Playmin While Another Admin is On

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Cobby
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Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Cobby » #616649

viewtopic.php?p=599581#p599581

above is for discussion, OP was too harsh so dont think I align with that.

Playmining, that is playing while actively being adminned, should not be allowed UNLESS you are the only one on in which case you should wrap up tickets and deadmin again when another joins.

It is bad for optics and more importantly it forces admins to play in a way that would not align with how their character would react because they have information that they must knowingly play dumb on and not ever come to the otherwise normal conclusion.

We can have a separate thread on if playminning at all is allowed, this is specifically for times when you are NOT the only administrator AND not actively working on any ticket (you shouldnt be taking new ones)
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #616651

My old take back in the original thread was

Code: Select all

player perspective, but I would much rather have an admin on during lowpop/times when there are no admins who gets a bit of meta knowledge, even if I was a tator, than no admins at all.

Sybil still has times where we have no admins on. Seeing a scientist hand out a maxcap that is then immediately detonated on the shuttle, a mime steal and waste every bit of iron in an ORM while crew is trying to fight a malf AI, or a non-antagonist miner break into the RD's room to kill the RD after they start defending themselves with no staff on to enforce a semblance of rules (and no one responding in #help) is disheartening.

I literally would not mind if the station's janitor might've heard I was a traitor if it means that tiders get their due punishment.
This is all tossed aside by the fact that you're asking for it to only be not allowed when there's another admin on.

Thus, my !!NEW!! argument hinges on the following: All (?) the admins have played this game for over a year - watched by admins, even if not for candidacy purposes, and generally deemed to be upstanding members of the community before they were candidated. As a new trialmin, I'm surrounded by my seniors, some having been with this team for 7(?) years now. I have trust in the team to not use information gained for their benefit.

In the event of using information gained against their benefit in the hopes of being fair - not coming to a natural conclusion, letting yourself be killed, dying from "unfortunate" accidents that normal players would avoid - should not impact the round in any job that I hope admins take while playminning. A janitor or assistant or botanist dying from a bomb will not ruin the round. Hell, assistants are literally the overflow job and people expect them to fuck off and die in maint already. I agree that admins should not playmin in essential jobs, but the loss of an assistant in order to avoid any possibility of using metainfo as an advantage does not seem like something that would greatly affect the round.

Finally, in terms of OPTICS: holy shit why is this a talking point adminning implies doing something to help the community if you're not abusing the position and not going to affect the round if you die why are people complaining about you taking your time out of when you're normally just playing the game to help the game and server's overall health
I know I'm being abrasive on that final talking point, but it's absolutely deranged to me that it IS a talking point to argue against people trying to take their time to help others in this wacky game
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Cobby » #616654

The problem is that you dont get a big red flashing light when someone uses metainformation like ghost chat to affect their decisions in a way that would otherwise touch upon the round, nor do you get an alert to tell you if that decision mattered. Nothing is alerted and if you're not paying attention to logs post-round you're not even going to know if the admin ever deadminned to begin with.

Assistants tend to make themselves the forefront of issues so at least with that job i think it would be inconsistent with how you would play if you werent playminning, and I think that matters. If you hear a bomb go off you would likely go towards it and see whats the fuss, if you heard it but saw in the logs where it was you'd likely go as far away as you possibly can. How do you know if that difference will make a huge impact? All choices make some impact to the round, and some end up being checkov's gun.

I can buy the argument if you're the only admin because at that point you're trying to balance jannie and having fun, but I can't buy it if you dont have a good reason to be adminned in the first place. Its ripe for abuse, and one that is particularly hard to nail down if you arent braindead obvious about it.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by PKPenguin321 » #616668

Cobby wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:35 pmIt is bad for optics
Explain this buzzword to me please
Does this just mean you're worried a player will go "LOOK LOOK ADMIN CONSPIRACY" because they will do that regardless
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Cobby » #616674

yes
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by BeeSting12 » #616675

Ignoring the optics complaint, cobby is correct in that it will change the outcome of the round ever so slightly by the admin perhaps ignoring a bomb because they saw it in logs etc. Admins should just not admin while playing if there's other admins on to avoid the either unconscious usage of meta knowledge or deliberate going out of way to avoid using meta knowledge. I've played while adminning before and I personally didn't find it fun to constantly make sure I wasn't using meta knowledge by going out of my way to avoid it. There's no reason to be playing/adminning when another admin who isn't playing can do the job more effectively without the concern of meta knowledge.

I think it's fine to play/admin if there's no other admins online but it's not something I would ever do having tried it occasionally.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by MrAlphonzo » #616707

Using metaknowledge to act like you don't have metaknowledge is still using metaknowledge.
This is how people play when they find out someone is a traitor while they're dead and then get revived you jackass.

