Mind Transferring into silicons as wizard

[Stickymayhem]

So a couple of weeks ago I had the idea, as an apprentice, to swap into the AI and help my Wizard master. Naturally, I asked adminbus, was told that wizard's can ignore silicon laws, and went nuts. It was a fun round, but later I learn that there isn't really a consensus, but seeing as you don't get a law 0, you do have to obey your laws.

I reckon that Wizards should be able to ignore those laws. It opens the way for new wizard tactics, makes sense IC (Laws have no affect on a mighty wizard brain) and isn't particularly overpowered, but might result in some more creative use of assistants and mindswaps.

Whether this is done by introducing a law 0 when a wizard swaps into a silicon, or just telling people they can, is fine by me.

I'm curious to know what others may think of this though.

[Neerti]

Naturally, I asked adminbus, was told that wizard's can ignore silicon laws

Who told you this? nvm

Also, this would be inconsistent with how other antags being borged work (as in they can't antagonize if their laws prohibit it)

[Stickymayhem]

Just to be clear, if you become an AI or borg as wizard you absolutely have to obey your laws, hence why the round ends if the wizard turns into a borg or AI and there are no summons or apprentices.

[Ikarrus]

Just to be clear, if you become an AI or borg as wizard you absolutely have to obey your laws, hence why the round ends if the wizard turns into a borg or AI and there are no summons or apprentices.

This makes sense to me. I'd go with this

[paprika]

Mindswapping into a borg is literally asking to get rekt as a wizard but I think as an apprentice it's like having a hidden law 0. Antag status and allt hat.

[Stickymayhem]

Mindswapping into a borg is literally asking to get rekt as a wizard but I think as an apprentice it's like having a hidden law 0. Antag status and allt hat.

Apparently that isn't the case.

[Neerti]

Antag status

Note when a traitor, double agent, cultist, revolutinary, nuclear operative (lolgoodluck), etc, are borged, their laws come first.

Why would wizard be any different?

Borged wizards lose their antag pretty much.
Mind-swapped wizards don't get a law zero. I can't remember if they can use spells but if they use a harmful one, it's a law one violation (assuming they're asimov, of course). Also I think the round instantly ends if you don't have apprentices due to silicon = dead as far as objectives go.

[Incoming]

I'm pretty sure you can mindswap out of a borg, and I don't think most people would qualify that as "harm" since it doesn't do any damage. You could use it as a really complicated escape plan, but yes you'd need to make an apprentice or cast summon magic/guns first, because without any antags the round dies instantly.

If you want to get REALLY fancy you can mindswap into a goddamn pAI and be almost completely undetectable. And yes, you can still cast robeless spells as a pAI. Sadly you can't get a apprentice wizard with fireball shotgunning in a pAI I think because the fireballs would immediately blow up on the wizard carrying you. You could be left on the ground in a pAI in a box in a backpack in a closet in a crate in a mech as a sort of hell turret though!

[paprika]

Antag status

Why would wizard be any different?

Because usually borging antags is a punishment and mindswapping with a borg or AI is an actual tactic as an apprentice? If people don't want this, all it needs is a mindswap check so they can't swap with silicons at all. In fact I'd prefer that to Yet Another Policy Argument.

[Steelpoint]

The difference here is that the Wizard/Apprentice is willingly using a power to go take over a Silicon's body/being/whatever. We can assume the spell has a special attribute that overrides the present laws to prevent the laws from constraining the Wizard/Apprentices's ability to complete its mission.

[ColonicAcid]

how about how about.
IF you get borged as a Wizard you still obey your laws.
If you mindswap to a borg you don't?

[Ikarrus]

We'd need a code solution to add a Law 0 for mindswapped wizard cyborgs, then, just to remove any confusion. Until then, though, I'd like to keep them like any other cyborg instead of having to make some counter-intuitive exception in policy.

[Incoming]

0. Magitek means never having to say you're sorry

[Pandarsenic]

We'd need a code solution to add a Law 0 for mindswapped wizard cyborgs, then, just to remove any confusion. Until then, though, I'd like to keep them like any other cyborg instead of having to make some counter-intuitive exception in policy.

Word.

