Policy action on the state of RP in the game

[Bawhoppennn]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I don't like writing these super long-winded walls of text posts, so I'll try and keep this somewhat short.

The state of the game has largely geared towards it being primarily treated as a TDM combat sim, and while that's nothing new, and isn't the case 100% of the time, I think it's time we actually made some policy to satisfy those who want a little bit of RP.

I'm not saying we should have Bay-tier RP where you try to act like a real person in that situation, but I think we should have a slightly higher standard than we do now. In my ideal view, the perfect RP-level is one where you can still be wacky and memey, and still have conflict in the game, but not act with the currently common silent drone stun-cuff-strip mentality, where you feel like you must prove your skills.

I know a lot of people have fun playing it like that, and that's fine, but I think a large amount of players want a little more than that from the game, so that's why I'd propose we enforce a little bit of standards on Basil, while leaving Sybil as it always was for people who enjoy that. That way, we'd not alienate anyone, and everyone could (in theory) be happy.

When I talked to PKP about this briefly, he said that with our current shortage of admins, this would be impractical to enforce, however I think that if we just had explicitly stated text saying what each server was oriented towards, with the rules that follow, most people would abide by the standards, and those who didn't wouldn't make much extra work than admins already have to do.

People have been talking about this kind of thing for years, and I hope that with a legitimate discussion, we could maybe finally get somewhere with it.

[imblyings]

We probably could but CM has it easier imo. Both sides are essentially opposing team antags who must work together, roleplay in a context where it makes sense to cooperate, and have a lot of rules restricting what happens so the rounds work and people do cooperate. /tg/ has multiple game modes, a lot of which involve people being on their own with no one they can trust or common goal to work towards. Losing is also something CM takes better than we do I think. Every bloody time I've played it the rounds end in the aliens inevitably wrecking the marines aboard their ship but there didn't seem to be any bad feelings about it. Part of it seems to be players investing their time in the journey rather than the results (our greentext) or specific personal projects (our autism projects).

or im all wrong who knows

[Nilons]

We probably could but CM has it easier imo. Both sides are essentially opposing team antags who must work together, roleplay in a context where it makes sense to cooperate, and have a lot of rules restricting what happens so the rounds work and people do cooperate. /tg/ has multiple game modes, a lot of which involve people being on their own with no one they can trust or common goal to work towards. Losing is also something CM takes better than we do I think. Every bloody time I've played it the rounds end in the aliens inevitably wrecking the marines aboard their ship but there didn't seem to be any bad feelings about it. Part of it seems to be players investing their time in the journey rather than the results (our greentext) or specific personal projects (our autism projects).

or im all wrong who knows

I will never understand people who only play for the greentext, the only reason I ever do my objective is because I feel like I have to make it look like Im actually playing traitor instead of just meming and having fun. The greentext is always an afterthought.

[onleavedontatme]

It's not really greentext people play for but rather red text. Making as many other people as possible lose is usually more important to people than winning.

[DemonFiren]

It's not really greentext people play for but rather red text. Making as many other people as possible lose is usually more important to people than winning.

For valid/murderboner meme man it seems to be more about proving to yourself that you can make others suffer and force them to waste their time either dealing with you or waiting for you to finish masturbating.

[Qbopper]

It's not really greentext people play for but rather red text. Making as many other people as possible lose is usually more important to people than winning.

For valid/murderboner meme man it seems to be more about proving to yourself that you can make others suffer and force them to waste their time either dealing with you or waiting for you to finish masturbating.

I think that it's different for everyone

The majority of the people we're shitting on do seem more focused on "victory by everyone else dying" than greentext, though

[confused rock]

The point of murderbone can't merely be defined as "ruin stuff for people" as if it was then everyone ever who did it wiuld be a massive douche, but obviously thats what you want to think so you feel your opinion is right
Maybe its because objectives are too easy
Maybe its because thinking of a gimmick is too hard
Maybe the idea of fighting off human players with these mechanics gives them a rush
Maybe its because they got outed and they have no other choice as becoming someone via genetics is too hard
Maybe they want the attention
Maybe they do it because nothing else is a challenge
Maybe they have literally nothing else to do as antag
Whatever the case the "I hate other people" is unlikely

[Slignerd]

Banning murderbone is a horrible idea. It eventually leads to the kind of restrictions where an antag can't feel safe placing a bomb anywhere close to a populated area, or defending themselves while everyone rushes them to kill them. Forbidding them from doing any actual damage. At least not without fear that they anger an admin and get banned.

