Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.
Forum rules
Read these board rules before posting or you'll get reprimanded.
Threads without replies for 30 days will be automatically locked.
Post Reply
User avatar
Striders13
In-Game Admin
Joined: Tue May 07, 2019 7:59 am
Byond Username: Striders13

Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by Striders13 » #652802

We have an old 2014 headmin ruling regarding fortifying security roundstart:
Fortifying security roundstart - Barriers roundstart are not allowed, flashers are allowed, giving out guns/armor roundstart is allowed.
I'm interested in changing the 'giving out guns/armor roundstart' part. I believe security shouldn't be armed to teeth before code blue is even announced, and I'm honestly kinda tired of seccies sporting full riot gear with a shotgun every round on Terry.
Image
User avatar
Misdoubtful
In-Game Admin
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:03 pm
Byond Username: Misdoubtful
Location: Delivering hugs!

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by Misdoubtful » #652811

I'm going be honest here.

The mindset of this ruling made a lot more sense because of how old tots were, where you could be fully kitted with the good toys one minute in. (gamer gear hungry crew is a constant)

But now? Maybe not so much.

I wonder what the figures are on when antags are getting kitted, getting rep locked gear, etc.

Its also worth keeping in mind the rules at that time:
5. Don’t metagame. Do not ever use information, acquired out of character or through patterns or events your character would not be able to know, in game.

Securing the armory without in-round justification beyond "code blue" is considered metagaming, therefore forbidden.

Securing the armory includes:
Moving parts, or its entirety, to a locker or a/your backpack.
You may take a few guns for personal use, should you have access.
Hiding parts, or its entirety, elsewhere in an attempt to hide it.
Reinforcing it or its doors.
Ordering the AI to bolt it shut.
When it came to guns given out it was specifically about eguns.

Also back then:
Tasers existed and the armory had different tools inside of it
Playing to win wasn't kosher back then too, so handing out guns was one thing, but someone being a nerd about those guns with a must-win mentality was another.

Code blue was also automatic then which promotes getting geared up to some degree and that bad things are going down.
Hugs
User avatar
Vekter
In-Game Admin
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:25 pm
Byond Username: Vekter
Location: Fucking around with the engine.

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by Vekter » #652812

Yeah, I think it's a good idea to forbid this, at least on MRP. There's an argument that it should be allowed on LRP given how chaotic it can get early in a round, but there's no good RP reason to be handing out e-guns at roundstart in like 90% of situations.

Obviously this doesn't count in the case of war ops or a wizard.
Image
Image
Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
User avatar
Pandarsenic
In-Game Admin
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by Pandarsenic » #652817

Honestly, kicking sec's ass and stealing their Armory weapons is about the only way for antags to become dangerous early now anyway, and E-guns/Lasers are genuinely not THAT much more dangerous than the Baton they start with, so... I still think (on LRP) it should be Security's god-given right to lose all their best guns before a threat that warrants them, like a Blob, even arises.

(until and unless someone can give some example recent or near-future rounds where handing out the guns early causes Problems)
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
User avatar
sinfulbliss
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:53 am
Byond Username: SinfulBliss
Location: prisoner re-education chamber

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by sinfulbliss » #652829

As someone who used to open the armory shiftstart every round as HoS I honestly wouldn’t mind this change. Particularly because antags are so much weaker now.

It is nice, though, to have the freedom to make that call as HoS. For instance if it’s black orbit on highpop and you have a single seccie, sometimes there are legitimate reasons to open it early.

The other downside is that it kills sec’s ability to have variety in their kit - some officers like to rock a bulletproof vest and a dragnet, some want a rubbershot shotgun and a riot helmet - it’s nice seeing people with variety. But yeah more often than not that just becomes riot suited seccies with improv shell shotguns.

It might be a better idea to just chuck this under rule 12 and enforce it on a case by case basis.
Spoiler:
Image
Image
Shellton(Mario)
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:43 pm
Byond Username: Sheltton

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by Shellton(Mario) » #652831

I always thought opening armory shift start was a class A shitter move. Although I think dragnet is be one of the things that sec should be allowed to take from the armory seeing as its not that much stronger than your standard bola and is more of a zoning tool than something that can be used as lethals.
SkeletalElite
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:14 pm
Byond Username: SkeletalElite
Github Username: SkeletalElite

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by SkeletalElite » #652891

Frankly, the armory gear isn't much more dangerous than basic sec gear, and I think forbidding this is unnecessary on the standard servers.

The reason to not walk around Riot armor FNR is that its gun, energy, and laser protection is garbage, worse than regular armor and if someone exploits that, you will get your ass beat.
Yes it has shove protection which is mostly useful against tiders, not against antags. The riot armor does nothing to combat the stun baton and if you're fighting seccies in melee without stun baton you're fighting a losing battle no matter what armor they are wearing.

