All access and security

[Slignerd]

Recently, as Captain, I had executed two people who I caught with all access upon my arrival - needless to say, not authorized by me, or the HoP. Afterwards, I was told that illegally acquired all access is not grounds for execution.

But on the other hand, when it comes to this and other greyshirt activities, cracking down on security for punishing them just allows incredibly disruptive players to thrive with no one ever daring to put the boot down. When you offer them a possibility of release, more often than not, they'll just get access again from their all access buddies and start the same shit again.

Crew acting like revolutionaries during a non-rev rounds seems to be given a pass, so we really shouldn't force command or security to hold back when that happens.

[J_Madison]

Post feedback criticising them, or open a complaint so that admin understands that unless they rule 0 you, they are not the law - server rules is the law.

[onleavedontatme]

Need more context

[Qbopper]

Need more context

We don't know how long the round had been going on, who the people with all access were, what they were doing with it, if anyone else had actually done anything about the problem when you weren't on, etc. etc.

"I latejoined and executed two people" isn't going to be enough for serious policy discussion and just makes you sound bad

[Slignerd]

It definitely wasn't more than half an hour into the round. It's recently generally a recurring scenario that when there's no roundstart Captain a greyshirt hacks into captain's office within the first 5 minutes of the shift, steals the spare, makes other people Captains in the dozens who then use it to tresspass into command, security or engineering and security is then forced to deal with the fallout, usually while other all access crew flowing in to disrupt them and release brigged prisoners.

My point is mostly that having all access out of nowhere and then using it to cause trouble - or generally causing trouble - should pretty much revoke any administrative protection you might have from security. It doesn't really matter whether or not you were the original thief when you're basically complicit and have nothing to say in your defense other than screaming "lings" or "shitcurity".

[imblyings]

wow

anyway what I meant was, security can see a problem where other players do not see one. Sometimes due to space law, sometimes because they view players being given all-access as a bad thing regardless of its impact to other, non-security, players.

[Nilons]

If admins think that minor ic crime is for sec to deal with then they need to loosen the leash on sec, why would I play sec so that I can get disarm spammed by every assistant I pass, terrified that if I arrest them Ill get bwoinked. This isn't a real example, just to illustrate a point. There needs to be wiggle room in sec if minor ic crime is for them to deal with.

[PKPenguin321]

If admins think that minor ic crime is for sec to deal with then they need to loosen the leash on sec, why would I play sec so that I can get disarm spammed by every assistant I pass, terrified that if I arrest them Ill get bwoinked. This isn't a real example, just to illustrate a point. There needs to be wiggle room in sec if minor ic crime is for them to deal with.

Just arrest them with a reasonable sentence instead of 1000 POINT GULAG or ON THE SPOT MURDER and maybe you wouldn't get bwoinked

[Slignerd]

Yeah, just give them 5 minutes so that after those 5 minutes they walk out and ask their buddies for all access again and rejoin the already overwhelming tide.

Security is forced to be reasonable, they are not.

[Nilons]

If admins think that minor ic crime is for sec to deal with then they need to loosen the leash on sec, why would I play sec so that I can get disarm spammed by every assistant I pass, terrified that if I arrest them Ill get bwoinked. This isn't a real example, just to illustrate a point. There needs to be wiggle room in sec if minor ic crime is for them to deal with.

Just arrest them with a reasonable sentence instead of 1000 POINT GULAG or ON THE SPOT MURDER and maybe you wouldn't get bwoinked

Executing two people who could have racked up as many counts of major trespass as there are places to trespass doesn't seem too out of left field to me though. Whenever I see another officer do something like you're describing I'll normally ahelp for the prisoner. But something like what was described originally warranting a bwoink would make me afraid to even give the HoP shit for handing out all access. Since if stealing it is not executable, is giving it out a 2 minute slap on the wrist? What about having it? Would I get bwoinked for taking away a greyshirts AA pass if the HoP gave him it? These are all hypotheticals but a lot of players are gonna just not bother with sec to avoid the hassle. If "minor" ic crime is gonna be alright I just think sec needs to be able to stretch their legs a bit more. Again, not saying it should be okay to execute for literal minor crimes but that the the bar for what garners a perma sentence or execution should be lowered a bit. Or put a major focus on borging people. If secborgs were put back in I'm sure sec would be much more inclined to keep people in the round that way.