Trust me, I played on servers like that, and I'd hate to see /tg/ become like that.

[Nilons]

Banning murderbone is a horrible idea. It eventually leads to the kind of restrictions where an antag can't feel safe placing a bomb in anything close to being a populated area, or defending themselves while everyone rushes them to kill them. Forbidding them from doing any actual damage. At least not without fear that they anger an admin and get banned.

Trust me, I played on servers like that, and I'd hate to see /tg/ become like that.

I strongly believe that the "Antags can do whatever they want" rule is one of the most important and defining rules of tgstation, and would be very sad if it was gone.

[onleavedontatme]

I strongly believe that the "Antags can do whatever they want" rule is one of the most important and defining rules of tgstation

I agree. For better or worse, our culture, rules, and development all revolve around this one rule.

You'll have to accept you aren't going to get any deep roleplay/sportsmanship/etc among strangers with this rule though. There is absolutely no sustainable social contract possible if some people are allowed to flat out ignore it.

[captain sawrge]

You'll have to accept you aren't going to get any deep roleplay/sportsmanship/etc among strangers with this rule though. There is absolutely no sustainable social contract possible if some people are allowed to flat out ignore it.

/thread

[XDTM]

As many have mentioned, we want sportmanship rather than RP.

Lack of communication, while not technically sportmanship-related, also drains a lot from the game. The most frustrating players to meet, stereotypically, are the greytider who wordlessly steals/griefs, the murderboner who silently ebows/eswords the station until shuttlecall, the security guard who arrests/executes you without explaining why either to you or the warden, or mimes in general.

Speaking for myself, i enjoy pretty much anything a lot more if the people i'm interacting with actually speak (aside from stale memes). Even a murderboner, if he takes the time to taunt the station, does stuff like spare Reed, and other little things that make him look more like a rival than an enemy.
On the other side of the field, when i'm an antag i dont mind being caught by sec as much as when they harmbaton me to death, even if i show no intention of doing harm and am being cooperative during the arrest, just because they found [meta uplink item] in my pocket. While other times i had more fun being arrested than while antagging just through banter with the officer that arrested me. Again, one is an enemy who wants to see me fail, the other is a rival where i acknowledge that he beat me, and in return left me in the game, with a chance to maybe escape.

So yeah. Your opponents are rivals who should be friendly ooc (and also maybe ic), not enemies to hate and defeat at all costs, which is the mentality that makes many rounds unfun deathmatches between validhunters and murderboners/griefers.

[cedarbridge]

Maybe they have literally nothing else to do as antag

If that were the case they wouldn't be the sort of people who roll for antag.

[Qbopper]

The point of murderbone can't merely be defined as "ruin stuff for people" as if it was then everyone ever who did it wiuld be a massive douche, but obviously thats what you want to think so you feel your opinion is right
Whatever the case the "I hate other people" is unlikely

when did anyone say this

You'll have to accept you aren't going to get any deep roleplay/sportsmanship/etc among strangers with this rule though. There is absolutely no sustainable social contract possible if some people are allowed to flat out ignore it.

/thread

tl;dr either we change the rule or nothing changes rip

[DemonFiren]

let's hope headmins won't be too pussy to change it, then

[danno]

time to make a serious assessment on just what kind of server we're trying to run here boys

[Slignerd]

let's hope headmins won't be too pussy to change it, then

You actually want restrictions on what antags are allowed to do against the crew? Really?

[DemonFiren]

let's hope headmins won't be too pussy to change it, then

You actually want restrictions on what antags are allowed to do against the crew? Really?

sligneris has basic reading comprehension
never would have guessed

[Bawhoppennn]

I strongly believe that the "Antags can do whatever they want" rule is one of the most important and defining rules of tgstation

I agree. For better or worse, our culture, rules, and development all revolve around this one rule. You'll have to accept you aren't going to get any deep roleplay/sportsmanship/etc among strangers with this rule though. There is absolutely no sustainable social contract possible if some people are allowed to flat out ignore it.

let's hope headmins won't be too pussy to change it, then

You actually want restrictions on what antags are allowed to do against the crew? Really?

