Rules on Megafauna gear

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PathOfChaos1
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Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by PathOfChaos1 » #265250

Under the Lavaland tab in the wiki page there should be some generally regarded rules on how/when/ what to do with the Megafauna drops. Playing admin roulette with items like Mayhem in a bottle/kill contract, Anomalous crystal, the Arena ship, and drake form doesn't seem like a fair way to do things. That or give bubble gum a more... crew friendly drop that will have some use to it that doesn't net you a ban. Like its hard enough to get these things (Either rushing it and not collecting resources being an ass miner) actually not knowing how to fight/get them, or etc. Then not knowing whether the admin on right now will let you use it once you get to it is a bad way to do things. Can we just have a set of rules that state in the wiki that hey you cant/can use x item on the station, or with the crew. I understand some items like Ash storm staff, Lava staff, and various other weapons sole purpose is for combat and of course would be under the whole your not an antag, but this post main focus is generalized rulings on the items that don't necessarily end your round/ it includes other people in what they do. (no more edge cases I have to discover/any one else has to discover)

Thanks for reading my post sorry if it is in the wrong thread I did a quick search and didn't find anything related to rule suggestions.
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kevinz000
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by kevinz000 » #265251

Policy discussion not ideas but otherwise don't be a dick.
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cedarbridge
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by cedarbridge » #265354

That's where I'm coming from here too. Which part of "Follow rule 1" is complicated by lavaland loot?
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PathOfChaos1
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by PathOfChaos1 » #265368

cedarbridge wrote:That's where I'm coming from here too. Which part of "Follow rule 1" is complicated by lavaland loot?
The part where admins per round decide whats dick, and isn't dick? I don't want to play admin roulette for the round I want to know before I put the effort in can I use said object for its purpose or not. I don't see how asking for clarification of something that changes per admin I dont intend to use these items to be a "dick" What I want to do is make a hilarious death ball, or get rid of that one fucking asshole who is being a dick to everyone/people complain about on the comms. Perhaps I want to warn people that hey "this is the clown anomaly (probably due to me being clowned myself) Im about to just leave this in the hallway, and let you have at it. If your only commentary is follow rule 1 when we literally have a metric ass ton of other rules we also enforce can you not meme on the thread? Im here to discuss quick and easy where/when can I use this. Is this a post round end brawl item only or what? Can I get some one to kill contract me so I can chainsaw people? can I kill contract someone else so THEY can chainsaw people? Does changing room themes pose negative effects? Does clowning someone make me enemy number one?

Can a site admin shift this for me to the correct thread? My mistake for placing it here (or if I can do it where do I do that at?)
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Luke Cox
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by Luke Cox » #265370

If you don't like The Arena, you're free to take the pods. Otherwise, I'm fine with people using Mayhem in a Bottle on whoever they please. They earned it, and it's fun for all involved. Just make it so that they revert to a human on death and can be cloned.
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cedarbridge
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by cedarbridge » #265433

PathOfChaos1 wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:That's where I'm coming from here too. Which part of "Follow rule 1" is complicated by lavaland loot?
The part where admins per round decide whats dick, and isn't dick? I don't want to play admin roulette for the round I want to know before I put the effort in can I use said object for its purpose or not. I don't see how asking for clarification of something that changes per admin I don't intend to use these items to be a "dick" What I want to do is make a hilarious death ball, or get rid of that one fucking asshole who is being a dick to everyone/people complain about on the comms. Perhaps I want to warn people that hey "this is the clown anomaly (probably due to me being clowned myself) Im about to just leave this in the hallway, and let you have at it. If your only commentary is follow rule 1 when we literally have a metric ass ton of other rules we also enforce can you not meme on the thread? Im here to discuss quick and easy where/when can I use this. Is this a post round end brawl item only or what? Can I get some one to kill contract me so I can chainsaw people? can I kill contract someone else so THEY can chainsaw people? Does changing room themes pose negative effects? Does clowning someone make me enemy number one?

Can a site admin shift this for me to the correct thread? My mistake for placing it here (or if I can do it where do I do that at?)
That was a lot of words getting irrationally angry at me personally about a rules question. The rules are loose and enforcement is admin controlled for a reason. We don't codify literally every action and permutation of items and actions in the game because it removes context, control and flexibility. It also encourages line-toe stunts and the like. I'm not "memeing on the thread" I'm telling you flatly that Rule 1 is the foundation of the matter. And you're right, there are many other rules, like Rule 6.

