Murderbones on latenight

MollyKristoph · Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:36 am

They're not fun for anyone but the murderboner.
Most people up this late are just trying to autismfort.
Why is it allowed to happen?
The response is typically 'git gud scrub' when really, what's there to git gud with when one is hit with an ebow?
Please allow admins to do FUN things to murderboners when pop drops <40 or after 0100 CST, or something. Fuck, I dunno.
Either way, it's not fun, it's disheartening, and makes some people just stop playing.

calzilla1 · Post by **calzilla1** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:42 am #272867

Sing it with me! E R T for U & Me

MollyKristoph · Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:48 am

calzilla1 wrote:Sing it with me! E R T for U & Me

If only they had been spawned.

Post by **Owegno** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:12 am #272874

MollyKristoph wrote:Please allow admins to do FUN things to murderboners when pop drops <40 or after 0100 CST, or something. Fuck, I dunno.

We are allowed to do things to murderboners and most admins spawn ERT's against them. Unless you are talking about things like removing all of a murderboners arms or other things that directly harms them.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:21 am #272875

They can't kill you if you kill them.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:31 am #272876

I wonder if there's some way we could automate the ERT system. Make it so that one is deployed automatically if enough people die. We could also try automatically spawning revenants will full memories of their lives.

Lumbermancer · Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:12 am

Saegrimr wrote:They can't kill you if you kill them.

They get access to professional killing hardware, you get floor tiles.

Post by **oranges** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:21 am #272886

knowing how to dunk a fully equipped antag with things you can get as a non antag is what seperates you from the lesser beings.

Lumbermancer · Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:41 am

Well I guess then 90% of the station is destined to get killed by design.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:41 am #272890

Easy to say if you're prepared. No competent murderboner is going to give you any advance warning. You'll be minding your own business, and the next second you'll see a flash of a dual esword and half your limbs will be gone.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:25 pm #272917

i think the issue here is there's no competent people maining security on sybil so late into the night so they constantly have issues where bagil would be fine because there'd be atleast one person in security who isn't dumb.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:58 pm #272973

The fact of the matter is that in any "murderboner" situation, there will probably be a point where it is known to this station that this person is loose
which gives you ample time to do SOMETHING about it
any time I see a person go on a rampage and NOT manage to get stopped, it's because then crew doesn't really do anything about it. So they keep catching people alone and off guard and whittling down the population.
Start doing something about it. Get a couple co-workers and grab some weapons and stay together. You're dealing with a single person for fuck's sake.

the unfortunate and unironic answer is "git gud"

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:06 pm #272978

On the one hand I can sympathize with the get good crowd because >one person is fucking roaming the station and literally no one is doing ANYTHING ABOUT IT

On the other I have zero sympathy for lowpop murderboners, it's just fucking boring

Admins usually do fuck with lowpop murderboners (from my experience), though, so this thread doesn't mean much

Post by **Cobby** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:20 pm #272985

Honestly sybil lowpop should default to just extended. If you want to fight/be a baddie, go basil where there's more of a fair fight. Likewise, if you want to relax and build an autism fort, go sybil.

This is not 2000 SS13 where lowpop = a group of friends having fun with each other [and as such act in good faith], this is several random players who don't care if they ruin the other guy's round as early as possible. I almost think there should be a special extended that prints a line giving you the IP to basil like every 10 minutes so anyone who joins midway will know where to go.

You also have to be mindful usually lowpop = 0/low admins, so "just spawn an ERT" is not a reliable option when most admins aren't going to wakeup in the middle of their sleep to check on 2d atmos sim to make sure no one has slaughtered the crew.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:06 pm #273007

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Honestly sybil lowpop should default to just extended. If you want to fight/be a baddie, go basil where there's more of a fair fight. Likewise, if you want to relax and build an autism fort, go sybil.

This is not 2000 SS13 where lowpop = a group of friends having fun with each other [and as such act in good faith], this is several random players who don't care if they ruin the other guy's round as early as possible. I almost think there should be a special extended that prints a line giving you the IP to basil like every 10 minutes so anyone who joins midway will know where to go.

You also have to be mindful usually lowpop = 0/low admins, so "just spawn an ERT" is not a reliable option when most admins aren't going to wakeup in the middle of their sleep to check on 2d atmos sim to make sure no one has slaughtered the crew.

the best part is when you log onto sybil and there was a murderboner who killed a crew of ~20 and all but 3 people have disconnected because the shuttle hasn't been called and the antag is jerking themselves off about nothing

lzimann · Post by **lzimann** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:29 pm #273010

If it becomes a problem where it starts to kill the server pop, it can always turn into a note/ban if that's all the person does(or if it's something that constantly happens).