Why does it necessarily have to be that as what is changed?
Can't we have a rule where it's just "Make sure you don't create any situation where it isn't also fun for the other players involved in the situation" then leave that judgement up to the online admin's discretion, and if people disagree with that ruling, they can then take it up with the headmins, or at the admin complaints, policy, ban appeals, or admin feedback subforums?

I suppose you could say having that rule would also change the antag permission rules, however I don't think it counts, since the new restriction would be placed on everyone universally (like some rules already are).

[PKPenguin321]

i forget where i said it before, but i became a regular on the forums because long ago we trialed a 'no murder without cause' policy for antagonists and it sucked so much dick i needed to go here to yell at whoever was enough of an idiot to think it was good. i dont intend to put back such a policy. i think kors post sums up my thoughts pretty well

I strongly believe that the "Antags can do whatever they want" rule is one of the most important and defining rules of tgstation

I agree. For better or worse, our culture, rules, and development all revolve around this one rule.

You'll have to accept you aren't going to get any deep roleplay/sportsmanship/etc among strangers with this rule though. There is absolutely no sustainable social contract possible if some people are allowed to flat out ignore it.

the last bit about a lack of deep roleplay is debatable (it does happen now and then if infrequently) but other than that yeah

[captain sawrge]

Can't we have a rule where it's just "Make sure you don't create any situation where it isn't also fun for the other players involved in the situation"

No, because the entire game revolves around this.

[Bawhoppennn]

Can't we have a rule where it's just "Make sure you don't create any situation where it isn't also fun for the other players involved in the situation"

No, because the entire game revolves around this.

But it doesn't at all?

[imblyings]

Like has been said here by people who know what they're talking about, rule 4 is a cornerstone aspect of /tg/ responsible for good and bad stuff. /tg/ has lived with the bad stuff and one more thread about it doesn't make anything different- the server has survived for years with the exact same threads, nothing ever changed in those threads, and /tg/ continues to draw in players. It is also responsible for some good things, like the freedom players enjoy here. It's a laissez faire sort of attitude, one that I found unique, sensible, and appreciated, over servers which restricted their players. Other servers definitely provide a fun experience but they do so at comparatively extremes compared to us. Consider CM. It's fun enough but the players are separated into two teams to encourage cooperation, there are a lot of rules to ensure not only the gameplay mechanics work but the players also play along with each other, and the entire game is based on a mishmash of charming movie stereotypes that encourage players to act in certain ways. /tg/ round types rarely have distinct and stable teams, have very little restrictions, and how a character acts is almost entirely up to the player here.

Anyway, keeping our unique identity is not a reason to avoid improvements where possible.

Enforcing rules without rule 4 will be heavily inconsistent but there will be a new game mode trialed soon (tm) to experiment and see what happens without rule 4 with specific conditions. There is also another project going on, which I think will be the main push to keep /tg/ interesting and filled with a bit more cooperation in the coming months and maybe year. If you can figure out what this is, then you probably know how it hopefully plans to incentivize cooperation and intrinsically motivate players to work together and play along to have fun, as well as provide an all new setting and unknown variables in which to create new experiences and memories in. These are the safest and most competent ways to improve ''''''''''''''rp''''''''''''''''''''''''''' and sportsmanship here without going to an extreme like other servers or losing our unique place among SS13 servers.

I don't think anymore constructive things can be said. If you do happen to catch an IA round, play along as best as you can. The general gist is here https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/26651 and will be run under IA is only actually run under these conditions, hopefully to make it more feasible.

>when an admin is available to supervise it.
>admins will rarely ban or note and instead give gentle advice, encouragement or warn players. I know things will be inconsistent and a trial like this needs positive rather than negative enforcement. Admins will also be encouraged to handle things IC. If someone chooses to murderbone the station, admins have a variety of options, not limited to changing the objectives of other IA agents to assassinate the murderboner to more traditional options like sending an ERT team to get rid of the rogue IA agent.

[Slignerd]

Can't we have a rule where it's just "Make sure you don't create any situation where it isn't also fun for the other players involved in the situation" then leave that judgement up to the online admin's discretion, and if people disagree with that ruling, they can then take it up with the headmins, or at the admin complaints, policy, ban appeals, or admin feedback subforums?