Rules are enforced in context and enforced by admins rather than robotic rules arbitration algorithms because without context there's nothing to apply the rules to. You frame this as a "if I use this I'll get banned" but I can't find any instances of anyone getting banned for using a lavaland item where they wouldn't have been banned for using an on-station item for the same purpose. If you get drake's blood, drake yourself and then terrorize the station, you'll get the same ban as if you'd made any other weapon on station and killed everyone you saw. Nothing about using the bubblegum items innately breaches Rule 1. If they did, they wouldn't be available in the game just to act as a bantrap. The only case where I can see the bubblegum stuff approaching rule 1 is if a miner thought that bringing out the arena shuttle in nukeops was a swell idea. If you want to complain that there is too much space to define what "don't be a dick" means under the scope of the rule, then complain that rule 1 is too vague and make that the issue. As it stands you're complaining about an issue that hasn't actually generated controversy.

Still, I fail to see where this policy is vague in a way that matters. You complain about playing "admin roulette" as if there is such variation in admin opinion regarding the items that you're under constant threat but unless there's such a diversity of opinions on this issue that there's a legitimate threat of players being banned arbitrarily. Its not roulette if the gun isn't loaded and so far I'm not seeing anyone ever coming under threat for using the items.
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by onleavedontatme » #265462

>Hey can I know if doing X is going to get me banned or not
>Rules are vague sorry can't say

I don't understand why you're picking a fight with a player acting in good faith and trying to avoid bans instead of trying to guess what "Don't be a dick" means to each of our 40 different admins.
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by onleavedontatme » #265463

Also since you used shuttles as an example:

People have been noted, banned, unbanned, etc, the shuttles have been added, removed, added, removed several times over a couple months as admins tried to feel out how they fit into our rules. If the people who have volunteered to understand and enforce this stuff and are privy to all the behind the scenes conversations about the rules had trouble agreeing on it, it's unreasonable to expect a casual player should just be able to feel out our unwritten and shifting policy on it.

Rule 1 is a terrible, vague mess and the rest of the rules page is basically laying out in detail the thousand exceptions we have to it.
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cedarbridge
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by cedarbridge » #265468

Kor wrote:>Hey can I know if doing X is going to get me banned or not
>Rules are vague sorry can't say

I don't understand why you're picking a fight with a player acting in good faith and trying to avoid bans instead of trying to guess what "Don't be a dick" means to each of our 40 different admins.
I don't think this is accurate though. The rules are intentionally vague in this respect for the reasons I outlined. If we went through and codify every possible permutation of every possible outcome and decided "these will get you banned, full stop" and "these will not get you banned, full stop" then it just invites people to toe the line and act just left of awful to avoid getting banned. That's not to say we can't have clarity or directness in some cases, but I don't see this as one of them. More it just appears a case of "if players can be banned for using these when they get them in the way they do, why are they even there?" which I think was a legitimate question in the original post. If its not something players are banned for then its a non-issue and no specific rules are required because the rules as we have them already work. I'm not trying to pick fights here, I'm just saying that complaining that there's a major issue here that people are dodging bans for is inaccurate as to my recollection (and that of those I asked in the bus) nobody has been banned for using the bubblegum items.
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TehSteveo
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by TehSteveo » #265477

To be fair, Shaps did rule during their headmin term that non-antagonist shouldn't be using items like blood contract and at the time the blood vials(slaughter demons). We then kinda forgot about it being an issue as more lethal things were removed and loot was shifted around on lavaland. As such, I haven't really seen people being warned or banned for abusing lavaland loot. To be honest I haven't really hardly seen a lot the deadly items used by non-antagonist so I do wonder if people are under the impression still not to touch some this stuff from said ruling which more or less applies to the blood contract these days being the more lethal of the items anymore. (I mean it is logged for us to see who did it and on who).

The other items for most part are not as lethal but just annoying or they still require a person to be an antagonist to really use. E.G Using the item to make yourself an ash drake doesn't mean you can kill the station now.

