3. A minority is perfectly capable of oppressing a majority if the proper structures are in place. That happens to be the case in-setting.

Farquaar wrote:

People are simply too nice.

This is an issue that I've noticed on Manuel that I think is worth discussing. While, the /tg/station setting is fairly malleable, the following facts are more or less set in stone.

1. Nanotrasen is an incompetent megacorporation that has little regard for employee welfare.
2. Aliens are targets of racism by a human majority, are treated like second-class citizens, and are forbidden from entering positions of power.
3. The station is a "nonsensical, metal death trap masquerading as a space station", where paranoia is the norm.

None of this in the common core lore

The metal death trap thing is from a fucking goons meme video someone made

This thread sucks.

The nonsensical metal deathtrap description has been on the homepage for at least 8 years. I don't think it describes the game well anymore though.

This thread seems dumb and pointless. Unless the admins are actually mentally ill, I don't think bigotry against aliens has been affected by rule 11. Players should have the freedom to choose the beliefs of the characters they play.

Screw Manuel, we don’t need those Xenos loving losers anyways

oranges wrote:None of this in the common core lore

Care to elaborate?

Vekter wrote:The metal death trap thing is from a fucking goons meme video someone made

This thread sucks.

Thank you for your riveting contribution to the discussion.

cacogen wrote:This thread seems dumb and pointless. Unless the admins are actually mentally ill, I don't think bigotry against aliens has been affected by rule 11. Players should have the freedom to choose the beliefs of the characters they play.

This thread has nothing to do with rule 11. Rule 11 pertains to real world bigotry, not sci-fi xenophobia.

Space Panda wrote:and manuel isn't HRP, it's MRP with a little bit of ERP

It has absolutely nothing to do with HRP vs MRP, it's just a fundamental aspect of RP. If you are good at RPing, your character will do things that you as a person in real life might disagree with, because they are not you, they are a role that you are playing.

The clickbait subject of the thread being "racist prickery" is unfortunate, because this notion has very little to do with issues regarding race 99% of the time. It's just a general rule for an immersive experience. "My character is an evil insane psychopath that can kill people" is shit RP, and in that same way, "My character is a saintly do-gooder who feeds the poor on his one day off every year" is also shit RP. People are nuanced.

Farquaar wrote:

Vekter wrote:The metal death trap thing is from a fucking goons meme video someone made

This thread sucks.

Thank you for your riveting contribution to the discussion.

Alright fine, smartass, I'll put in effort.

The only thing I can even remotely remember actually having to do with Nanotrasen being xenophobic is that they don't let alien crewmembers be heads because they don't trust them and they haven't done anything to modify Asimov to cover all crew members by default. That's it. The game has fuck-all for default lore other than that Nanotrasen is an all-powerful company that doesn't seem to give much of a fuck about the crews they hire because late-stage capitalism.

1. Nanotrasen is an incompetent megacorporation that has little regard for employee welfare.

This is a fair extrapolation but doesn't really relate to your claims regarding racism being a common thing in space.

2. Aliens are targets of racism by a human majority, are treated like second-class citizens, and are forbidden from entering positions of power.

This is a reach based on the fact that NT won't let aliens be heads.

3. The station is a "nonsensical, metal death trap masquerading as a space station", where paranoia is the norm.

This is the closest thing to actual canonical lore you say and it's not even actually something that applies to the station on a grand scale.

However, this isn't what I see on Manuel. Captains and HoPs regularly promote xenos to officer positions without a second thought. Racism towards xenos is treated as a shocking exception, rather than an unpleasant norm. The lore and game mechanics imply segregation and widespread xenophobia, but one is more likely to get beat up for calling a mothperson a bug than for speaking lizard in the presence of humans.

Big fucking surprise, people like being nice when they're not on a server where the norm is to gun someone down for looking at you funny.

This thread sucks because your opinion is poorly informed and you're getting "what you and a few people believe" conflated with "the common zeitgeist on one specific server".