There's where you get to the point where antags can't feel safe playing in any way other than Bay-style friendly antags. Because anything hostile an antag could do to crew can be deemed "unfun". Antags should not be forced to play Admin Roulette while trying to survive.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Maybe we should make rule 1 "Be a good sport" instead of "Don't be a dick"

[FantasticFwoosh]

Being a dick & sportsmanship are quite distant from one another, its essentially a large re-write.

I do think our current rule 1 is actually a bad rule because...

1) Its easier to contest being a good sport because generally there is a straightfoward way to play, and this focuses on the positives. Being a dick is completely negative focused only, and is openly subjective about deadchat salt because nobody likes to lose. If you cede to salt or metagrudging you are not being sporting enough to take your circumstances on the chin if they are fair.

2) Admins abuse rule 1 in order to back up further decisions that might have been shaky. Being a good sport instead ties into other rules like rule (2,3,5,6,7,8,10) generally that requires co-operative attitudes between players & admins. This may mean we might have to actively wave off prior admin rulings & scrutinise them differently because if admins are being dicks, salty or biased and not sporting they are summarily rulebreaking. We need compassionate, but also fair admins that do as require.

3) Only forseeable problem with sportsmanship is that it might train players to be more tolerant of abuse because like saints they are holding their patience rather than whining & criticising all the time. It needs to be clear that feeling upset is ok but it should be IC sportsmanship not OOC/deadchat sportsmanship so they remain as subjectively critical as they need to be. (as long as attitudes from OOC/deadchat don't carry over, like people applying for ghost roles to grief & spite others)

[kevinz000]

Right, after a "conversation" with someone in deadchat (in which I was yelled at and told that RP is not for normal people and is gay/cringy, and murderboning belongs on the server and the new "playerbase" likes it that way):
If this ever happens the lowest common denominator is going to have to go, because players like those are the reason RP is not going to happen.
Edit: No one said murderboning doesn't belong on the server but they basically said that TG is meant to be no-RP and yaddayaddayadda, it's painful to listen to and it reminds me of why RP doesn't happen enough.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Its not sporting to just kill people for the sake of sport kevinz, its mindlessly shooting all the big game infront of you, even the ill & weak rather than pursuing something strong or your quarry (target)

> Killing people just because you can vs. killing person because it'd be a side challenge, the rest will probably not even rat me out because they are too scared i will dunk them outright.

Yeah the station does have a RP issue with not being shocked by antagonists either, they barely ever report things that are non-threatening to themselves to sec or even defend the station's interests. (not saying everyone should/shouldn't play a vigilante but its too passive or too aggressive sometimes)

[Slignerd]

RP is not for normal people and is gay/cringy

Not to say RP is inherently like this, but from my experience... Once SS13 RP is put in practice, that description is not entirely wrong. When it comes down to it, being nearly no-RP is really the safest way for a server to run.

[FantasticFwoosh]

We consign ourselves that in having the best equipment we can end the round because we have little tolerance towards boredom. I still think its largely falls on the responsibility of design leads/coders to gives us something to do that's slow without pressure groups forcing us to apply faster methods. For example botany, by default its a long winded job but we simply spam mutagen until we get one

We have fast no RP rounds that are ended by who can powergame/robust each other the fastest but don't rp because thats counter intuitive to winning.

As opposed to bay which has slow as heck rounds but often enough detail to string them along because they aren't worried about the round ending anytime soon, and

---

Or maybe the people who want more in depth longer rounds are the pressure groups. I guess its a line chart in which its RP vs game length, we fall short with below 1 hour average tops with also equal amount of low RP

CM has a more moderate game length (2 hours average) but still averaging on the RP because most of it is forced action combat,

Bay etc, lasts for 4 hours, has high RP. I guess someone could make a diagram in excel to showcase the point in which the servers follow the line PERFECTLY in relation to round length and RP

---

We also force random destructive events every like 10/15 minutes just to tell players to GTFO of the station by destroying our architecture with asteroids, engineers are already demotivated and prefer to leave than patch it up with a bodge job. Or when a explosion is just TOO big they give up.

[onleavedontatme]

RP is not for normal people and is gay/cringy

Not to say RP is inherently like this, but from my experience... Once SS13 RP is put in practice, that description is not entirely wrong. When it comes down to it, being nearly no-RP is really the safest way for a server to run.