This "you're poisoning the round argument" is so god damn stupid. Do we get information about the round in ways the players don't? Sure. But it doesn't fucking matter, because you still end up in the exact same scenario.

You find out Lulz McRobusto is a traitor through him ahelping "How do I use my syndicate pda", or you orbit someone who died while you're waiting to get revived and you see Lulz McRobusto covered in blood with a double energy sword saying "Sorry, you were my target."

It doesn't fucking matter how you found out Lulz McRobusto is a traitor, because, if you get stuck in a room with Lulz McRobusto, you're still going to be in the exact same scenario.

Forcing this inane "higher than thou" admin morality on the rest of staff is exactly why people burnout. If you want to admin with a giant stick up your ass, fine, I'm not your boss. But stop trying to force it on everyone else.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Stickymayhem » #616724

BeeSting12 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:04 pm Ignoring the optics complaint, cobby is correct in that it will change the outcome of the round ever so slightly by the admin perhaps ignoring a bomb because they saw it in logs etc. Admins should just not admin while playing if there's other admins on to avoid the either unconscious usage of meta knowledge or deliberate going out of way to avoid using meta knowledge. I've played while adminning before and I personally didn't find it fun to constantly make sure I wasn't using meta knowledge by going out of my way to avoid it. There's no reason to be playing/adminning when another admin who isn't playing can do the job more effectively without the concern of meta knowledge.

I think it's fine to play/admin if there's no other admins online but it's not something I would ever do having tried it occasionally.
This is not a competitive game and no player is obligated to yell that there's a bomb. This argument only makes sense if we are trying to maintain the balance for a competitive video game instead of a roleplaying story generator.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Cobby » #616729

My argument IS based on it being a roleplaying game in the fact that you(r character) would have otherwise gone to the bomb. Acting in a way that is inconsistent with how your character reacts is not conducive to generating roleplay or a story because the rationale for that inconsistency is grounded in something you're not allowed to bring up in the story which is your OOC meta knowledge. You and other people have literally said you act differently than normal when playmining.

No one cares if youre winning or losing the only people who bring this up are supporters of playminning who "play to lose" when theyre both playing and administrating which is supposedly an argument for the practice.

Again its totally cool if youre wrapping up tickets or if you're the only one on because you're being an admin and again I do not want to frame the argument outside of those parameters. If you just want to stay on to talk to your admin friends just use prayer since that seems to be the theme of another policy discussion.
Last edited by Cobby on Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Cobby » #616734

MrAlphonzo wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:27 am Remove being dead from the game.
Ghost information isnt ideal either.

We make the concession to provide observers with all this knowledge because no one wants to stare at a blank screen waiting for a revive. The obvious difference here is that you actually had to have died first to get the information, and you dont continue to get this information to impact future differences nor do you get information from prior to when you died.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by MrAlphonzo » #616739

Cobby wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:38 pm
MrAlphonzo wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:27 am Remove being dead from the game.
Ghost information isnt ideal either.

We make the concession to provide observers with all this knowledge because no one wants to stare at a blank screen waiting for a revive. The obvious difference here is that you actually had to have died first to get the information, and you dont continue to get this information to impact future differences nor do you get information from prior to when you died.
The metainfo is still the same metainfo, regardless of the source. We aren't suddenly rendered incapable of handling it the same way we would as a revived player just because we got it differently.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Pandarsenic » #616772

This is exactly as pointless as every time it's been brought up for the last 7+ years

Once again, this thread is made without even the slightest hint of a "here's an example of literally one actual, concrete case where this thing proved it's a problem"

This thread, every time it comes up, is trying to solve nothing, a nonexistent problem, and true to form, it solves nothing every time.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Misdoubtful » #616780

Pandarsenic wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:23 am This is exactly as pointless as every time it's been brought up for the last 7+ years

Once again, this thread is made without even the slightest hint of a "here's an example of literally one actual, concrete case where this thing proved it's a problem"

This thread, every time it comes up, is trying to solve nothing, a nonexistent problem, and true to form, it solves nothing every time.
I said this the last time honestly and I'm still there. This isn't something running rampant with abuse and actually happening otherwise playmining would get cut down in a heartbeat and everyone would understand and just get it, I guarantee it.

I think it's lame to police other people's style because we don't like it regardless of whether or not they do a good job.

Coming up with all these arbitrary reasons on top of that just makes it feel petty and self righteous. No offense but that's just how it comes off. Saying it ABSOLUTELY DOESN'T WORK when it clearly works for those that do it really makes you think.

Like there's a point where we just need to mind our own business unless they are actually causing a problem. You know, abusing things.

I don't like the idea of someone screaming, conniving against, and generally just witch hunting other admins for having their own style and playmining if this would come to pass it doesn't breed anything healthy.

