Searching for the Nuke Op shuttle

[WarbossLincoln]

So this is less of a thread to discuss policy as it is one to discuss enforcement.

The rules on searching for the Nuke Op shuttle are pretty clear, albeit clunky. You aren't allowed to search for the shuttle unless you have something directly leading you there. Like a pinpointer or following an op.

The issue is that this seems to be arbitrarily enforced by whatever admins happen to be online at the time. There's a recent ban appeal for someone getting banned for using the teleporter to steal the nuke. They were told the above rule and got banned for it. However I was in a round recently where an engineer flew to the shuttle locations after ops were discovered until he found it and then spaced the nuke. This was considered 100% ok by the admins online at the time.

We need some consistency in the rulings here.

Also, this is more of a suggestion but I think the nuke ops should be able to use the disk and their code in the station self destruct terminal.

[Lazengann]

If the ops came in from southwest solars isn't it reasonable to search around southwest solars for their ship?

[cedarbridge]

Worth pointing out, but if you guys are going to insist on encouraging policy that expands when and how crew can invade (usually just maxcap) the syndicate shuttle you're also going to have to advocate for increased scaling of the number of ops on the shuttle itself. The ops shuttle has turrets and some OOC protections because invading the station as a handful of dudes is already a tough job. They can't be expected to:
1) Know the shuttle is under assault by some random nerd with a bomb who just decided to go looking for the shuttle instead of helping protect the disk in a thirst for valids.
2) Somehow be able to respond to that threat without remaining on the shuttle waiting for somebody to assault the shuttle and thereby hindering the already underwhelming number of ops on the boarding team.

[calzilla1]

I thought you said nuke ops bundle (which is the best bundle and also we should remove the weighting on bundle selection)

[Slignerd]

There's a recent ban appeal for someone getting banned for using the teleporter to steal the nuke.

You mean a hand teleporter, telesci, or a regular teleporter?

[cedarbridge]

There's a recent ban appeal for someone getting banned for using the teleporter to steal the nuke.

You mean a hand teleporter, telesci, or a regular teleporter?

Telesci

[Slignerd]

Going in the shuttle's vague direction and finding it is one thing. Checking the shuttle's exact coordinates from the spawn point in the code and using it to teleport the nuke is another.

Not to say that the other example is commendable either. This is the kind of problem that would be best solved by simply letting nuke ops choose shuttle location manually.

[imblyings]

This was considered 100% ok by the admins online at the time.

which admins??

details???

you say shuttle locations, do you mean all the possible shuttle locations going by the .dmm? are you sure the engineer was methodically searching each shuttle location? who was the engineer?

the rules seem pretty clear, if admins aren't enforcing them in a clear cut situation this is a failure of the admins present then

[WarbossLincoln]

This was considered 100% ok by the admins online at the time.

which admins??

details???

you say shuttle locations, do you mean all the possible shuttle locations going by the .dmm? are you sure the engineer was methodically searching each shuttle location? who was the engineer?

the rules seem pretty clear, if admins aren't enforcing them in a clear cut situation this is a failure of the admins present then

Don't remember who, it was like a week ago. I don't really care that they did it, it just struck me as odd the difference in enforcement of a very specific rule after I saw someone get banned for it. The ops got back after trumping the station and found the nuke gone. After it ended someone in deadchat was saying he got into the back of the shuttle next to the nuke while healing himself with brute patches through the machine gun fire that's light back there. I think he flew to all the set shuttle locations until he found it.

It's less meta to search the locations for it than to use the coords for telescience. What struck me was how very specific the rule is, to only ever go to the ops shuttle if you follow an op or a pinpointer, I think neither of which applied here.

[Cobby]

If you can explain how you got to the ship aside from either "I know the shuttle locations" or an equivalent to "I was just searching for it because I know it's Ops" [arguably the same thing] I will say i'm pretty lenient on the matter.

[Screemonster]

Regardless of whether there's a specific, notarised, clause-and-subclause paragraph x subsection y policy on the matter it's still a pretty shitty powergamey dick move.

[killerx09]

What happened to just putting exterior turrets on the shuttle?

[cedarbridge]

What happened to just putting exterior turrets on the shuttle?

Telesci happened.
Throwing maxcaps at the shuttle happened.
Borgs happened.

[D&B]

What if you get a scout holoparasite and it finds the shuttle for you?

[Shaps-cloud]

spacing the nuke while the ops are out fighting is the lamest thing imaginable and fun for literally no one, don't do it

[J_Madison]

The solution to the question is don't play like a selfish fun depriving subhuman.
I know it's hard to share the cake, but if you have to ask yourself or an admin if what you're doing is selfish and steals fun away from others, don't do it.