What did he mean by this?

[FantasticFwoosh]

MSO pushed non-canon catgirls for no reason other than just to pull publicity is what we meant by this. I guess we get exactly what we set out to, quick round, low RP, to hell with the narrative.

[Slignerd]

RP is not for normal people and is gay/cringy

Not to say RP is inherently like this, but from my experience... Once SS13 RP is put in practice, that description is not entirely wrong. When it comes down to it, being nearly no-RP is really the safest way for a server to run.

What did he mean by this?

To me it looks like you're seemingly following in the footsteps of Paradise or Baystation, and responses from you and other people from your camp appear to range from "no, we're not, that's just a boogeyman" to "what's even so bad about that?". Both to me are pretty much red flags indicating that eventually I will see the same stuff here that made me leave the other two.

RP's not always bad, it just... it usually is. When you start repeating how you want to see "RP", to the point it becomes a mantra, then you end up with players justifying bullshit playstyles as "character gimmicks". With admins and other players falling for it if the character is popular enough. With "toxic" players getting banned if they complain about it too much.

If you want to change the direction of /tg/station to be more focused on "RP", I see stuff like that as an inherent risk.

[Lazengann]

After thinking about it I just want longer average rounds

[onleavedontatme]

After thinking about it I just want longer average rounds

You won't get those for the same reasons.

RP is not for normal people and is gay/cringy

Not to say RP is inherently like this, but from my experience... Once SS13 RP is put in practice, that description is not entirely wrong. When it comes down to it, being nearly no-RP is really the safest way for a server to run.

What did he mean by this?

To me it looks like you're seemingly following in the footsteps of Paradise or Baystation, and responses from you and other people from your camp appear to range from "no, we're not, that's just a boogeyman" to "what's even so bad about that?". Both to me are pretty much red flags indicating that eventually I will see the same stuff here that made me leave the other two.

RP's not always bad, it just... it usually is. When you start repeating how you want to see "RP", to the point it becomes a mantra, then you end up with players justifying bullshit playstyles as "character gimmicks". With admins and other players falling for it if the character is popular enough. With "toxic" players getting banned if they complain about it too much.

If you want to change the direction of /tg/station to be more focused on "RP", I see stuff like that as an inherent risk.

There isn't enough substance in your cryptic warnings to argue about them.

[kevinz000]

The point is you're going to have to end up throwing people out if you want to make TG medrp instead of lowrp (Although arguably it's a little lower than low which is bad IMO). I'm not saying that's a bad thing either, as I'd like to see more RP tbh.

[FantasticFwoosh]

You want medium RP but dont want to throw or exclude people out. Well tough. Its one or the other but ultimately the host would need a say in this or to force a server split.

[cedarbridge]

The point is you're going to have to end up throwing people out if you want to make TG medrp instead of lowrp (Although arguably it's a little lower than low which is bad IMO). I'm not saying that's a bad thing either, as I'd like to see more RP tbh.

Worth consideration that the people who respond the way you're describing, in my experience, are the sort who also have administrative rapsheets longer than Ron Jeremy. I don't think the server will really suffer by their departure to the sorts of "norp" servers they want but refused to go to because those servers don't have our features.

[Nilons]

The point is you're going to have to end up throwing people out if you want to make TG medrp instead of lowrp (Although arguably it's a little lower than low which is bad IMO). I'm not saying that's a bad thing either, as I'd like to see more RP tbh.

Worth consideration that the people who respond the way you're describing, in my experience, are the sort who also have administrative rapsheets longer than Ron Jeremy. I don't think the server will really suffer by their departure to the sorts of "norp" servers they want but refused to go to because those servers don't have our features.

Worth consideration that most jews have a pretty long rapsheet, they basically monopolized every business! I don't think germany will really suffer by their departure to the "farmland".

[DemonFiren]

The point is you're going to have to end up throwing people out if you want to make TG medrp instead of lowrp (Although arguably it's a little lower than low which is bad IMO). I'm not saying that's a bad thing either, as I'd like to see more RP tbh.

Worth consideration that the people who respond the way you're describing, in my experience, are the sort who also have administrative rapsheets longer than Ron Jeremy. I don't think the server will really suffer by their departure to the sorts of "norp" servers they want but refused to go to because those servers don't have our features.