To be fair, I do miss racism a bit in Manuel, in a roleplaying kinda sense. I can't and won't force others to do it, and Holden (the character I play) himself is more of a middling tolerance type, but I do think a different treatment of xenos could live it up roleplaying wise at times as long as it wasn't a default LIGGER LIGGER LIGGER. One of my favorite interactions in Manuel was having a moth that was bullied by other players in bar come into Sec to get a firing lesson from my Det and gifting them a Disabler, because it "isn't safe out there". It could be nice.

I feel, however, this is less a consequence of RACISM BAD SJWS IN MY /TG/STATION NOW and moreso that a lot of players who gravitate towards xeno races also end up gravitating towards roleplay (likely due to all the other heavily RP oriented servers that cater to these players), and thus Manuel has a lot of them. It's not something you can really change other than how yourself play.

Only you can make your differential treatment of xenos interesting.

(I do agree players in Manuel IN GENERAL tend to be a little too nice. Inject more personality into your characters, people, and sometimes personality can mean being a little difficult. Learn from CM here, of all places. A lot of community favorites are people who are a little abrasive in creative ways.)

Sheodir wrote:To be fair, I do miss racism a bit in Manuel, in a roleplaying kinda sense. I can't and won't force others to do it, and Holden (the character I play) himself is more of a middling tolerance type, but I do think a different treatment of xenos could live it up roleplaying wise at times as long as it wasn't a default LIGGER LIGGER LIGGER. One of my favorite interactions in Manuel was having a moth that was bullied by other players in bar come into Sec to get a firing lesson from my Det and gifting them a Disabler, because it "isn't safe out there". It could be nice.

I feel, however, this is less a consequence of RACISM BAD SJWS IN MY /TG/STATION NOW and moreso that a lot of players who gravitate towards xeno races also end up gravitating towards roleplay (likely due to all the other heavily RP oriented servers that cater to these players), and thus Manuel has a lot of them. It's not something you can really change other than how yourself play.

Only you can make your differential treatment of xenos interesting.

this

It seems like the players who would like to do more RP where they discriminate against non-humans may have difficulty applying a gimmick that has the right subtlety and pressure to be engaging without going over a line.

RaveRadbury wrote:It seems like the players who would like to do more RP where they discriminate against non-humans may have difficulty applying a gimmick that has the right subtlety and pressure to be engaging without going over a line.

Pretty chaotic generalization (though I do agree that most of the people here are not great at roleplaying just in general)

Vekter wrote:

2. Aliens are targets of racism by a human majority, are treated like second-class citizens, and are forbidden from entering positions of power.

This is a reach based on the fact that NT won't let aliens be heads.

If a governmental or corporate entity explicitly refuses to allow anyone but a specific group to hold positions of power and authority what exactly would you call that?
IRL institutions are routinely called racist for far less than that.

RaveRadbury wrote:It seems like the players who would like to do more RP where they discriminate against non-humans may have difficulty applying a gimmick that has the right subtlety and pressure to be engaging without going over a line.

Yeah the issue is most people are as subtle as a brick and just start screaming out "KILL ALL LIZARDS"

One of my favorite moments was being a trader sent by NT. While getting prepared to go to the station, I was asked if I wanted a drink. I ordered lizard wine.
The result of such an order was everyone staring uncomfortably at me. Because the person taking the order was a lizard. And the CentCom official handling trading was a lizard. And one of my fellow traders was a lizard.

You don't need to include a gas chamber in every form of discrimination.

Also ligger is still racist towards black people

don't be cringe

Super Aggro Crag wrote:don't be cringe

those who live in glass houses should not throw stones

those who live in glass houses put the bathroom in the basement

NoxVS wrote:

RaveRadbury wrote:It seems like the players who would like to do more RP where they discriminate against non-humans may have difficulty applying a gimmick that has the right subtlety and pressure to be engaging without going over a line.

Yeah the issue is most people are as subtle as a brick and just start screaming out "KILL ALL LIZARDS"

One of my favorite moments was being a trader sent by NT. While getting prepared to go to the station, I was asked if I wanted a drink. I ordered lizard wine.
The result of such an order was everyone staring uncomfortably at me. Because the person taking the order was a lizard. And the CentCom official handling trading was a lizard. And one of my fellow traders was a lizard.

