Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

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Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Kor » Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:36 am

The current ones seem pretty worthless. Every admin and player thinks it means something else, to the point where someone admins ban you for critting people while other admins will let sec hack off all of a guys limbs for theft.

What does "escalation" mean to you? How do we put it into words better?
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Archie700 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:11 am

It's very hard to write rules for escalations because of the nature of interpretation.

If you really want everyone to follow the same rules, the rules essentially have to be very detailed and precise.

That said, cutting off limbs for minor theft and murdering a person and gibbing/hiding the body for breaking into your office without aggravation is bad escalation.

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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:29 am

Archie700 wrote:It's very hard to write rules for escalations because of the nature of interpretation.

If you really want everyone to follow the same rules, the rules essentially have to be very detailed and precise.

That said, cutting off limbs for minor theft and murdering a person and gibbing/hiding the body for breaking into your office without aggravation is bad escalation.

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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Alipheese » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:15 am

Reminds me of what Rin used to do just before she was perma banned Sloan...
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Davidchan » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:14 am

The problem with escalations rules is that the act like an antag rule is a huge back door and generally the excuse anyone will use when asked why they jumped to lethal force against another player without antag status.The stronger a person's valid hunt the quicker they are to jump to lethal solutions.

"Why did you kill that chaplain?" "He had a flash" "Why did you space that assistant" "He was smashing lights and hiding in maintenance" "Why did you kill the bartender?" "He pulled an esword and attacked me, I didn't realize it was a toy till he croaked."

Fixing the escalation rules alone is going to put a small patch on a rather big loophole, and while I don't personally want to see the act like an antag rule go away, it definitely needs some more clear explaining no what is and is not antag behavior; using lethal force vs using actual antag items and such, the HoS decapping a clown for throwing a spear definitely comes to mind and that was their entire excuse.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby oranges » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:19 am

I have some suggestions

1) start shit get hit
2)#CHATSHITGETBANGED
3) walk the talk

What do you think?
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Alipheese » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:23 am

oranges wrote:I have some suggestions

1) start shit get hit
2)#CHATSHITGETBANGED
3) walk the talk

What do you think?

I'm okay with this
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby pubby » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:43 am

I don't think it's possible to have well-defined escalation rules without bringing back some form of space law.

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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Kor » Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:42 pm

oranges wrote:I have some suggestions

1) start shit get hit
2)#CHATSHITGETBANGED
3) walk the talk

What do you think?


I might actually put this as the rule since it's pretty close to how I do it anyway, and "was the guy who died being an annoying asshole" seems like a better rule than "did you check all these imaginary boxes and give the griffer his required ten chances?"
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby John_Oxford » Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:24 pm

i was going to come in and drop 40 paragraphs on escalation
then kor basically summed up what i was going to say.

good job kor.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby ExcessiveCobblestone » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:54 pm

John_Oxford wrote:i was going to come in and drop 40 paragraphs on escalation
then kor basically summed up what i was going to say.

good job kor.


do you write long texts because you can't articulate yourself well or because you just like to write?

Kor wrote:
oranges wrote:I have some suggestions

1) start shit get hit
2)#CHATSHITGETBANGED
3) walk the talk

What do you think?


I might actually put this as the rule since it's pretty close to how I do it anyway, and "was the guy who died being an annoying asshole" seems like a better rule than "did you check all these imaginary boxes and give the griffer his required ten chances?"


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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Wyzack » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:04 pm

Here is my idea for it

1. Use common sense with escalation, just because you might be able to get away with killing someone doesn't mean you should do it
2. Don't be a cunt. This is enforced at admin discretion because making a concrete set of rules for fifty shades of grey area is not possible

So basically what we already have, except more honest
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby D&B » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:24 pm

Write in huge red text rule 10 at server log on.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby CPTANT » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:10 pm

Wyzack wrote:Here is my idea for it

1. Use common sense with escalation, just because you might be able to get away with killing someone doesn't mean you should do it
2. Don't be a cunt. This is enforced at admin discretion because making a concrete set of rules for fifty shades of grey area is not possible

So basically what we already have, except more honest


No this is horrible, be prepared for years of whining over what common sense is.