[Qbopper]

if you have to ask yourself or an admin if what you're doing is selfish and steals fun away from others, don't do it.

the problem is that many people don't even consider this point of view

[imblyings]

This was considered 100% ok by the admins online at the time.

which admins??

details???

you say shuttle locations, do you mean all the possible shuttle locations going by the .dmm? are you sure the engineer was methodically searching each shuttle location? who was the engineer?

the rules seem pretty clear, if admins aren't enforcing them in a clear cut situation this is a failure of the admins present then

Don't remember who, it was like a week ago. I don't really care that they did it, it just struck me as odd the difference in enforcement of a very specific rule after I saw someone get banned for it. The ops got back after trumping the station and found the nuke gone. After it ended someone in deadchat was saying he got into the back of the shuttle next to the nuke while healing himself with brute patches through the machine gun fire that's light back there. I think he flew to all the set shuttle locations until he found it.

It's less meta to search the locations for it than to use the coords for telescience. What struck me was how very specific the rule is, to only ever go to the ops shuttle if you follow an op or a pinpointer, I think neither of which applied here.

quoting it as an example is absolutely useless without admins I can track down and have a talk to

Without details, I can only say admins at the time may have erred on the side of caution if a player couldn't be proven to have meta'd the ship locations. It's a possibility but that makes it an expected occurrence while adminning, instead of a lapse in enforcement or a genuine enforcement consistency issue.

[Screemonster]

Put it this way - if traitors/lings were confirmed, would it be acceptable for the HoS to immediately go down the list of possible-in-code steal objectives and incinerate them to deny greentext?

Stumbling across an assistant with the CE's magboots in his bag is one thing, hunting down the CE like "there are traitors, gotta burn your boots just in case" is closer to "I'm just going to check this list of coords just in case".

[Thunder11]

I've personally always treated it as no intentionally going looking for the shuttle, but if you happen to be outside at the time and run into it, or follow an op back, it's fair game. Maybe a code solution would be better, let the ops move the shuttle remotely from the military PDA, so they can send it away, and call it back when needed.

[Screemonster]

The solution to the question is don't play like a selfish fun depriving subhuman.
I know it's hard to share the cake, but if you have to ask yourself or an admin if what you're doing is selfish and steals fun away from others, don't do it.

You bring a tear to my eye.

i know right wtf i like jmad now?

[Atlanta-Ned]

The solution to the question is don't play like a selfish fun depriving subhuman.
I know it's hard to share the cake, but if you have to ask yourself or an admin if what you're doing is selfish and steals fun away from others, don't do it.

You bring a tear to my eye.

i know right wtf i like jmad now?

[peoplearestrange]

What happened to just putting exterior turrets on the shuttle?

I've been told that you can apparently "out tank" these using brute patches. Which to me seems more like an issue with the turrets damage than much else.

[WarbossLincoln]

What happened to just putting exterior turrets on the shuttle?

Telesci happened.
Throwing maxcaps at the shuttle happened.
Borgs happened.

crazy fast self healing also is a thing. This guy was able to band aid through the machine guns long enough to get in.

I think an alternative solution to how shitty that gameplay is is to allow the nuke ops to detonate the station's self destruct terminal. It's more difficult than using the nuke, it gives the ops a second chance if some dickhead metas the nuke location and gets away with it, and the crew can defend it pretty well.

[peoplearestrange]

I think an alternative solution to how shitty that gameplay is is to allow the nuke ops to detonate the station's self destruct terminal. It's more difficult than using the nuke, it gives the ops a second chance if some dickhead metas the nuke location and gets away with it, and the crew can defend it pretty well.

I think that genuinely sounds like fun, or at least an interesting twist to try. Does mean double the amount of defensible objects (disc and terminal). We'd probably have to make the terminal indestructible, I believe in its current state you can remove it with pretty much any TTV bomb.

[WarbossLincoln]

I think an alternative solution to how shitty that gameplay is is to allow the nuke ops to detonate the station's self destruct terminal. It's more difficult than using the nuke, it gives the ops a second chance if some dickhead metas the nuke location and gets away with it, and the crew can defend it pretty well.

I think that genuinely sounds like fun, or at least an interesting twist to try. Does mean double the amount of defensible objects (disc and terminal). We'd probably have to make the terminal indestructible, I believe in its current state you can remove it with pretty much any TTV bomb.

I don't think you'd need a second disk, just allow the nuke code the Ops start with to trigger the station's terminal. And yeh it would need to be indestructible too. You could even have some nuke ops rounds randomly require you to use the station's terminal. They spawn without a nuke. There should otherwise be no indication for the crew that the ops will need to use the terminal.