Being a lame duck right now I'll probably just not make really any decision on this one which way and leave it to Joan, Ausops, and whoever wins the player vote to make any further decisions.
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cedarbridge
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by cedarbridge » #265479

TehSteveo wrote:To be fair, Shaps did rule during their headmin term that non-antagonist shouldn't be using items like blood contract and at the time the blood vials(slaughter demons). We then kinda forgot about it being an issue as more lethal things were removed and loot was shifted around on lavaland. As such, I haven't really seen people being warned or banned for abusing lavaland loot.
If that's the case then I'm fine with that as well.
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CPTANT
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by CPTANT » #265562

Seriously rule 1 is a horrible rule for a game where basically everyone is being a dick to each other.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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PathOfChaos1
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by PathOfChaos1 » #265605

Thanks for replying so far. Just to clarify I don't mean turn Ash drake and rape everyone, but the fact if I "have to///E.x. Literally any combat scenario that involves someone with stuns/immunity/aliums. The Drake has Two very large area effect attacks, fire, slam+fire rain." Which can cause breaches, and burning a couple innocents. The Arena shuttle is by far my favorite shuttle, next to the Raven Battleship I would pick it every time I'm captain if I could. I just wanted a consensus on item usage. We can clearly state hey? using the bombs on the station is a fucking problem! The Mayhem doesn't just exclude people of any retaliation. If you don't want to fight flea, if you do stay. if im not using it to snipe sec, and just using it on passing assistants/clown/liggers am I okay or am I still in the black? Perhaps the new headmins will word in on it, and help discuss it. I just wanted some simple guidelines/ precedents added for the very odd lava land loots. Which if you look at the stats hub very few people have consistently killed Bubblegum so its wide spread use isn't prominent with everyone. Even less so for the Colossus.

Tl;Dr Thanks for considering the policy update/wiki change/precedent addition. Just wanted to get some things straight now, and for the future.
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by Atlanta-Ned » #265647

CPTANT wrote:Seriously rule 1 is a horrible rule for a game where basically everyone is being a dick to each other.
lol enjoy ur 20 page list of rules on what u can and cannot do!!!!!!1
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CPTANT
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by CPTANT » #265663

Atlanta-Ned wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Seriously rule 1 is a horrible rule for a game where basically everyone is being a dick to each other.
lol enjoy ur 20 page list of rules on what u can and cannot do!!!!!!1
No man, just don't be an EXCESSIVE dick.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Luke Cox
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by Luke Cox » #265687

Madness in a bottle is a non-issue. As long as the person targeted can be cloned after death, there is no problem. Like I said before, if you don't like The Arena, feel free to take the pods. If people are too stupid to do that, maybe make one of the portals a "carebear" portal that whisks them away to a shuttle filled with green grass, candy, and unicorns or some shit (like the pleb compartment in the luxury shuttle). People can't even have fun(tm) without someone getting triggered over it.
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by imblyings » #265837

arena shuttle is ok

marked for death/blood contract is fine too but if the code doesn't allow for the person to be cloned that probably should change

drakes are fine, retaliate if they willingly remove themselves from the gene pool by attacking you but don't drake yourself just so you can murderbone the station

what else does lavaland have
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by Armhulen » #265840

imblyings wrote:arena shuttle is ok

marked for death/blood contract is fine too but if the code doesn't allow for the person to be cloned that probably should change

drakes are fine, retaliate if they willingly remove themselves from the gene pool by attacking you but don't drake yourself just so you can murderbone the station

what else does lavaland have
BZZZT

ooh sorry wrong answer, you can and will get banned for defending yourself as a dragon
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Haevacht
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by Haevacht » #265843

Armhulen wrote:
imblyings wrote:arena shuttle is ok

marked for death/blood contract is fine too but if the code doesn't allow for the person to be cloned that probably should change

drakes are fine, retaliate if they willingly remove themselves from the gene pool by attacking you but don't drake yourself just so you can murderbone the station

what else does lavaland have
BZZZT

ooh sorry wrong answer, you can and will get banned for defending yourself as a dragon
This is one of the funniest things I've seen someone say to a headmin in a while, good job.
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imblyings
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by imblyings » #265847

without context and name of admin that post is useless to anybody who can make a post itt that actually matters
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imblyings
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by imblyings » #265856

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... ke#p226219

>headmin at the time throws it out
>kor, maker of lesser drake, calls it ridiculous, and mentions an issue with the drake mob involuntarily spitting out fire, which may have worsened the situation
>the admin making the ban was at fault, due to insufficient communication between admin and player

?
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Armhulen
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by Armhulen » #265874

I coulda swore the resolution on the ash drakes was "don't go to the station and don't fight back when attacked or else
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imblyings
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by imblyings » #265880

Well better check before you post next time

get RID of your EMU avatar as well
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Re: Rules on Megafauna gear

Post by Armhulen » #265887

imblyings wrote:Well better check before you post next time

get RID of your EMU avatar as well
fine

when i GET AROUND TO IT.
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