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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Wyzack » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:12 pm

That is why the admin discretion part is in there. There is literally NO WAY to have concrete escalation rules in a game with this many variables and this much misinformation
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:13 pm

In my opinion there are some steps necessary for "proper" escalation
Something like
0. Some guy does something you don't like
1. Verbally warn him
2a. He stops and conflict ends
2b. He continues
3. If you're in the position to do so, call sec. Disarm, maybe punch a few times, rough them up and see if they stop. If you have the means to restrain them, go for it.
3a. They back off. Conflict ends.
3b. He evades you and attempts to continue action you don't like.
3c. He fights back with lethal force.
3d. You or someone else has restrained them and handed them off to sec. Conflict over.
4a. Feel free to crit them if they don't cease the negative action. It's good form to drag them to medbay, but if they were being especially obnoxious, feel free not to. In most cases you should make some effort to revive them. If they've stolen something, loot it off of them to get it back. Note that at this point of the conflict, they're basically free to crit you as much as you are free to crit them, so if you get bopped, RIP.
4b. They fought back with lethal force? Feel free to fight to the crit. Death is more okay at this point, but it would still be nice of you to revive them if you think they get the message.
5a. They're dead. Gg
5b. They're being revived after your savage beating. You go your own way and they don't bother you again. Gg
5c. You're dead. Gg
5d. They recover and come back again.
6. They're pretty persistent. At this point, it's pretty much a fight to the death. You're free to revive them again afterwords, but you don't have to. If you get killed, oh well.
7. Somebody's dead since neither of you ever de-escalated. Gg

Works better as a flow chart. I'll maybe make one later
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Kor » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:37 pm

D&B wrote:Write in huge red text rule 10 at server log on.


I'll just make the adminhelp verb display Rule 10 to you instead of sending a message to admins.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby John_Oxford » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:29 pm

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
John_Oxford wrote:i was going to come in and drop 40 paragraphs on escalation
then kor basically summed up what i was going to say.

good job kor.

do you write long texts because you can't articulate yourself well or because you just like to write?



we may never know.

if your even remotely intelligent you'll get the point im trying to make after the first eight lines.

the rest is for the absent minded people who are going to go "but wew lads you didnt say x so you obviously mean y"

its debating 101, if you can't speak i win the argument by default.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Anonmare » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:30 pm

Time for aubergine man's handy, dandy 4 step plan.

0. This game works on imperfect information, do not assume that the other person knows what you are doing with perfect clarity.
1. Act like an antag, get treated like one.
2. Exercise reasonable doubt. A flash is not always proof of a head revolutionary nor is slipping always a murder attempt.
3. If you'd kill someone for doing what you're planning on doing, don't do it.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby captain sawrge » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:25 am

if you don't want to get killed don't give people a reason to kill you
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby ShadowDimentio » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:09 pm

PKPenguin321 wrote:In my opinion there are some steps necessary for "proper" escalation
Something like
0. Some guy does something you don't like
1. Verbally warn him
2a. He stops and conflict ends
2b. He continues
3. If you're in the position to do so, call sec. Disarm, maybe punch a few times, rough them up and see if they stop. If you have the means to restrain them, go for it.
3a. They back off. Conflict ends.
3b. He evades you and attempts to continue action you don't like.
3c. He fights back with lethal force.
3d. You or someone else has restrained them and handed them off to sec. Conflict over.
4a. Feel free to crit them if they don't cease the negative action. It's good form to drag them to medbay, but if they were being especially obnoxious, feel free not to. In most cases you should make some effort to revive them. If they've stolen something, loot it off of them to get it back. Note that at this point of the conflict, they're basically free to crit you as much as you are free to crit them, so if you get bopped, RIP.
4b. They fought back with lethal force? Feel free to fight to the crit. Death is more okay at this point, but it would still be nice of you to revive them if you think they get the message.
5a. They're dead. Gg
5b. They're being revived after your savage beating. You go your own way and they don't bother you again. Gg
5c. You're dead. Gg
5d. They recover and come back again.
6. They're pretty persistent. At this point, it's pretty much a fight to the death. You're free to revive them again afterwords, but you don't have to. If you get killed, oh well.
7. Somebody's dead since neither of you ever de-escalated. Gg

Works better as a flow chart. I'll maybe make one later


Pretty much this. I generally go verbal warning > small beating > heavy beating > crit with heal > space the body and very strictly adhere to it. Most people don't get to learn what the limit of my patience is, as most actions in the game are done with purpose. It's pretty easy to figure out if the greyshirt who just ran in behind you wants a sheet of metal for something or if he wants to murder you by observing their movements.

People who don't adhere to the flow of escalation without VERY good reasons (you don't waste time asking why the QM is looting the armory, execute him), and the [insert department here] IS A RESTRICTED AREA NO NORMIES ALLOWED faction are the worst offenders and biggest faggots.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Supermichael777 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:49 am

If you respond with lethal force to an attack you have IC consented to the fight. If you death gasp you have IC consented to dying. If you commit a crime against another person YOU are responsible for what happens as the result up to and including your own death. Don't get in fights and whine when someone better dunks you. Don't kill downed opponents unless you have good reason to think they are a traitor. Denying medical treatment to an unconscious person is the same as killing them.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Isane » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:06 pm

Supermichael777 wrote:If you death gasp you have IC consented to dying.