[ShadowDimentio]

On one hand they might have been using all access to try and help the station, on the other all access is effectively holding every restricted item on the station if you'll just go get it. Just use your judgement if they were being tiding pieces of shit or not, and only execute them if they're repeatedly found with all access.

[Slignerd]

While that specific incident doesn't really seem that relevant, one of them was a Chaplain already reported tresspassing in places like Engineering and Tech Storage with "DEUS VULT" as his title and nothing to say but "security kidnapping me", and the other pulled out a screwdriver in response to a few punches, all ready to stab eyes out. Good riddance to both of them, though I'm starting to regret I did not behead them, seeing as that allowed another all access person to go to education chamber, grab the corpses, and clone them.

It's incredibly rare to see any all access person ever actually help the station as opposed to just looting everything they can - or at least, to see them help anyone but other troublemakers.

[Lazengann]

>7 players at round start
>all access is distributed so the assistant and scientist can wire solars and fix things because fuck it it's lowpop
>things go just fine
>half an hour later captain latejoins and murders the assistant and scientist
Yeah no.

You can't just kill people for having all access. You can, however, kill them if they're being a nuisance and looting everything.

[Slignerd]

Perhaps the solution to that is to not have your title set as Captain (which frankly, makes you look like an usurper), leave the spare in the locker once you're done and explain the situation to the Captain as opposed to calling them a condom.

[Lazengann]

It sounds like you were a condom

[Slignerd]

And it sounds like you are usually nowhere as civil about your access as you try to present yourself as.

[Lazengann]

I was not in the round

[Slignerd]

Then why do you think up some downright fake situations where greyshirts were all heroic and innocent and did nothing wrong, but it all came crashing when the evil condom captain arrived and dared touch them and their shiny Captain card? I suggested the way in which their actions would be acceptable, and then your response was just calling me a "condom" - showing you act nothing like this in game.

[Lazengann]

Because you made a thread complaining it isn't okay to murder people for having all access

[Slignerd]

> 7 players at round start
> be a wizard
> choose to pick staff of healing and help the crew
> things go just fine
> half an hour later, security arrives and kills the wizard
Yeah no.

Dunno. Shitty greentext story like your original post and like my parody of it - it's just hardly an argument. It only exists to paint whoever you don't like in a bad light. Much like antags are dangerous and thus valid, crew with all access are often about as disruptive as antags, and just as much as of a danger.

[cedarbridge]

I have little love or patience for that assistant/clown/mime who breaks into the captain's office every round at roundstart. Sometimes with a captain present, especially if there isn't one.

[Nilons]

I have little love or patience for that assistant/clown/mime who breaks into the captain's office every round at roundstart. Sometimes with a captain present, especially if there isn't one.

I've actually died as captain because this is so normal, a botanist broke into my room at round start and I didn't even bat an eye for the first 7 seconds he was there, basically expected it. Then he pulled out a traitor revolver and domied me. Not anyone but my own fault for gettin dunked but it's so common for someone to break into caps room it's might as well be scheduled.

[Lazengann]

I actually agree with this thread but only provided the person is being a nuisance

[cedarbridge]

I actually agree with this thread but only provided the person is being a nuisance

If you're breaking in for the spare and handing out access to yourself or others, you're a nuisance.