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:27 pm #273035

lzimann wrote:If it becomes a problem where it starts to kill the server pop, it can always turn into a note/ban if that's all the person does(or if it's something that constantly happens).

There is precedent for this.

Spoiler:

captain sawrge · Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:22 pm

Why not just gate the more desctructive traitor items like ebow, bombs, esword, etc when the pop is too low

calzilla1 · Post by **calzilla1** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:24 pm #273050

Lumbermancer wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:They can't kill you if you kill them.
They get access to professional killing hardware, you get floor tiles.

Floortiles>any weapon in the game

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:01 pm #273058

captain sawrge wrote:Why not just gate the more desctructive traitor items like ebow, bombs, esword, etc when the pop is too low

I think this is an interesting idea, but considering the response you see even on the forums when anyone has anything mildly negative to say about traitor gear you immediately get called a hugboxer so I'm not sure if this would fly

captain sawrge · Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:03 pm

Qbopper wrote:
captain sawrge wrote:Why not just gate the more desctructive traitor items like ebow, bombs, esword, etc when the pop is too low
I think this is an interesting idea, but considering the response you see even on the forums when anyone has anything mildly negative to say about traitor gear you immediately get called a hugboxer so I'm not sure if this would fly

Those people do not matter

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:33 pm #273070

I wish I could agree with you but from my experience if someone starts shouting about something it taints the perspective everyone else has about [thing]

but either way yeah I'd be down to try that out

captain sawrge · Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:46 pm

An ebow and esword can wipe out lowpop with minimal effort, even if you're "bad" at combat, and yet somehow it's the people against this that are advocating hugbox. Traitors shouldn't be babysat and given stupid WMDs so they can guarantee a victory or whatever.
If people want to go for lowpop murderboner, at least make them work a little for it a little more so that it isn't such a free victory.

Screemonster · Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:51 pm

scale tc to population when

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:37 pm #273099

kevinz000 wrote:i think the issue here is there's no competent people maining security on sybil so late into the night so they constantly have issues where bagil would be fine because there'd be atleast one person in security who isn't dumb.

That's true, but even if you have a sec officer or two they'll still get the shit ripped out of them if the murderboner is competent. My usual response to this is "git gud" but I can see how it's a problem. I've always thought that Revenants could be a great organic anti-murderbone mechanic if you gave them full memories of their past lives and set them loose. They can still get dunked, but traitors would have a real mechanical drawback to murderboning.

MollyKristoph · Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:51 am

Luke Cox wrote:
kevinz000 wrote:i think the issue here is there's no competent people maining security on sybil so late into the night so they constantly have issues where bagil would be fine because there'd be atleast one person in security who isn't dumb.
That's true, but even if you have a sec officer or two they'll still get the shit ripped out of them if the murderboner is competent. My usual response to this is "git gud" but I can see how it's a problem. I've always thought that Revenants could be a great organic anti-murderbone mechanic if you gave them full memories of their past lives and set them loose. They can still get dunked, but traitors would have a real mechanical drawback to murderboning.

That could be neat. This with ERT as a next-level escalation automatic response that comes up when Pop <35 overall ghosts/deads, and only like, 15% of the crew is alive, going ERT when it drops to below 10%?

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:00 am #273167

personally if I catch someone murderboning on latenight they're getting fucked up hard by buttons if they try to delay the round more than it needs to be delayed or are just doing it for the shits and giggles because no one wants to sit an hour looking at deadchat while one guy brags about he's so good he can kill 15 people.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:09 am #273175

Ideally we should try to find a mechanical solution to this rather than a policy one

onleavedontatme · Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:28 am

Fucking people up with buttons or ERT or whatever might be carthartic but it doesn't stop the round from being garbage in the first place.

Admins and coders have spent years stressing that people shouldn't "valid hunt" or fight antags as crew, so to hear those same people saying "lol just kill them yourself when you have no sec" is silly.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:04 am #273182

If you're allowed to kill traitors, the crew is going to validhunt. Encouraged or taboo, it's a fact of life in SS13. In most cases, it's a terrible idea because the traitor is way more prepared and better equipped than the average assistant. That fact won't stop them from trying through. Fighting validhunting is like fighting gravity, so we're better off introducing some kind of mechanic to punish or at least annoy validhunters. Revenants are the perfect avenue in my opinion because 90% of the work is already done, it fits lore-wise (literal grief ghost), and it's a pain to deal with without dominating the round. Some kind of automatically triggered event would be the best way to deal with this. The real challenge would be to decide which metric to use, since the game doesn't track kills or anything of the sort, just the total number of live players.