This should be considered more. There's a huge difference between ahelping that "so and so critted me then healed me" and "so and so killed me (because I deathgasped wink wink)".

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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:56 pm

Isane wrote:
Supermichael777 wrote:If you death gasp you have IC consented to dying.


This should be considered more. There's a huge difference between ahelping that "so and so critted me then healed me" and "so and so killed me (because I deathgasped wink wink)".

it already is. succumbing is logged and can be a big swing in handling ahelps since ahelping "he KILLED ME!!!" when he really just critted you and was dragging you to medbay is kind of dishonest.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Not-Dorsidarf » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:14 pm

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Isane wrote:
Supermichael777 wrote:If you death gasp you have IC consented to dying.


This should be considered more. There's a huge difference between ahelping that "so and so critted me then healed me" and "so and so killed me (because I deathgasped wink wink)".

it already is. succumbing is logged and can be a big swing in handling ahelps since ahelping "he KILLED ME!!!" when he really just critted you and was dragging you to medbay is kind of dishonest.


Actually it usually gets your ahelp immediately thrown out and if you're obnoxious about it the admin can consider it to be banbaiting and dunk you.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Jacough » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:40 pm

Expecting someone to clone/cryo a guy who's being a cunt is just stupid. Very rarely are they just going to drop it and get on with their lives. No, they'll just use it as an excuse to try to kill you and probably see to it you don't get cloned
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Kor » Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:25 am

I still think too much emphasis is put on "keeping people in the round" (you have to clone people who attack you!) considering

a) It shouldn't be players responsibility to spend their whole round going through a cycle of cloning and killing someone who is antagonizing them

b) there are about a thousand ways to respawn now

c) It's not even written in the rules anymore
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby oranges » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:18 pm

I don't think it should be a thing, but at the same time, removing someone permanently from teh round so that no-one else can take the time to help them is for unrobust scrubs.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:18 pm

Kor wrote:c) It's not even written in the rules anymore

This is more of an issue with the rules page itself, considering we have policies against OOC in IC (like netspeak or emoticons) but it's not explicitly in the rules page.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Pascal125 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:38 pm

Literally we have some people who swing punches to crit over the slightest provocation, over a single shove or a push or other benign thing.
And others who can barely escalate at all *cough* me *cough* for fear of being banned for fighting back after beating a guy into crit for smacking me a couple times silently and for no reason. It's really not consistent and varies depending on the admin at the time, and how little they care about investigating properly...

Some people are just assholes, and if you give them any mercy, they're going to take it and be an even bigger asshole to you, incessantly trying to annoy/kill you the entire shift.
And you can't do anything about it, because all it takes is one slip up due to frustration on your part and an ahelp for you to wind up having to both deal with him, and explaining to an admin every detail, some in particular being abrasive from the first PM before even hearing both sides. And hoping they don't decide it'd be easier to just ban you.

Oranges "Suggestions" seem good. And PKP has pretty much described what "escalation" currently is like.

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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Kor » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:46 pm

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Kor wrote:c) It's not even written in the rules anymore

This is more of an issue with the rules page itself, considering we have policies against OOC in IC (like netspeak or emoticons) but it's not explicitly in the rules page.


3. Do not say in character (IC) things in the out of character (OOC) chat channel.
Do not say OOC things in IC either.

Also last term Shaps, Leo and I told admins that if you were in the clear to kill someone you were probably in the clear to space them, but I guess nobody actually added it to the rules page after the two hour argument in #adminbus
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:33 pm

Kor wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Kor wrote:c) It's not even written in the rules anymore

This is more of an issue with the rules page itself, considering we have policies against OOC in IC (like netspeak or emoticons) but it's not explicitly in the rules page.


3. Do not say in character (IC) things in the out of character (OOC) chat channel.
Do not say OOC things in IC either.

Also last term Shaps, Leo and I told admins that if you were in the clear to kill someone you were probably in the clear to space them, but I guess nobody actually added it to the rules page after the two hour argument in #adminbus

That's unclear for the examples I stated. A lot of new players don't realize netspeak or emoticons fall under that, we have to clarify it every day to at least one player.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Supermichael777 » Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:27 pm

you are allowed to destroy the body after round 2. this includes interrupting the autocloner to kick their ass
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Grazyn » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:16 pm

Sometimes I feel like spessmen only act according to the libertarian non-aggression principle, as soon as someone escalates to non-stamina damage, voluntarily or not, gloves come off and it can only end with death. Cloning is pointless, they always come back for round 2 and if they win, they obviously aren't gonna clone you.

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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Oldman Robustin » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:46 pm

Precise rules are shit in 99% of contexts. Standards are how the world gets its shit together. I've studied this area intensely and its essentially what I do for a living.