Not to mention the armory frequently contains useful or niche equipment that is fun and would get caught in the crossfire, like the grenade launcher and the Dragnet.
User avatar
Pandarsenic
In-Game Admin
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by Pandarsenic » #652897

SkeletalElite wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:28 am Frankly, the armory gear isn't much more dangerous than basic sec gear, and I think forbidding this is unnecessary on the standard servers.
- Batons are unmatched and have no equivalent of note in the Armory.
- E-guns are less useful than Disablers in most respects | similar(?) magazine capacity and low-capacity lethal option, but can't go in your bag
- Lasers are less useful than Disablers by a substantial margin in normal use cases | If you use them in an arrest of a human, have fun with the AI refusing to help you ever again. Similarly, most crew will fear and distrust your powertripping shitcurity ass and medical will be pissed that they keep having to heal suspects.
- Specialized armors are less useful than normal armor | As you mentioned, because specialized to the point that they're only particularly good in very specific cases

The other stuff is mostly extras of general gear (more disablers, cuffs, flashbangs) or fun, questionably practical toys.

That's why I think the Armory being opened is fine - opening the Armory risks losing their specialized equipment to antags or the tide before a threat it has any use against (halo-level cultists, space dragon, revs, blob) actually shows up, but because it's not addressing a specialized threat, it's generally not really useful to actually have it.
Most Armory gear is worse than normal starter gear unless you are selecting that equipment to address a specific threat.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
User avatar
Striders13
In-Game Admin
Joined: Tue May 07, 2019 7:59 am
Byond Username: Striders13

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by Striders13 » #652899

Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:27 am - Batons are unmatched and have no equivalent of note in the Armory.
- E-guns are less useful than Disablers in most respects | similar(?) magazine capacity and low-capacity lethal option, but can't go in your bag
- Lasers are less useful than Disablers by a substantial margin in normal use cases | If you use them in an arrest of a human, have fun with the AI refusing to help you ever again. Similarly, most crew will fear and distrust your powertripping shitcurity ass and medical will be pissed that they keep having to heal suspects.
- Specialized armors are less useful than normal armor | As you mentioned, because specialized to the point that they're only particularly good in very specific cases

The other stuff is mostly extras of general gear (more disablers, cuffs, flashbangs) or fun, questionably practical toys.

That's why I think the Armory being opened is fine - opening the Armory risks losing their specialized equipment to antags or the tide before a threat it has any use against (halo-level cultists, space dragon, revs, blob) actually shows up, but because it's not addressing a specialized threat, it's generally not really useful to actually have it.
Most Armory gear is worse than normal starter gear unless you are selecting that equipment to address a specific threat.
I disagree. Security having constant access to lethal weaponry makes them a lot more dangerous. 2 laser hits on antag before he escapes is a lot worse than 2 disabler shots, as they leave permanent slowdown (unless antag brought meds with him) and can give infectious wounds that slowly kill him. Antagonist hunted by security can not easily retreat to medbay to patch up, so he's always forced to carry medicine with him. Regarding harming humans - AI is, ironically, not omnipotent, and will probably not see most of fights between traitor and sec.
Plus, having a free to take shotgun roundstart very much ties into the current issue of security crafting improv shells every round, which will probably get them nerfed.
Image
User avatar
kieth4
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:17 pm
Byond Username: Kieth4

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by kieth4 » #652907

Who cares, sec already start with disablers + batons which are more than strong enough to deal with all the threat.

At the end of the day a baton + cleaver is stronger than anything you can get from the armoury, the armoury is just a bit of fun.
User avatar
NamelessFairy
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:40 pm
Byond Username: NamelessFairy

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by NamelessFairy » #652917

To start I'm judging this from a standard ruleset perspective.

I'm not a fan of roundstart for no reason armory handouts but I don't think it should be disallowed on an OOC level. Less for the armory specifically but more the comparison to other situations. If security isn't allowed to lethally equip themselves where does that leave cargo? Cargo can order firearms roundstart and be even more lethal capable than sec with an open armory, it wouldn't make sense to restrict security from handling weapons when cargo could do the same, the same goes for medbay with syringe guns, and I'd hate to see cargo and medbay restricted from utilizing aspects of their job in a sandboxy sense. Rule 12 already covers situations where roundstart militarizing becomes a problem and I'd encourage you to use it where its becoming detrimental to the majority of players enjoyment, rather than introducing policy that is static and cannot account for player enjoyment.
User avatar
Rageguy505
In-Game Admin
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:42 am
Byond Username: Rageguy505

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by Rageguy505 » #652920

I personally don't like policing how players play the game and I appreciate the freedom players have and the different choices a player can make. Limiting armory access for OOC reasons feels unnatural when the rest of the crew is walking around with makeshift and looted weapons.
User avatar
Misdoubtful
In-Game Admin
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:03 pm
Byond Username: Misdoubtful
Location: Delivering hugs!

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by Misdoubtful » #652921

NamelessFairy wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:38 pm To start I'm judging this from a standard ruleset perspective.