Screemonster · Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:51 am

It can track attacks done directly by a player to another player, it can drack damage dealt, it can track damage dealt that puts people into crit, and the most uncreative, boring methods of murderboning tend to fall into "roam around clicking people until they go sideways".

If people want to be clever and "get around" this detection method by doing things that kill their victims indirectly, good.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:28 am #273206

Alright, so maybe the whole vengeful Revenant thing can work. I wouldn't mind it happening even during highpop. We could make it so that a Revenant with full memories of its past life has a chance of spawning every time a single player deals x amount of damage, and the pool of possible players would need to consist of players that the attacker has put into crit who are dead now.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:35 am #273212

Screemonster wrote:It can track attacks done directly by a player to another player, it can drack damage dealt, it can track damage dealt that puts people into crit, and the most uncreative, boring methods of murderboning tend to fall into "roam around clicking people until they go sideways".

If people want to be clever and "get around" this detection method by doing things that kill their victims indirectly, good.

fuck this is genius

make the powergamers powergame creatively

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:44 am #273219

It makes sense too. People killed by unconventional means probably wouldn't know how they died IC-wise, so no vengeful spirits there. I think we're onto something here. Punishes murderboning without outright stopping it, and encourages creative killing.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:15 am #273266

i think you're really confused on how powerful revenants are.
the thing is
they're not really that powerful on a murderboner if they're prepared.
tracking attacks alone is silly.
i think this is more of a policy/player issue than a mechanical/coding one.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:58 am #273290

Some people like to let off steam after a rough day with some good ol' killin', and late night is the best time for that: low pop, no sec, only pure unrestrained slaughter. There is this misconception that low pop is best for autism projects/research/slow peaceful long rounds but I learned in the hard way that it's exactly the opposite, it's either murderbone or round ends as soon as power goes out because nobody bothered or cares enough to set it up (tbh when I stopped playing in lowpop it was before SM engine but I doubt it's much different now).

Also I assume that people who play late night are still going to bed eventually, well let me tell you that there's nothing worse than getting salty/pissed off right before bed, it ruins your sleep and makes you much more nervous the morning after. So if you care about yourself you shouldn't really play late night tgstation expecting to relax and wallow in your pet peaceful project because that isn't really going to happen. Play high pop for that.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:02 pm #273291

Revenants are easy to kill if the target is prepared for them. A single shotgun alone can one shot a Revenant, let alone the array of weapons on offer to Traitors

The problem with low pop Sybil is the utter lack of anyone in security. A single Security Officer is not enough and is easy prey if he's taken out first, if he is given time to prepare then he can become a genuine threat to a murderboner.

I think Low Pop murderboning could be curtained if a automatic way of summoning the ERT was added, such as if a single people deals enough damage to enough people, and kills a certain amount of people through this, then the ERT will be automatically called.

Even three ERT Officers will be very well equipped to deal with most murderboners.

XDTM · Post by **XDTM** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:06 pm #273292

Grazyn wrote:Some people like to let off steam after a rough day with some good ol' killin', and late night is the best time for that: low pop, no sec, only pure unrestrained slaughter. There is this misconception that low pop is best for autism projects/research/slow peaceful long rounds but I learned in the hard way that it's exactly the opposite, it's either murderbone or round ends as soon as power goes out because nobody bothered or cares enough to set it up (tbh when I stopped playing in lowpop it was before SM engine but I doubt it's much different now).

Also I assume that people who play late night are still going to bed eventually, well let me tell you that there's nothing worse than getting salty/pissed off right before bed, it ruins your sleep and makes you much more nervous the morning after. So if you care about yourself you shouldn't really play late night tgstation expecting to relax and wallow in your pet peaceful project because that isn't really going to happen. Play high pop for that.

In highpop the shuttle gets called too soon to do projects, even for extended. And just because someone really enjoys easy mode murderbone it doesn't mean that ruining the round for everyone else is ok. Some people like to let off steam after a rough day with some good ol' buildin' , and late night is the best time for that.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:00 pm #273372

If you think the lights suddenly shut off on Sybil late night, you've clearly never played it. We've had 2+ hour rounds without a single casualty and with all basic services working. It works because the potential for being a faceless mook who can be shit and go priced goes down with the population.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:15 pm #273376

Grazyn wrote:Some people like to let off steam after a rough day with some good ol' killin', and late night is the best time for that: low pop, no sec, only pure unrestrained slaughter. There is this misconception that low pop is best for autism projects/research/slow peaceful long rounds but I learned in the hard way that it's exactly the opposite, it's either murderbone or round ends as soon as power goes out because nobody bothered or cares enough to set it up (tbh when I stopped playing in lowpop it was before SM engine but I doubt it's much different now).