"Don't be a dick" is a standard but its unnecessarily imprecise and overly broad. People read the rule and then go into the game and see people CONSTANTLY being dicks to each other... so either they recoil from all of that and become the straight-laced roleplayer who gets abused or they join the madness only to quickly realize after a couple warnings/bans that our expectations are far more nuanced than "dont be a dick".

The solution is to stick with standards but clarify the language and offer examples or guidelines illustrating the meaning behind certain vague words (standards by definition use vague language). For escalation policy, here are just examples of things that badly need clarification:

1) What type of grief will admins permit under almost any circumstances (aka IC issue)? This is the kind of shit admins have been too lazy about for too long. It's kind of inexcusable that after 7 years we still don't know whether disabling someone's APC for no reason constitutes a bannable offense. I guarantee you that some admins will shrug this behavior off while others will warn or ban for it.

2) Can players who initiated a conflict also be the ones to escalate the conflict when retaliated against? What sort of thresholds are considered an "escalation" of grief? If Bryce walks up and starts punching me, and I grab a fire extinguisher and start thwacking back, if he manages to push me down does that give him the right to crit me? kill me? kill me and space my body?

Kor takes the view that spacing a body is not an escalation from murder since if the murder victim gets cloned they will just come back for your life anyway. I took the view that if a crew member escalates a conflict to murder, then it seems reasonable that they should take the long-term risk of a vengeful clone hunting them down in return for the short-term benefit of getting to kill someone you don't like. Some admins view spacing/destroying a body as the ultimate form of escalation, permanently ending someone's round. Other admins see it as a natural result of murder, so if the murder is justified then so is the spacing.

We can't hope to come up with better escalation standards if we don't answer some fundamental questions about what our policy even is, and coming up with a restatement of the policy is just the first step. The admin warning/note system is a great way to deal with grey areas but when push comes to shove we absolutely need more headmin rulings that get indexed for their respective issues as precedent for future decisions. That doesn't mean that every outcome of every case needs a final resolution, but when we get enough of a certain type of issue then headmins need to step up and make a ruling that either gets added as an example to the rules or is made easily accessible elsewhere so that people know how to act when the lines start to blur.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Kor » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:41 pm

Oldman is making quality posts people should read them.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Arianya » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:34 pm

Oldman Robustin wrote:Precise rules are shit in 99% of contexts. Standards are how the world gets its shit together. I've studied this area intensely and its essentially what I do for a living.


I would disagree on principle, but I will say that standards are better with dealing with a diverse, sometimes poorly communicating group like the admins

"Don't be a dick" is a standard but its unnecessarily imprecise and overly broad. People read the rule and then go into the game and see people CONSTANTLY being dicks to each other... so either they recoil from all of that and become the straight-laced roleplayer who gets abused or they join the madness only to quickly realize after a couple warnings/bans that our expectations are far more nuanced than "dont be a dick".

The solution is to stick with standards but clarify the language and offer examples or guidelines illustrating the meaning behind certain vague words (standards by definition use vague language). For escalation policy, here are just examples of things that badly need clarification:


Guidelines and examples are always good :+1:

1) What type of grief will admins permit under almost any circumstances (aka IC issue)? This is the kind of shit admins have been too lazy about for too long. It's kind of inexcusable that after 7 years we still don't know whether disabling someone's APC for no reason constitutes a bannable offense. I guarantee you that some admins will shrug this behavior off while others will warn or ban for it.


Rather then trying to get into specific examples, which with something as salt-filled as griefing tends to lead to people toeing the line in order to be able to point at the rules when they get bwoinked for excessive grief, I think guidelines would be better here.

Possibly a good starting point would be definitions of different kind of harm? i.e. Physical harm being the worst (actual attacks on your wellbeing) with emotional harm (being a dick verbally but not physically) or property harm (stealing goods either on you or that are clearly belonging to you) This allows us to more clearly finetune whats acceptable escalation. Punching someone in the gob for excessive verbal shittery is probably okay, killing them and taking their corpse into space isn't.
2) Can players who initiated a conflict also be the ones to escalate the conflict when retaliated against? What sort of thresholds are considered an "escalation" of grief? If Bryce walks up and starts punching me, and I grab a fire extinguisher and start thwacking back, if he manages to push me down does that give him the right to crit me? kill me? kill me and space my body?


I think the key here is time. In the scenario you describe, the situation goes from 0 to 100 really fast, and most likely the initiator (Bryce) should have looked to disengage and re-evaluate.

If, in another timeline, Bryce ran away when you started bwoinking him with the fire extinguisher, and then came back with his own fire extinguisher/improvised weapon, I'd say that this is a case where "escalation by the initiator" is reasonable, where I would say your example (crit and spacing) isn't.