You don't need to include a gas chamber in every form of discrimination.

I like this thread of discussion here. Like PK and Sheodir were getting at, there's more to creative and engaging MRP gameplay than just hugging your coworkers at the bar. At the same time, racism has to be played creatively, or it'll get stale fast. There's a lot of wiggle room here, so long as people make an attempt.

I also like what PK brought up character flaws. Playing Turdy McSociopath is lame, but so is Theresa Friendsmile. Character flaws might cost you advantages, even friends, but they're an important component of the fun in a role-playing game. Not just for you, but for the people you interact with.

Farquaar wrote:Not just for you, but for the people you interact with.

If you roleplay as an asshole then people are more likely to see you as an asshole unless you're genuinely a nice person OOC. Most people do not have the appearance of a genuinely nice person OOC in this community. Not even me. If you even use the forums regularly then you DEFINITELY aren't seen as a genuinely nice person OOC.

It could also result in problems potentially, mainly grudges and if you ever have any aspirations of being an admin. The only exception is if you do the really jokey racism that is so non-serious that only the most tone-deaf or argumentative of people will not recognize it as a joke (EX: "You'll never get me alive, felinid nuclear operative! QUICK, DISTRACT HIM WITH THE LASER POINTER!")

Ayy Lemoh wrote:

Farquaar wrote:Not just for you, but for the people you interact with.

If you roleplay as an asshole then people are more likely to see you as an asshole unless you're genuinely a nice person OOC. Most people do not have the appearance of a genuinely nice person OOC in this community. Not even me. If you even use the forums regularly then you DEFINITELY aren't seen as a genuinely nice person OOC.

You raise an interesting point. I don't think that it's very controversial to say that server culture has drifted away from its thick-skinned, abrasive roots to a more 'friendly' atmosphere. Mostly just on Manuel, from my experience- Sybil and Bagil are still pretty rough around the edges (In a good way, though). I'd like to think that people who play on an MRP server can separate themselves from their character enough to understand that doing mean things in character doesn't make you a mean person OOC.

Still, I believe that responsibility lies with both admins and regulars to avoid reinforcing the idea that IC behaviour is indicative of OOC personality. Manuel has so much potential to be an exciting conduit for chaotic multiplayer storytelling, where crazy characters bicker, struggle, triumph, and fail. Let's not throw it in the bin by making it a happy chat-room where things explode sometimes.

Farquaar wrote:Still, I believe that responsibility lies with both admins and regulars to avoid reinforcing the idea that IC behaviour is indicative of OOC personality.

It's one of those weird things where people who behave like assholes IC are not always assholes OOC, but people who are assholes OOC frequently behave like assholes IC.

So, hear me out: There's still players joining the game with names like "Tyrone Chikkunz" and the like; maybe stuff like this is the reason the rule is there? Because there's players perpetuating real-world racism against other players, not against their in-game race or identity but because of their real-world race or identity? Maybe it's because we have a ton of players who are, shockingly enough, actually racist against other players and want to exact this racism on them online, possibly because there's very little, if any actual consequences for this behavior? It's possible to be an utterly detestable, hostile, shitty person in-game without reaching for the N-word or racist stereotypes. It's actually really easy! Give it a shot.

IcePacks wrote:So, hear me out: There's still players joining the game with names like "Tyrone Chikkunz" and the like; maybe stuff like this is the reason the rule is there? Because there's players perpetuating real-world racism against other players, not against their in-game race or identity but because of their real-world race or identity? Maybe it's because we have a ton of players who are, shockingly enough, actually racist against other players and want to exact this racism on them online, possibly because there's very little, if any actual consequences for this behavior? It's possible to be an utterly detestable, hostile, shitty person in-game without reaching for the N-word or racist stereotypes. It's actually really easy! Give it a shot.

but how will I live out my escapist fantasy of being able to yell the n-word without being ejected from denny's again

Imagine throwing a fit because you can't shout slurs in spaceman game

IcePacks wrote:So, hear me out: There's still players joining the game with names like "Tyrone Chikkunz" and the like; maybe stuff like this is the reason the rule is there? Because there's players perpetuating real-world racism against other players, not against their in-game race or identity but because of their real-world race or identity? Maybe it's because we have a ton of players who are, shockingly enough, actually racist against other players and want to exact this racism on them online, possibly because there's very little, if any actual consequences for this behavior? It's possible to be an utterly detestable, hostile, shitty person in-game without reaching for the N-word or racist stereotypes. It's actually really easy! Give it a shot.