Worth consideration that most jews have a pretty long rapsheet, they basically monopolized every business! I don't think germany will really suffer by their departure to the "farmland".

[TheColdTurtle]

The point is you're going to have to end up throwing people out if you want to make TG medrp instead of lowrp (Although arguably it's a little lower than low which is bad IMO). I'm not saying that's a bad thing either, as I'd like to see more RP tbh.

Worth consideration that the people who respond the way you're describing, in my experience, are the sort who also have administrative rapsheets longer than Ron Jeremy. I don't think the server will really suffer by their departure to the sorts of "norp" servers they want but refused to go to because those servers don't have our features.

Worth consideration that most jews have a pretty long rapsheet, they basically monopolized every business! I don't think germany will really suffer by their departure to the "farmland".

?

[Atlanta-Ned]

Worth consideration that most jews have a pretty long rapsheet, they basically monopolized every business! I don't think germany will really suffer by their departure to the "farmland".

WEE WOO WEE WOO WEE WOO
OK everyone that's the Godwin alarm. Lock the thread, there's nothing salvageable here.

[cedarbridge]

The point is you're going to have to end up throwing people out if you want to make TG medrp instead of lowrp (Although arguably it's a little lower than low which is bad IMO). I'm not saying that's a bad thing either, as I'd like to see more RP tbh.

Worth consideration that the people who respond the way you're describing, in my experience, are the sort who also have administrative rapsheets longer than Ron Jeremy. I don't think the server will really suffer by their departure to the sorts of "norp" servers they want but refused to go to because those servers don't have our features.

Worth consideration that most jews have a pretty long rapsheet, they basically monopolized every business! I don't think germany will really suffer by their departure to the "farmland".

Saegrimir did nothing wrong.

[danno]

Lost a few braincells on that one.

[Qbopper]

Bit late but holy shit internal affairs isn't a dead idea I am so fucking excited

[Slignerd]

Bit late but holy shit internal affairs isn't a dead idea I am so fucking excited

At first I was worried about this. You know, IAA. Made me think you're porting some Baystation style CentComm faxer who tries to get admins to solve IC issues and get people fired.

After reading into this however, it does actually seem pretty interesting, as a nice spin on the concept. Makes me a little worried about "guys I'm working for Nanotrasen, I'm an IAA", but assuming people don't actually do that, I'm looking forward to it.

[itsswagga]

Sligneris is right. I am really opposed to roleplay, and I do believe it is gay/cringy/autistic. /tg/ has always been the laissez-faire server where you won't be banned for not following the boring objectives as a traitor/ling, and you don't need to 'ahelp to make sure it's ok!' constantly before you do anything antagonistic. The "RP" thing really does become a mantra, I don't want us going down the slippery slope and ending up like Yogs or Paradise

[Slignerd]

I am really opposed to roleplay, and I do believe it is gay/cringy/autistic.

Please don't phrase it in such an embarrassing manner.

[onleavedontatme]

I am really opposed to roleplay, and I do believe it is gay/cringy/autistic.

Please don't phrase it in such an embarrassing manner.

RP is not for normal people and is gay/cringy

Not to say RP is inherently like this, but from my experience... Once SS13 RP is put in practice, that description is not entirely wrong.

thinking emoji

[Slignerd]

Not to say RP is inherently like this

That description is not entirely wrong.

[bandit]

now class, what can we cancel out here?

[imblyings]

To address some points

The headmin cabal is aware of the slippery slope from the mystical laissez faire attitude we have to how other servers operate. We know what makes /tg/ unique and we aim to keep it.

The next person to mention medium RP in an unironic way gets a ticket for a free centcom ferry ride. Medium RP is a meme and not doable without dozens of rules and a very different focus on what is 'fun'. The same with high RP. We will not be doing medium RP or high RP or low RP or no RP. What /tg/ has is separate from the true definition of roleplay. /tg/ chase different things, it's the quality of the interaction between players, the memorable experiences, with 'roleplay'''''' not being the sole factor to it all.

look forward to some internal affairs rounds coming soon (tm). It'll have some shaky starts for sure, with rounds wildly varying between admins, but for a thing where the only aim is to gather some experience and data on how players act differently, it should be good.

apart from this there is literally nothing more to say other than that this is the first thread in five years to have achieved something.