Kor takes the view that spacing a body is not an escalation from murder since if the murder victim gets cloned they will just come back for your life anyway. I took the view that if a crew member escalates a conflict to murder, then it seems reasonable that they should take the long-term risk of a vengeful clone hunting them down in return for the short-term benefit of getting to kill someone you don't like. Some admins view spacing/destroying a body as the ultimate form of escalation, permanently ending someone's round. Other admins see it as a natural result of murder, so if the murder is justified then so is the spacing.


Ultimately this is in part a concern for the headmins/staff to discuss among themselves, since getting everyone on the same page is key (or at least, agreeing to follow the same page). I personally think body destruction is an escalation, but can also be justified if you have particular reason to fear their cloning. A sec officer with his access to gear is more likely to seek revenge then Honkers McHonks with his inability to use guns, but its also difficult to make snap judgements as to who is/isn't a long-term threat, so its not an easy thing to standardize.

We can't hope to come up with better escalation standards if we don't answer some fundamental questions about what our policy even is, and coming up with a restatement of the policy is just the first step. The admin warning/note system is a great way to deal with grey areas but when push comes to shove we absolutely need more headmin rulings that get indexed for their respective issues as precedent for future decisions. That doesn't mean that every outcome of every case needs a final resolution, but when we get enough of a certain type of issue then headmins need to step up and make a ruling that either gets added as an example to the rules or is made easily accessible elsewhere so that people know how to act when the lines start to blur.


Agreed, and would make specific note of having a subforum/some area where headmin rulings are noted for easy reference. Things like the ruling on shuttle purchasing are buried in their respective threads with no real way to find them unless you're willing to dig through posting history of all 3 headmins to find out which one made the post on this occasion.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Oldman Robustin » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:32 pm

Toe'ing the line is a meme. It's a bad meme since the actual definition of the phrase pretty much means the opposite of what people here try to make it mean.

People who try to push the envelop on our rules get dealt with by warnings and notes. It's a super fair system as long as you have decent admins who don't write people up for perfectly acceptable actions that don't jive with the admin's playstyle preferences. If the person cannot self-regulate their behavior after a few warning then its totally normal to just flat out prohibit them from engaging in conduct that might get an "IC issue" response for other players. That's part of why I support the return of ban requests though, too often someone does something borderline shitty with no admins active and their grief goes unrecognized... when an admin is finally around to witness the grief, the person might not even have notes for that issue even though they've already done it a dozen times. Ban requests seems like a good way for borderline behavior to get tossed in someones notes so that admins can start seeing patterns of bad behavior sooner. Admins should be transparent about these notes and always tell the player, I know I did but in the past I know admins who would punish/threaten based on vague references to someone's notes.

It can be difficult drawing the line between examples and rules though. I had this issue with Colonial Marines and their shitshow administration. One of their rules was against "griefing", totally normal, but under the examples they included "Attacking a friendly player after the round has ended". One round there was some jerkoff running around the ship shooting people post-round so I shot them back, got banned for "griefing", and a condescending answer from the admin that it was "really clear from the examples" that I had griefed someone. Of course that's not how the real world works, we enforce the rules, the examples are just there to illustrate what certain vague definitions might mean. So yea, examples need to be illustrative but shouldn't be masquerading as rules (e.g. You may only disable 1 APC per round as a nonantag).

To be clear when im talking about the initiator being the escalator, I don't simply mean the escalator raising their own level of violence to what the responder is doing, I mean them kicking it ABOVE what the responder is doing. Like Bryce starts with push spam (nonharmful harassment), the victim starts punching back (minor harm), then Bryce pulls out a screwdriver and stabs out the victim's eyes. If Bryce is the one who initiates the harassment, at what point can he start escalating the fight beyond what his victim is doing to defend himself?

I think the answer is close to what we see in the real world, our standard would permit people to use "reasonable force" in self-defense. The implicit understand would be that the initial attacker cannot escalate the confrontation with the justification of "self defense" in response to legitimate self-defense by the victim. Like the real world, self defense doesn't mean revenge, if the fight ends then your ability to use violence against the person who attacked you should diminish. That also means we should probably clarify what is tolerated for revenge since we tolerate revenge much more than the real world does. When I say real world I'm not trying to make SS13 or its playstyle more "realistic", I'm just trying to align our rules with what makes sense when our expectations for in-game behavior come close to the expectations we'd have in real life, its simply the easiest way for players to understand what the rules mean.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Arianya » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:42 pm

Oldman Robustin wrote:Toe'ing the line is a meme. It's a bad meme since the actual definition of the phrase pretty much means the opposite of what people here try to make it mean.


Its still something that becomes easier if the rules are tailored in a way that allows citing examples as rules, but you mention this yourself later on so I won't go on about it.