[Slignerd]

I think requiring nuke ops to use the terminal is unnecessary, but I'd approve of the nuke and the self-destruct using the same code.

[Dr_bee]

Frankly I think counter attacking the nuke shuttle is an interesting play the crew can make, however tossing a maxcap or teleporting the bomb with telesci is boring as hell. Is it possible to make the shuttle walls block explosions? That way if you want to bomb the shuttle you will at least be required to somehow make your way inside it first.

I mean, the humiliating defeat condition exists in the code for when the crew nukes the syndie base, why have it if doing so would get you banned.

[WarbossLincoln]

Frankly I think counter attacking the nuke shuttle is an interesting play the crew can make, however tossing a maxcap or teleporting the bomb with telesci is boring as hell. Is it possible to make the shuttle walls block explosions? That way if you want to bomb the shuttle you will at least be required to somehow make your way inside it first.

I mean, the humiliating defeat condition exists in the code for when the crew nukes the syndie base, why have it if doing so would get you banned.

it's not a counter attack though. Most of the time it's some bored guy who flies to the shuttle locations, heals himself through machine guns with bandages, rcds a hole behind the nuke and pushes it into another z level. There's no fighting or anything, and it's nearly impossible to prevent short of an op standing in space watching the tile behind the nuke or hiding the nuke first.

[cedarbridge]

What happened to just putting exterior turrets on the shuttle?

I've been told that you can apparently "out tank" these using brute patches. Which to me seems more like an issue with the turrets damage than much else.

I believe these are the same turrets copy-pasted onto the Steel Rain drop pod so if we make the ship turrets stronger to fight people who shouldn't be fucking around where they are in the first place (and this still don't stop telesci/maxcap tossing) we'll have to find a way to adjust the drop pod turrets.

[danno]

the idea behind ops is defending against the operatives as they invade the station
searching out for the nukie shuttle to fuck with it is anti-fun

[Wyzack]

Give the nuke ops shuttle a ghost roll death robot or something that shuts down if it leaves the shuttle

[Iatots]

Bullet pathing is wierd and turrets are bad at shooting things close to themselves, because if they need to turn 90° from "rest" position, their bullets will start spawning on the adjacent walls and hit them.

[FantasticFwoosh]

> Looking for a unnannounced ops shuttle (disgusting validhunting) , memeing your way inside with telesci, exploiting healing mechanics (cryoxodone vapes & first aid spam) to get inside

- You got inside, what is your endgame since you can effectively just kill the ops instead, now you have a nukie ship, congrats but what does any of this achieve other than to loot what is in there for your powerboner

I mean if you want to make this easier or valid, give the ops shuttle a GPS co-ord.

> I've been bwoinked for even attempting to find a war-ops shuttle (i forget the exact circumstances it was a while ago just given a verbal warning which was fair since i got gunned to death, all i wanted to do was drop a teleporter beacon near the ship sneakily so we could ambush the ops on the way back or some half-wired plan across those lines) in the RD space suit, (edit - backpedalling a bit because i can't remember exactly how it happened, but it definitely involved a teleporter beacon in a attempt to get it inside or near the ship for return party surprise while the ops were busy tackling local station defences)

Those admins in the OP have screwed up BIG time.

---

I think i've even seen a successful 'return party' composed of sec before in observer but that might have been allowed by that particular admin at the time, not sure what the dialog was there. This is all circa late 2015 early 2016 kind of events. They nuked the syndicate base.

[Drynwyn]

Maybe just give the nukeops a deployable suitacase nuke they can carry with them if they want?

[PKPenguin321]

If the ops came in from southwest solars isn't it reasonable to search around southwest solars for their ship?

no, because spacing the nuke is lame as fuck and makes the round significantly less fun

[IcePacks]

just add roving gangs of grizzled syndrones patrolling the area with switchblades

EDIT: every round

EDIT 2: just, all the time

[FantasticFwoosh]

If the ops came in from southwest solars isn't it reasonable to search around southwest solars for their ship?

no, because spacing the nuke is lame as fuck and makes the round significantly less fun

Why don't you make the nuke unable to leave from the map edges? If it leaves it just bluespaces back into the vault or loops the station level again?

There is a coder alternative.

[Bombadil]

Frankly we should just make them detonate the vault nuke. Also ban anyone who bombs the vault nuke to destroy the station nuke.


Almost every nuke round I see people searching for the ops shuttle. Also everyone knows how to game the ops shuttle now. There are blind spots where you can weld in because the turrets can't hit you. Also... why is the shuttle now vulenerable to explosions and welding anyway?