Screemonster wrote:but how will I live out my escapist fantasy of being able to yell the n-word without being ejected from denny's again
Top

Calibraptor wrote:Imagine throwing a fit because you can't shout slurs in spaceman game

Did you even bother reading the OP, let alone the thread? I refuse to believe that the three of you have such a profound deficit of reading comprehension that you would come to the conclusion that this is a Rule 11 thread.

EDIT: Their words are now immortalized as quotes, for cacogen

You can't just erase a man's words

yikes!

Farquaar wrote:

IcePacks wrote:

Screemonster wrote:

Calibraptor wrote:

Did you even bother reading the OP, let alone the thread? I refuse to believe that the three of you have such a profound deficit of reading comprehension that you would come to the conclusion that this is a Rule 11 thread.

Yeah, I said that there were ways to be a huge dickhead without being racist. What's the issue?

IcePacks wrote:Yeah, I said that there were ways to be a huge dickhead without being racist. What's the issue?

IcePacks wrote:So, hear me out: There's still players joining the game with names like "Tyrone Chikkunz" and the like; maybe stuff like this is the reason the rule is there? Because there's players perpetuating real-world racism against other players, not against their in-game race or identity but because of their real-world race or identity? Maybe it's because we have a ton of players who are, shockingly enough, actually racist against other players and want to exact this racism on them online, possibly because there's very little, if any actual consequences for this behavior? It's possible to be an utterly detestable, hostile, shitty person in-game without reaching for the N-word or racist stereotypes. It's actually really easy! Give it a shot.

Your whole spiel was about rule 11. This is not a thread about rule 11. This thread has nothing to do with rule 11 or real world racism. This is a thread about roleplaying anti-alien sentiment on a roleplay server in a video game that takes place on a space station run by a xenophobic megacorporation.

Oh. Have you tried plasmaman? People skullfuck plasmamen. You'll see a whole world of xenophobia playing a plasmaman. You'll be the whole crew's scarlet pimpernel in no time.

i play a racist HoP and used my authority to demote a bartender for trivial things because he was a moth
you're not a good racist unless you're using your authority to legally dismantle minority owned businesses

I had a borg straight-up try to murder me for gibbing a clown-esque the One Reborn, citing human harm.

I’m just tired of seeing statics appear as centcomm officials (especially when nonhuman). It’s snowflakey and lame, and I thought it was the entire point of having a back up human name. Is something not working in the code?

I don't understand why aliens can't be heads or protected by the AI. The roles attract cliqueish snowflakes but I doubt that was the reason and I don't see how allowing it would change anything.

cacogen wrote:I don't understand why aliens can't be heads or protected by the AI. The roles attract cliqueish snowflakes but I doubt that was the reason and I don't see how allowing it would change anything.

because they are second-class citizens

cacogen wrote:I don't understand why aliens can't be heads or protected by the AI. The roles attract cliqueish snowflakes but I doubt that was the reason and I don't see how allowing it would change anything.

its funny and encourages the station to stay mostly human

wesoda25 wrote:I’m just tired of seeing statics appear as centcomm officials (especially when nonhuman). It’s snowflakey and lame, and I thought it was the entire point of having a back up human name. Is something not working in the code?

there is no code that's meant to stop this. the way everyone does it is just doing select equipment > centcom official. in order to do what you want, you'd need to debug spawn a human, drag yourself into it, then select equipment. not really that different, it's just more effort to really no gain.

also, backup human names aren't used for anything other than when you get assigned as head, as far as i know. i've had mine setup as Christopher Hamburger for as long as i can remember and i've never seen it once.