People who try to push the envelop on our rules get dealt with by warnings and notes. It's a super fair system as long as you have decent admins who don't write people up for perfectly acceptable actions that don't jive with the admin's playstyle preferences. If the person cannot self-regulate their behavior after a few warning then its totally normal to just flat out prohibit them from engaging in conduct that might get an "IC issue" response for other players. That's part of why I support the return of ban requests though, too often someone does something borderline shitty with no admins active and their grief goes unrecognized... when an admin is finally around to witness the grief, the person might not even have notes for that issue even though they've already done it a dozen times. Ban requests seems like a good way for borderline behavior to get tossed in someones notes so that admins can start seeing patterns of bad behavior sooner. Admins should be transparent about these notes and always tell the player, I know I did but in the past I know admins who would punish/threaten based on vague references to someone's notes.


In theory, the ban request style system of advising the admins of behaviour they should know about still exists, you just PM a headmin instead. I can't say I like Ban Requests as forum threads because generally the salt and continued argument ends up turning minor incidents into major ones and embittering people against one another. People who are long term issues are ideal for having their behaviour reported in PMs and people who have single off rounnd or who upset a victim through some particular misbehaviour that isn't actually rulesbreaking don't need the attention of the headmins nor do they benefit from Ban Request style threads.

An alternative may be to have a "complaints box" style system where people can file a complaint about behaviour with the headmin team, which preserves the value of bringing headmin attention to an issue and centralizes it (so you don't have to worry about whether Okan is checking his PMs) while maintaining the barrier that seperates the players from seeing every complaint about someone.

It can be difficult drawing the line between examples and rules though. I had this issue with Colonial Marines and their shitshow administration. One of their rules was against "griefing", totally normal, but under the examples they included "Attacking a friendly player after the round has ended". One round there was some jerkoff running around the ship shooting people post-round so I shot them back, got banned for "griefing", and a condescending answer from the admin that it was "really clear from the examples" that I had griefed someone. Of course that's not how the real world works, we enforce the rules, the examples are just there to illustrate what certain vague definitions might mean. So yea, examples need to be illustrative but shouldn't be masquerading as rules (e.g. You may only disable 1 APC per round as a nonantag).


Agreed.

To be clear when im talking about the initiator being the escalator, I don't simply mean the escalator raising their own level of violence to what the responder is doing, I mean them kicking it ABOVE what the responder is doing. Like Bryce starts with push spam (nonharmful harassment), the victim starts punching back (minor harm), then Bryce pulls out a screwdriver and stabs out the victim's eyes. If Bryce is the one who initiates the harassment, at what point can he start escalating the fight beyond what his victim is doing to defend himself?

I think the answer is close to what we see in the real world, our standard would permit people to use "reasonable force" in self-defense. The implicit understand would be that the initial attacker cannot escalate the confrontation with the justification of "self defense" in response to legitimate self-defense by the victim. Like the real world, self defense doesn't mean revenge, if the fight ends then your ability to use violence against the person who attacked you should diminish. That also means we should probably clarify what is tolerated for revenge since we tolerate revenge much more than the real world does. When I say real world I'm not trying to make SS13 or its playstyle more "realistic", I'm just trying to align our rules with what makes sense when our expectations for in-game behavior come close to the expectations we'd have in real life, its simply the easiest way for players to understand what the rules mean.


My personal opinion would be that the rules should encourage breaking off engagements where possible. So, while Bryce can't escalate to stabbing your eyes out, he can escalate to punching you back, but at some point he decides "fuck this for a game of soldiers" and high-tails it. If you chase him/continue the altercation, I would then say the situation is open to further escalation by him, and if he disengages successfully, realistically the situation should step down a notch in terms of force allowed, on both parts, as "tempers cool".

Revenge is a tricky one, because what seems reasonable to one person in terms of revenge might seem batshit to others, and you end up in painful situations with stuff such as sec. If as a sec officer, I arrest you, search you, find something questionable and brig you for two minutes, what level of revenge is allowed here? If as a greytider I break in, knock you down and steal your ID, what level of revenge are you allowed when I run away?

Depending on who you asked the answers would range anywhere from "nothing" to "eye for an eye" to "kill that mofo"
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Cw3040 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:54 pm

Arianya wrote:Revenge is a tricky one, because what seems reasonable to one person in terms of revenge might seem batshit to others, and you end up in painful situations with stuff such as sec. If as a sec officer, I arrest you, search you, find something questionable and brig you for two minutes, what level of revenge is allowed here? If as a greytider I break in, knock you down and steal your ID, what level of revenge are you allowed when I run away?

Depending on who you asked the answers would range anywhere from "nothing" to "eye for an eye" to "kill that mofo"

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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Oldman Robustin » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:11 am

I really don't see an issue with bringing back ban requests but making it headmin only and removing/disabling comments by anyone who wasn't directly involved in the incident. Significant rulings would either be stickied or summarized here to help people understand how our policies evolve.