[cedarbridge]

Frankly we should just make them detonate the vault nuke. Also ban anyone who bombs the vault nuke to destroy the station nuke.


Almost every nuke round I see people searching for the ops shuttle. Also everyone knows how to game the ops shuttle now. There are blind spots where you can weld in because the turrets can't hit you. Also... why is the shuttle now vulenerable to explosions and welding anyway?

Probably a product of making plastitanium smeltable.

[PKPenguin321]

If the ops came in from southwest solars isn't it reasonable to search around southwest solars for their ship?

no, because spacing the nuke is lame as fuck and makes the round significantly less fun

Why don't you make the nuke unable to leave from the map edges? If it leaves it just bluespaces back into the vault or loops the station level again?

There is a coder alternative.

why don't you just not be a bad person

[FantasticFwoosh]

Coders are the dike buffer between the flood of shit players trying to abuse the system, without patching it up the pressure cracks the wall allowing trickles of shitty behavior admins don't (and sometimes do) collect in buckets to throw back over into the rising murk. Hugbox is a inevitable destination unless the waters subside themselves because problems don't just go away without discouraging & playing hard ball with players.

Its virtually impossible to not be a bad person, because the players are inherently deviant minded.

[PKPenguin321]

Coders are the dike buffer between the flood of shit players trying to abuse the system, without patching it up the pressure cracks the wall allowing trickles of shitty behavior admins don't (and sometimes do) collect in buckets to throw back over into the rising murk. Hugbox is a inevitable destination unless the waters subside themselves because problems don't just go away without discouraging & playing hard ball with players.

Its virtually impossible to not be a bad person, because the players are inherently deviant minded.

banned

[FantasticFwoosh]

Coders are the dike buffer between the flood of shit players trying to abuse the system, without patching it up the pressure cracks the wall allowing trickles of shitty behavior admins don't (and sometimes do) collect in buckets to throw back over into the rising murk. Hugbox is a inevitable destination unless the waters subside themselves because problems don't just go away without discouraging & playing hard ball with players.

Its virtually impossible to not be a bad person, because the players are inherently deviant minded.

banned

You really know nothing about Netherland's water engineering do you?

Spoiler:

Reason for ban: Telling the truth.

[Nilons]

Why not make the station nuke usable but have it detonate if anyone tries to take it apart on a nuke ops round.

[Haevacht]

Coders are the dike buffer between the flood of shit players trying to abuse the system, without patching it up the pressure cracks the wall allowing trickles of shitty behavior admins don't (and sometimes do) collect in buckets to throw back over into the rising murk. Hugbox is a inevitable destination unless the waters subside themselves because problems don't just go away without discouraging & playing hard ball with players.

Its virtually impossible to not be a bad person, because the players are inherently deviant minded.

banned

wtf i like pkp now

[Bombadil]

I have the easiest fucking solution to this shit.


MAKE THE SHUTTLE INVULNERABLE AGAIN

[Qbopper]

I have the easiest fucking solution to this shit.


MAKE THE SHUTTLE INVULNERABLE AGAIN

isn't the issue here to do with grabbing the nuke, not blowing up the shuttle

[Bombadil]

I have the easiest fucking solution to this shit.


MAKE THE SHUTTLE INVULNERABLE AGAIN

isn't the issue here to do with grabbing the nuke, not blowing up the shuttle

You can't grab the nuke if you can't weld down the shuttle walls and the only enterance is covered in turrets and requires syndicate id access.



This is why stealing the nuke was never really an issue now that you can break in easy people do it all the fucking time now.

Metagamers tend to go in through the southeast portion of the ship because turret coverage is weak there and there is a blind spot. Then you weld into the side and make your way to the nuke

[lumipharon]

Even if you make the shuttle indestructable again, borgs can still beep boop their way in and space the nuke, or simply move the shuttle off the z-level.
This is pretty clearly some rule 1 level dickery - there are lots of situations where you can genuinely get to the shuttle, and have fun situations doing so, but it's spoiled by power gamers.

How about this, make the nuke start on the shuttle anchored by default? Because you need the nuke disk to unanchor the nuke (going to the shuttle to space the nuke while carrying the disk is both exceedingly shitty, and also risky because pinpointers), as long as borgs are expressly forbidden from moving the shuttle (and I presume telesci can't move an anchored object?), there is nothing the crew can do to remove the nuke except dropping a singulo on it, which is pretty hilarious in itself. Explosions don't destroy the nuke, right?

Being able to use the station nuke as a backup is also neat.