Jaredfogle wrote:

wesoda25 wrote:I’m just tired of seeing statics appear as centcomm officials (especially when nonhuman). It’s snowflakey and lame, and I thought it was the entire point of having a back up human name. Is something not working in the code?

there is no code that's meant to stop this. the way everyone does it is just doing select equipment > centcom official. in order to do what you want, you'd need to debug spawn a human, drag yourself into it, then select equipment. not really that different, it's just more effort to really no gain.

also, backup human names aren't used for anything other than when you get assigned as head, as far as i know. i've had mine setup as Christopher Hamburger for as long as i can remember and i've never seen it once.

It would be cool if it did use backup human name, though

i traded a bad traitor round ruined by some dongus doing silly shit for a round where i was given plasmaman captain shit and an announcement telling the crew to kill me for it and it was immensely worth it

I always thought it was kind of annoying you had to be human to be a head of staff for the simple reason it shafted you out of being able to be a bit creative with your species choice if you didn't want to be locked out of certain roles.

I've never seen someone discriminate against non-humans in an interesting way (except the AI but that is entirely to do with the rules-lawyering aspect of the role as opposed to anything else). It's always "KILL ALL LIZARDS" or nobody tells them apart from humans with nothing inbetween. I suspect because it's effort that nobody cares enough to put in?

The AI matter I've always assumed was just a meme scifi reference that whoever wrote the laws didn't want to even remotely deviate from (even though it means there's an entire section of silicon policy just there to 'fix' all of Asimov's problems).

I think racism happens plenty but there's big differences in how it can be expressed rpwise. It's very common for species to complain about each other to a member of the same species, but being blatantly racist to someone's face causes alot more drama, and probably escalates to violence.

Simple things like overcharging, or over scrutinizing a particular species is common, it's just not blatant

I love racism, even if imaginary.

That being said, players most deserving of a tabling, vitriolic remark and a ride down disposals generally play humans as the optimal species.

I believe the primary cause of species blindness is that there is no real reason to ever be paranoid about a species. Cult or rev draw the line between the good and bad guys, but it's always orthogonal to species.

The only element that gives any reason to be antagonistic towards other races are ashliggers and even then, there's hardly any solidarity between station and lavaland lizards.

An event or gamemode like nonhuman supremacy (I'm thinking a twist on revs) would probably push the game towards more inter-species conflict - by giving snowflake races a reason to speak in their species language (discretion) and other players the possibility to suspect a racial species supremacy event is going on.

I don't think this game mode should ever be available for humans, because humans already are established as both in-lore and de facto dominant species, and because it doesn't take a genius to figure out what glyph players would choose to signify their allegiance to the human race.

Intercept0r wrote:I love racism, even if imaginary.

That being said, players most deserving of a tabling, vitriolic remark and a ride down disposals generally play humans as the optimal species.

I believe the primary cause of species blindness is that there is no real reason to ever be paranoid about a species. Cult or rev draw the line between the good and bad guys, but it's always orthogonal to species.

The only element that gives any reason to be antagonistic towards other races are ashliggers and even then, there's hardly any solidarity between station and lavaland lizards.

An event or gamemode like nonhuman supremacy (I'm thinking a twist on revs) would probably push the game towards more inter-species conflict - by giving snowflake races a reason to speak in their species language (discretion) and other players the possibility to suspect a racial species supremacy event is going on.

I don't think this game mode should ever be available for humans, because humans already are established as both in-lore and de facto dominant species, and because it doesn't take a genius to figure out what glyph players would choose to signify their allegiance to the human race.

The problem with this idea is that the first time a lizard does something remotely greytidey there's always gonna be that guy that's like "GAS THE LIZARDS IT'S RACE WAR" and use the existence of that gamemode to justify why they decided every lizard was valid

Intercept0r wrote:I love racism, even if imaginary.

even if?

Intercept0r wrote:An event or gamemode like nonhuman supremacy (I'm thinking a twist on revs) would probably push the game towards more inter-species conflict - by giving snowflake races a reason to speak in their species language (discretion) and other players the possibility to suspect a racial species supremacy event is going on.

There's plenty of potential for creative conflict in the game without actively pushing players because they aren't acting racist enough.