I mean what else do headmins do, I have yet to see one on Sybil or Basil since I came back (literally all trialmins on both servers, often AFK, out of 10 adhelps I've sent out I've gotten one back). We pretend that we elect Headmins for their character and policy positions but it just seems like a figurehead position to me.

Either way we can't make coherent rules if we don't have a clearer idea of what our policy is. Getting headmins to sack up and make those hard decisions is a good way to start.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby TehSteveo » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:23 am

Oldman Robustin wrote:I really don't see an issue with bringing back ban requests but making it headmin only and removing/disabling comments by anyone who wasn't directly involved in the incident. Significant rulings would either be stickied or summarized here to help people understand how our policies evolve.

I mean what else do headmins do, I have yet to see one on Sybil or Basil since I came back (literally all trialmins on both servers, often AFK, out of 10 adhelps I've sent out I've gotten one back). We pretend that we elect Headmins for their character and policy positions but it just seems like a figurehead position to me.

Either way we can't make coherent rules if we don't have a clearer idea of what our policy is. Getting headmins to sack up and make those hard decisions is a good way to start.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Oldman Robustin » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:29 pm

Tehpear I'm curious as to why you think thats an acceptable method. Sure its better than outright refusing to hear any ban request, but its almost just as bad since it leads to a really inconsistent approach to rule enforcement. With the forum you had a way for someone to present their case in an organized and standardized manner which allowed for an orderly and transparent resolution to the case. There might be a few players who are smart/savvy enough to get on IRC and directly PM headmins for an issue but I WAS an admin when the forums were closed and I never saw any communication from our headmins that we should pass along ban requests or encourage people to PM the headmins if they felt we should have banned someone. Even the rules page says "In-game admin rulings are final" and then immediately contradicts itself by saying disputes can be taken to the forums, but then the only appropriate forum is admin complaints where someone complaining about how their ban request was handled will promptly be closed, maybe if the ruling was egregious then headmins would intervene but I seriously doubt it.

IRC and PM's aren't transparent and I doubt a bunch of PM's getting tossed around will allow for a high quality resolution. IRC would only be worse since it seems unreasonable to try and drag someone onto IRC to play telephone with inevitable paraphrasing of what took place instead of a full record of the accusations, logs, statements, etc. being readily available.

Kor has acknowledged in his OP that our rules are insufficient, but we also made admin ruling final, leading to a wide divergence of "final" rulings that cannot be appealed by the IC-victims through the use of a ban request. The divergence is a self-reinforcing cycle, especially for admins who don't like to ban, because there will almost never be a "check" on their decision making. As I learned first hand there is a strong culture of deference to other admin decisions so even if someone lets another player off the hook with no note for clearly rule-breaking behavior. That was acceptable when we had ban requests as a safety net to catch bad decisions when the victim felt their admin response was insufficient, but now each admin is an island unto themselves and our policy page might as well just be a list of current admins with their own preferences for dealing with certain behavior.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Arianya » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:57 pm

As I noted previously, ban requests tends to causes non-issues to become big issues by virtue of constant discussion and reminder of what otherwise would be swept away by the tides of time.

Transparency is important (and I'm in support of it, as noted by my suggestion that all Headmin decisions be filed somewhere easily accessible), but Ban Requests is too prone to salt filled discourse to be worthwhile.

That was acceptable when we had ban requests as a safety net to catch bad decisions when the victim felt their admin response was insufficient, but now each admin is an island unto themselves and our policy page might as well just be a list of current admins with their own preferences for dealing with certain behavior.


This is why we have Admin Complaints, for oversight on specific instances in which you feel that a admin had misconduct in a case, which includes incorrectly enforcing rules. The main point is that Admin Complaints shouldn't be about "x should have got banned!!!" but rather "Admin should have a better understanding of this rule", and thats the part that trips most people up because they post in the heat of the moment feeling like they've been wronged and that someone is getting away with murder (hue).

And even if you hate Admin Complaints or you feel its unfair, you can always go to the headmins privately in PM.

If you're gonna come back with "but what if the headmins are wrong too" then you're kinda SOL buddy. If you can't trust/believe in the admins or the headmins to enforce the style of administration then thats probably the end of the road. You wouldn't go to a restaurant if you think the staff and their managers are going to mistreat you, you'll just go somewhere else.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby CPTANT » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:28 pm

So how often do you guy's feel your round is "ruined" because of someone over escalating?

Because personally it basically never happens to me for some reason.

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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:32 pm

CPTANT wrote:So how often do you guy's feel your round is "ruined" because of someone over escalating?

Because personally it basically never happens to me for some reason.