Until there actually IS a sign of antag status in their laws, they gots to follow they laws, homedogmancers, etc.

But yeah, the policy is "follow your laws" in general.

Though... what happens to that law if they mindswap out?

[CreationPro]

Well, you're making some poor sod into a cyborg, so I guess that classifies as harm...?

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Why not just make mind swap an exception due to its nature?

[Stickymayhem]

I just think this is something that could lead the way to more interesting Wizard tactics. The round in which I was apprentice AI (And the wizard had to card me to win) was one of the best rounds I'd ever had. I'd love to encourage more crazy mindswap plays and considering the nature of willingly transporting yourself into another body, I'd like to think that it would make IC sense that you can keep your antagonistic identity.

[Pandarsenic]

If you can be told you overrode the laws of the silicon (0. Accomplish your objectives at all costs) then there won't be an issue, but as-is, it would set a bad example to go "Follow your laws, EXCEPT here," because it should always be apparent what your laws are and how you should follow them as a silicon.

[Aurx]

If you can be told you overrode the laws of the silicon (0. Accomplish your objectives at all costs) then there won't be an issue, but as-is, it would set a bad example to go "Follow your laws, EXCEPT here," because it should always be apparent what your laws are and how you should follow them as a silicon.

I personally think the REALLY fun way to do it would be to attach the laws to the mind instead of the body, so that you'd have a human in wizard clothes who was bound by laws and an silicon wizard with no laws whatsoever unless somebody added some. But that'd take an overhaul of the law code.

Well, you're making some poor sod into a cyborg, so I guess that classifies as harm...?

Can't see how it'd be harm. Human body remains completely uninjured by the swap, and you likely don't intend to injure your new body.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

it would set a bad example to go "Follow your laws, EXCEPT here,"

Oh really?

2.1.1 - Declarations of the silicons as rogue over inability or unwillingness to follow invalid or conflicting orders is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.
2.1.2 - Self-harm-based coercion is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.
2.1.3 - Obviously unreasonable or obnoxious orders (collect all X, do Y meaningless task) are a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.

Honestly, I don't understand why not just allow wizards be antags in any form. I think it would open a ton of fun possibilities.

[Aurx]

Honestly, I don't understand why not just allow wizards be antags in any form. I think it would open a ton of fun possibilities.

The issue is that "Wizards who mindswap into silicons can ignore laws" is a snowflake exception that'd cause headaches when somebody who hadn't read policy but had seen wizardsilicons murdering thought "That silicon was ASIMOV" "That silicon was killing people" "That silicon was played by the wizard" "That silicon didn't get banned" and concluded "Oh, wizards who become silicons can ignore laws" or "Oh, antag status means you can ignore laws" and followed through on their logic. It's solid logic too, which is why it'd be problematic.

[Pandarsenic]

it would set a bad example to go "Follow your laws, EXCEPT here,"

Oh really?

2.1.1 - Declarations of the silicons as rogue over inability or unwillingness to follow invalid or conflicting orders is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.
2.1.2 - Self-harm-based coercion is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.
2.1.3 - Obviously unreasonable or obnoxious orders (collect all X, do Y meaningless task) are a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.

Honestly, I don't understand why not just allow wizards be antags in any form. I think it would open a ton of fun possibilities.

I don't see the problem with saying that humans can't give certain orders or make certain claims without being in violation of server rules?

[lumipharon]

It seems fine how it is, if you get into a borg body, you still have your objectives, but you now also have your laws, whatever those may be. This is where staff of changing your battle apprentices into syndie borgs come in, because there aren't any syndicate agents, their laws are functionally irrelevent, but they still have their objective to protect you. Then they start emagging all the crew who you soc into more borgs, and order them to serve you...
Magically just ignoring laws seems pretty dumb though, IF and I do mean IF you want to enable something like that, make mindswap wipe laws as it jumps into a silicon, or something, not some snowflake thing.

Also seriously, why the fuck was borging changed to cause you to lose antag? Not only does it make it confusing post round (greyshirt mcgriffon was a non antag, pls ban), but it was pretty fun, being able to still try complete objectives, as a silicon, as they were very much still doable, depending on what they were, and what laws you had.