I'm not a fan of roundstart for no reason armory handouts but I don't think it should be disallowed on an OOC level. Less for the armory specifically but more the comparison to other situations. If security isn't allowed to lethally equip themselves where does that leave cargo? Cargo can order firearms roundstart and be even more lethal capable than sec with an open armory, it wouldn't make sense to restrict security from handling weapons when cargo could do the same, the same goes for medbay with syringe guns, and I'd hate to see cargo and medbay restricted from utilizing aspects of their job in a sandboxy sense. Rule 12 already covers situations where roundstart militarizing becomes a problem and I'd encourage you to use it where its becoming detrimental to the majority of players enjoyment, rather than introducing policy that is static and cannot account for player enjoyment.
I'd rather just see it be very much seen in the camp of whether or not someone is playing to win or not the more I think about it through rule 12. Just like cargo gets looked at.
12. This is a sandbox roleplaying game

The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. Play-to-win gameplay that ruins the purpose of the game at the expense of others is against the rules.

Rule 12 Precedents

Playing-to-win is to focus exclusively on a competitive victory condition, such as killing all antagonists. It is not empowering yourself to achieve personal goals, or taking measures to survive the shift.
Taking a few items beyond what you need to do your job is usually fine, especially if they're not needed by anyone else. Examples of okay items to take include taking a medkit from the public Medbay lobby or the insulated gloves from tech storage. Hoarding lots of station resources for poor reasons may break this rule and be handled administratively.
Genuine conflict with other players does not ruin the purpose of the game. Player conflicts will continue to be administrated in line with Escalation Rules.
Loot pinatas and people signaling that they are 'bad security' already comes with it.

The original ruling wasn't exactly that specific or forward thinking either, as I had pointed out earlier (it just being off handedly about eguns) ((was it really even a ruling what a weird thread)).

It doesn't need to be complicated. Just like the original ruling wasn't complicated.

Doing it to be efficient and effective as sec is neat. Doing it to absolutely dunk on every antag 0.000002 minutes into the round ain't.
Hugs
User avatar
sinfulbliss
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:53 am
Byond Username: SinfulBliss
Location: prisoner re-education chamber

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by sinfulbliss » #652929

Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:27 am
SkeletalElite wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:28 am Frankly, the armory gear isn't much more dangerous than basic sec gear, and I think forbidding this is unnecessary on the standard servers.
- E-guns are less useful than Disablers in most respects | similar(?) magazine capacity and low-capacity lethal option, but can't go in your bag
- Lasers are less useful than Disablers by a substantial margin in normal use cases | If you use them in an arrest of a human, have fun with the AI refusing to help you ever again. Similarly, most crew will fear and distrust your powertripping shitcurity ass and medical will be pissed that they keep having to heal suspects.
[...]
Most Armory gear is worse than normal starter gear unless you are selecting that equipment to address a specific threat.
I disagree with these parts. Eguns are objective upgrades from disablers - they both have 20 disabler shots but the egun gets the added option of lethals, and since both are carried in suit storage ordinarily anyway, there's no lost functionality by switching out your disabler for an egun.

Although lasers and shotguns aren't good for detaining, almost all seccies that grab these from the armory will just stow their disabler in their bag for the added option, which makes taking these weapons a strict upgrade. A seccie with a lasergun or improv shell shotgun in addition to a disabler is much more of a threat than just a seccie with standard gear.

Agree that batons are still better than all of it and that the armor switches are usually downgrades, but overall because of the added weaponry it will make sec a much greater threat for antags. Even things like dragnets create a massive advantage for sec to have.
Spoiler:
Image
Image
Turbonerd
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:18 pm
Byond Username: AccountName5

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by Turbonerd » #652940

I'm not sure why this turned into a balance discussion. Opening the armoury is trashy, and removes potential atmosphere of the armoury opening when it is needed. It doesn't matter how strong or weak the gear is compared to a baton.
User avatar
Pandarsenic
In-Game Admin
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by Pandarsenic » #652942

Turbonerd wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:43 am I'm not sure why this turned into a balance discussion. Opening the armoury is trashy, and removes potential atmosphere of the armoury opening when it is needed. It doesn't matter how strong or weak the gear is compared to a baton.
Because (in my opinion) it's not even effective powergaming to open the armory - you risk giving all sorts of candy to antags, who can use the weaponry better, for minimal gains (or no gains at all).
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
Shellton(Mario)
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:43 pm
Byond Username: Sheltton

Re: Forbid security from taking armory guns roundstart

Post by Shellton(Mario) » #652957

I mean, I think its also about the mind set someone has who opens the armory shift start. They are willing to for go later rp to gain a possible power boost before its even blue call. I would say that is what rule 12 is trying to fight in its purest form.

Also the armory has riot suits and bullet proof armor which either make you immune to be shove knocked or gives you a lot of damage resistance. Which is pretty big since shove stunning is 99% an opener or a gap creater for people who fight seccies. Bullet proof makes you a lot harder to kill for antags which may win you the fight or allow you to call out to your fellow red tiders for aid before your untimely death.
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]