As said the last time this a roleplaying game not a play to win experience. If someone is constantly in that mindset they might want to take a few steps back from things and reevaluate. This being a roleplaying game, everyone has a degree of OOC information IC. Things are situation dependant and case by case anyways and people have the ability to judge if it's a time where they would be better of deadminning because things are getting heated or just waiting for tickets in the bar or whatever else. I'd like to think that every admin can roleplay. I for one have faith in the admin team about being able to make judgements case by case.

If someone provides me proof on the problems this is causing in the here and now I'll be happy to change my tune, but that burden of proof ain't my problem.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Cobby » #616797

It's incredibly difficult to know and prove someone has misused the info, I agree. To me thats an argument against playminning than it is for specifically because the proof is extremely difficult to obtain especially when you consider individuals trust admins innately anyways so its not like you, a fellow admin who is probably handling tickets since the playminner is probably expect you to anyways, is going to be looking specifically for the playminner misusing the info.

I would argue for the most part it's not even grounded in malicious intent, its just not conducive to the roleplaying game. We limit information for a reason, especially if you're not handling tickets and the other admin on doesnt need you to also be on to handle tickets, you are intentionally playing the game in an undesirable state.

I already addressed the p2w argument above in viewtopic.php?p=616729#p616729.
MrAlphonzo wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:23 pm
Cobby wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:38 pm
MrAlphonzo wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:27 am Remove being dead from the game.
Ghost information isnt ideal either.

We make the concession to provide observers with all this knowledge because no one wants to stare at a blank screen waiting for a revive. The obvious difference here is that you actually had to have died first to get the information, and you dont continue to get this information to impact future differences nor do you get information from prior to when you died.
The metainfo is still the same metainfo, regardless of the source. We aren't suddenly rendered incapable of handling it the same way we would as a revived player just because we got it differently.
well ok PR that players get to keep deadchat then when they're revived or just allow IC in OOC, so long as people wont use it then theres no problem discussing ingame affairs. If the only difference is that you're an admin, then you've missed the plot of playing the game.

Again, respect to people who want to playmin as the only person on, not arguing against that. When there is an admin on and they dont need your help, you can wrap up and deadmin like everyone else.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by BeeSting12 » #616799

My question is what about being admin while playing the game and there are other admins who can handle the job you were doing improves your enjoyment of the game? What makes you want to do that when there's no obligation to do so? If you want to talk to your friends in asay just do it through pray or have another window with discord. And this obviously doesn't apply when you're the only admin online or if the admins online happen to need your help.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Misdoubtful » #616806

BeeSting12 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:11 pm My question is what about being admin while playing the game and there are other admins who can handle the job you were doing improves your enjoyment of the game? What makes you want to do that when there's no obligation to do so? If you want to talk to your friends in asay just do it through pray or have another window with discord. And this obviously doesn't apply when you're the only admin online or if the admins online happen to need your help.
I probably laid out what I meant to say in a bit of less than intended way. I don't playmin, I'm just REALLY looking for some concrete evidence to show me that it is in fact detrimental. I couldn't tell you about what's its like since I don't do it and don't want to speak for the people that do because I don't really get it. I can just understand some of the rational and have a hard time seeing the evidence pointing to the downsides in a roleplaying game.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Cobby » #616823

We can’t prove it’s good or bad because there isn’t a big red light suggesting you abused or otherwise misused information you shouldn’t have, or that you didn’t. We have testimonials of people saying that they play specifically in different ways than they normally do (play to “lose”) when they do playmin though even from people who downright hate the idea of it going away in any form so to me that’s sufficient. How am I suppose to prove the action would have mattered when the action didn’t happen to begin with? What metric matters if we are also subscribing to the idea losing/winning doesn’t?

The argument is that it’s a role playing game is in favor AGAINST playminning because you can’t exactly give a genuine reaction to receiving information when you already know it in advance. The role playing game also has limited information as a core part of its design, yet whenever I bring that up it’s always framed as a lose/win scenario in response rather than bringing up weird “play to lose” responses and having to play dumb.

It’s quite frankly stupid the ask of me has been to prove that someone has not won/lost because of the action while simultaneously religiously chanting that it shouldn’t have anything to do with win/lose because this isn’t a competitive game. I know it’s not the above poster’s doing specifically but the conversation has been incredibly frustrating, as people have setup the discussion for me to “lose” if I engage on either point because the goalpost is just going to swing to the other and when I start discussing the other it swings back again.

ITS NOT ABOUT WINNING OR LOSING, ITS ABOUT PLAYING THE GAME AS INTENDED. (You) should be explaining to ME why you can’t just play the game as intended when there’s no admin need for you to be exposed to the information moving forward. (You) should be explaining to ME why I’m not suppose to care you’re subverting a huge aspect of the ROLEPLAYING PORTION of the game for ??? Better yet just explain how you’re helping the game by doing this and if you can’t answer consider not doing it.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #616829

i thought this was already policy?