Also I assume that people who play late night are still going to bed eventually, well let me tell you that there's nothing worse than getting salty/pissed off right before bed, it ruins your sleep and makes you much more nervous the morning after. So if you care about yourself you shouldn't really play late night tgstation expecting to relax and wallow in your pet peaceful project because that isn't really going to happen. Play high pop for that.

this is the least accurate post I've ever read

Post by **Cobby** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:49 pm #273383

Ok so instead of my extended idea we setup a vote for pure extended or pure chaos [everyone is a traitor] so now you [the player] can decide how HIGH OCTANE !!FUN!! the round is going to be [this is per round].

If people are tired of tee hee kill everyone, they'll vote extended. Maybe even have respawn on or something.

If people are ansy they didn't get traitor earlier that day, they may vote REV UP THE KILL MACHINE.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:05 pm #273466

seems like an interesting idea - it would be gated by population (so if there's [number]+ players on you get what the game rolls and you'll like it), right?

EDIT: I don't know if I would want this, to clarify, but it's interesting

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:10 pm #273467

tl;dr: everyone's salty they didn't get antag or got dunked while antag
thus nobody ever votes extended

captain sawrge · Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:34 pm

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Ok so instead of my extended idea we setup a vote for pure extended or pure chaos [everyone is a traitor] so now you [the player] can decide how HIGH OCTANE !!FUN!! the round is going to be [this is per round].

If people are tired of tee hee kill everyone, they'll vote extended. Maybe even have respawn on or something.

If people are ansy they didn't get traitor earlier that day, they may vote REV UP THE KILL MACHINE.

That's terrible

Post by **oranges** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:51 pm #273482

Kor wrote:Fucking people up with buttons or ERT or whatever might be carthartic but it doesn't stop the round from being garbage in the first place.

Admins and coders have spent years stressing that people shouldn't "valid hunt" or fight antags as crew, so to hear those same people saying "lol just kill them yourself when you have no sec" is silly.

yeah maybe the tumblrites of the admin crew.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:02 am #273487

save it for the hut ty

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:17 am #273513

kevinz000 wrote:i think you're really confused on how powerful revenants are.
the thing is
they're not really that powerful on a murderboner if they're prepared.
tracking attacks alone is silly.
i think this is more of a policy/player issue than a mechanical/coding one.

If they have the means to murderbone half the crew, they have the means to kill a Revenant. The idea behind letting have their memories is that they'll have free license to fulfill any grudges. We want this to annoy and inconvenience murderboners to maybe discourage that kind of gameplay, give the victims some form of catharsis, and generally spice up the round. Revenants are the a pain in the ass but not quite as heavy handed as an ERT.

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:19 am #273552

captain sawrge wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Ok so instead of my extended idea we setup a vote for pure extended or pure chaos [everyone is a traitor] so now you [the player] can decide how HIGH OCTANE !!FUN!! the round is going to be [this is per round].

If people are tired of tee hee kill everyone, they'll vote extended. Maybe even have respawn on or something.

If people are ansy they didn't get traitor earlier that day, they may vote REV UP THE KILL MACHINE.
That's terrible

So is running around with an ebow-esword when only 6 other people are playing the game and the only 1 that cared to actively hunt for you has already been killed [because you have an ebow-esword].

If you give EVERYONE an ebow-esword though everyone has a blast

[or just vote for extended and you don't have to deal with the memery].

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:03 am #273558

Luke Cox wrote:
kevinz000 wrote:i think you're really confused on how powerful revenants are.
the thing is
they're not really that powerful on a murderboner if they're prepared.
tracking attacks alone is silly.
i think this is more of a policy/player issue than a mechanical/coding one.
If they have the means to murderbone half the crew, they have the means to kill a Revenant. The idea behind letting have their memories is that they'll have free license to fulfill any grudges. We want this to annoy and inconvenience murderboners to maybe discourage that kind of gameplay, give the victims some form of catharsis, and generally spice up the round. Revenants are the a pain in the ass but not quite as heavy handed as an ERT.

The heavyhandedness is intentional though.

Incomptinence · Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:31 pm

They can't kill you if you're already dead.