It's stopped happening to me but only because I got good and when people escalate for shitty reasons I just dunk them before they dunk me
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Armhulen » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:03 am

CPTANT wrote:So how often do you guy's feel your round is "ruined" because of someone over escalating?

Because personally it basically never happens to me for some reason.

i still remember the round a hop gave themselves all access roundstart and then convinced security to arrest me so he could become captain
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby TehSteveo » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:12 am

Oldman Robustin wrote:Tehpear I'm curious as to why you think thats an acceptable method. Sure its better than outright refusing to hear any ban request, but its almost just as bad since it leads to a really inconsistent approach to rule enforcement. With the forum you had a way for someone to present their case in an organized and standardized manner which allowed for an orderly and transparent resolution to the case. There might be a few players who are smart/savvy enough to get on IRC and directly PM headmins for an issue but I WAS an admin when the forums were closed and I never saw any communication from our headmins that we should pass along ban requests or encourage people to PM the headmins if they felt we should have banned someone. Even the rules page says "In-game admin rulings are final" and then immediately contradicts itself by saying disputes can be taken to the forums, but then the only appropriate forum is admin complaints where someone complaining about how their ban request was handled will promptly be closed, maybe if the ruling was egregious then headmins would intervene but I seriously doubt it.

IRC and PM's aren't transparent and I doubt a bunch of PM's getting tossed around will allow for a high quality resolution. IRC would only be worse since it seems unreasonable to try and drag someone onto IRC to play telephone with inevitable paraphrasing of what took place instead of a full record of the accusations, logs, statements, etc. being readily available.

Kor has acknowledged in his OP that our rules are insufficient, but we also made admin ruling final, leading to a wide divergence of "final" rulings that cannot be appealed by the IC-victims through the use of a ban request. The divergence is a self-reinforcing cycle, especially for admins who don't like to ban, because there will almost never be a "check" on their decision making. As I learned first hand there is a strong culture of deference to other admin decisions so even if someone lets another player off the hook with no note for clearly rule-breaking behavior. That was acceptable when we had ban requests as a safety net to catch bad decisions when the victim felt their admin response was insufficient, but now each admin is an island unto themselves and our policy page might as well just be a list of current admins with their own preferences for dealing with certain behavior.
I'm ill as of posting this so I may miss somethings; anwho here we go...

First, the original thread on ban request closure stated that headmins can handle more grievous violations that they feel is needed. Your point of an open forum somehow being better organized is moot considering a forum PM can be formatted just exactly like a forum post; unless you are referring to the old standardized ban request format which I can simply put somewhere again for situations that needs it. In the case of IRC, everything may not be presented in large summary but back and forth can easily occur and having the person there is much easier to divulge further details similar to back and forth through investigation during a round using AdminPMs.

Really, the only missing thing is people not involved posting in the the thread or everyone soaking in the drama from it all with people who are not involved getting involved. Since ban requests has been closed there has been much less minor issues created because player feels jaded they got beaten. Ban requests going to headmins now serves as a way to catch more grievous violation; especially during times of no admins versus disputing an admin's decision. If someone feels an admin mishandled a ruling; they can make an admin complaint or PM headmins again. The biggest thing is not trying to make the complaint look as if it's a ban request but rather that their understanding of the rule is something they feel is not correct. At that point I'd be more willing to look into the situation and handling of said situation to give a ruling on it. If I find it was excessive I'd talk with the admin involved to possible punishment if it's something really grievous. As far as banning goes due to a complaint like that; I'd probably not step in and apply a ban after the situation was dealt with likely days ago. I personally rather not step in after admin lets them go for it and then ban them later with little warning. I may try to talk to the player involved to issue a warning for such behavior or note it. I would rather not try to turn admin complaints into the new ban requests; especially the ones where a player in the heat of the moment makes it when the decision of the admin was actually sound.

As far as the rules go, they're a mess in general. I have tried to patch some holes and clarify things. Recently another issue was brought to my attention that may need fixed about confusing wording on that page. I still am not happy with the rules as it feels like they are bloating, but if we cut back we go into more less established territory that means admins just have to make the judgement calls as needed based on reasonable information during the round.

If you want to give it a go and rewrite them then do so and I'd be willing to take a look over it. I've posted a few times about better rewrites of rules and/or a written playbook for escalation. I personally don't want to try to I feel it's almost nearly impossible to cover every little detail unless we want our rules page to actually reflect more real world law where that can grow very large.
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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby ShadowDimentio » Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:57 am

PKPenguin321 wrote:
CPTANT wrote:So how often do you guy's feel your round is "ruined" because of someone over escalating?

Because personally it basically never happens to me for some reason.

It's stopped happening to me but only because I got good and when people escalate for shitty reasons I just dunk them before they dunk me


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Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Unread postby Luke Cox » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:04 am

Do shit, get hit
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