It was never a big deal either way, except for the uptillionth drama threads created whining about it with slight variations.

just put it in admin policy as something to avoid doing where possible and be done with it.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Misdoubtful » #616878

ITS NOT ABOUT WINNING OR LOSING, ITS ABOUT PLAYING THE GAME AS INTENDED. (You) should be explaining to ME why you can’t just play the game as intended when there’s no admin need for you to be exposed to the information moving forward. (You) should be explaining to ME why I’m not suppose to care you’re subverting a huge aspect of the ROLEPLAYING PORTION of the game for ??? Better yet just explain how you’re helping the game by doing this and if you can’t answer consider not doing it.
I can understand being frustrated but surely you understand that when something is being asserted without proof behind it so dogmatically that it will be reacted to the way it is. Taking it out on me and everyone else won’t accomplish anything productive. There is a reason I try my very best to keep the word 'should' out of my vocabulary.

Not to mention that this is a hard pill to swallow being that this is already in an admins court regarding making the judgement on when it would be in their best interest to deadmin from a state of playmining as of only recently:
We're fine with the status quo, don't admin and play round critical roles like security, deadmin if you end up getting involved in a sticky situation like an escalation fight.
Any incidents of admin misconduct involving playing while adminned should be reported to us or admin complainted, either works, so we can examine it and talk with the administrator involved.

That being said, you're encouraged but not required to @ supportmin to get someone to cover for you when possible so that you can play without having to worry about what information you act on.
Please remember that this is your proposal: it’s really not our responsibility to explain it to you and convince you on this, that must fall to you to explain to us without miscommunications and convince us. It isn't on us to communicate what you mean so that we can understand what you are getting at. Throwing this onto others as if it is some absolute whilst expecting us to by some miracle just fully understand your theory, agree with it, or be easily persuaded by it: just alienates people. Writing things people have said off as being stupid surely isn't going to make your case any stronger, that will just further alienate them.

With all of that considered it has to look disappointing to others that someone would opt to demand that we explain to them and convince them on this in such a manner and then dismiss us in what is their proposal to reinvent the wheel and change what is in place.

I might as well ebulliently toss in the kinds of questions I normally would ask for something like this though too (I know you yourself answered some but just in general to anyone):
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Last edited by Misdoubtful on Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by JusticeGoat » #616881

I think it comes down to 1. is the admin in question impacting the server in a negative way? 2 if the admin is still admin status while playing are they helping players or another admin with questions?
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Misdoubtful » #616888

JusticeGoat wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:54 am I think it comes down to 1. is the admin in question impacting the server in a negative way? 2 if the admin is still admin status while playing are they helping players or another admin with questions?
My thing is that if they are impacting the server negatively and abusing what they have it's not like the majority of things aren't logged, and if there is something important to log that isn't it's not like it can't be logged in the future. Due diligence, considering how our data is housed, and data literacy could mean these things would catch up to someone eventually. Questionable values leading to questionable decisions tends to become recurring. That and it would be pretty obvious to whoever else is on.

I can see a lot of reasons why someone might want to playmin. I think in that last thread training, being an easy to access resource and mentoring came up for example. Picking up ticket slack if a solo admin gets slammed or the easy low involvement tickets, low level server interactions that don't require much effort like centcom announcements, etc could be justified by someone as well. As the ruling said anything that an admin judges as being too seriously involved might be worth asking for help and then just shifting focus to the game.
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Re: Playmin While Another Admin is On

Post by Cobby » #617093

I wouldnt consider a candidate an admin for the purposes of "someone is already here to take tickets, get off the role". You wouldnt leave them by themselves.

We have adminbus for people who can be alone, so i dont buy any arguments associated with that need (they can even PM you if they are that pressed, it isnt an argument for staying adminned imo).

If there is a large influx of tickets then they can also PM you asking you to assist (or ping on discord like what you would do normally i dont see why that isnt a more sensible option anyways), but preemptively staying adminned because it theoretically might get swamped is silly.

You cannot easily determine what is misuse unless theyre being obvious just like metacomms (ex-com-er here who didnt get banned for it), but people have already admitted they play differently than they would normally when being exposed to admin information. In a game where playing the character, particularly with limited information, is the forefront of the game, that seems to me like a negative impact on the server however small you personally consider it (my argument is that you cant weight it against upsides when you take out the big factor of another admin being on). It would be like playing TTT but you always know who the traitor is so you make it a point to be as unhelpful to the game as possible because every action you do is under the scrutiny of having that information on hand. This is even more true when the focus of the game is less about finding that traitor and more about being helpful to the game.

When we're talking about the confines of "while another admin is on", its not like theres an argument for "well what if there is a missed ticket?" (not that there's much of one anyways with botbus and supportmin).
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