[Lazengann]

Yeah

[Qbopper]

I have little love or patience for that assistant/clown/mime who breaks into the captain's office every round at roundstart. Sometimes with a captain present, especially if there isn't one.

the best part is when they ahelp getting dunked

[cedarbridge]

I have little love or patience for that assistant/clown/mime who breaks into the captain's office every round at roundstart. Sometimes with a captain present, especially if there isn't one.

the best part is when they ahelp getting dunked

- AdminHelp marked as IC issue! -
Losing is part of the game!
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

[BeeSting12]

I can assure you that you will get at least 1000 points in gulag if I catch you with all access you stole or got from anyone besides me, the HoP, or captain. And honestly, I'll yell at the captain and demote the HoP if I catch either giving out all access. Pretty sure the policy on stealing the capt's ID roundstart is valid- under space law, their crimes certainly make them valid. I usually can't even gulag people with all access because their tide buds will break them out, which is why I lean towards execution and borging after subverting the AI to security's side.

[IcePacks]

hey fam you've got a permabrig and a gulag

try those for shitters and you'll get in less trouble

[BeeSting12]

hey fam you've got a permabrig and a gulag

try those for imperfect people playing an imperfect game and you'll get in less trouble

why should we have to accommodate shitters? act like you want to get taken out of the round with your shittery, and you will

[IcePacks]

you literally just toss them in a not-cloner and punch some buttons on the console

i've removed shitters by giving them one point

[cedarbridge]

you literally just toss them in a not-cloner and punch some buttons on the console

i've removed imperfect people playing an imperfect game by giving them one point

Its more satisfying to throw them and their contraband ID out an airlock.

[BeeSting12]

yes and I would do that, but the all access niggers tend to get pissed their metabud's getting gulagged and run to rescue him. and ^ to what cedar said

[IcePacks]

you literally just toss them in a not-cloner and punch some buttons on the console

i've removed imperfect people playing an imperfect game by giving them one point

Its more satisfying to throw them and their contraband ID out an airlock.

"satisfactory" is a slippery slope, much like killing a shitter and making a martyr of them

for examples, see: my headban, most of my head rounds before that, the topic subject

[BeeSting12]

you literally just toss them in a not-cloner and punch some buttons on the console

i've removed imperfect people playing an imperfect game by giving them one point

Its more satisfying to throw them and their contraband ID out an airlock.

"satisfactory" is a slippery slope, much like killing a imperfect person playing an imperfect game and making a martyr of them

for examples, see: my headban, most of my head rounds before that, the topic subject

didn't you get headbanned for antimovving the AI as a "social experiment"? it's kinda two different things to essentially kill the whole crew and kill a few people who stole valuable items.

[IcePacks]

i was indeed headbanned for uploading a law that told the ai ad verbatim to go rogue, which entails killing everyone, but it was done with the intent of a last stand against the gangsters on the station and had the secondary goal of driving the gangsters to kill or get killed by the ai.

killing a shitter outright can lead to a mutiny in the same capacity and can lead to you doing the same shit: killing a bunch of people. just use the gulag! it's easier!

[BeeSting12]

yes but which is funner? huge tide riot or beep boop gulag.

[TheNightingale]

yes but which is funner? huge tide riot or beep boop gulag.

Beep boop gulag, huge tide riots are only fun for the rioters.

[D&B]

>Not blasting E1M1 while you and your sec officers mow down the tiders that assault the brig whilst the AI and borgs lose their shit at all the law 2 breaking.

Tsk tsk

[IcePacks]

yes but which is funner? huge tide riot or beep boop gulag.

hear me out! you can still have fun watching the prisoners kill each other on the cameras, chilling in your chair, enjoying NOT having to do anything about them there, with the knowledge that you didn't possibly incite a bloody civil war and get crewmen and security officers killed, AND there's no possibility of you getting bwoinked and/or banned!

[PKPenguin321]

@op try stunning them, asking why they have all access, and taking it away if it's illegitimate instead of murdermurdermurder maybe

[PKPenguin321]

i really don't think this warrants even discussing, you should be able to respond reasonably to specific crimes. sec is about thinking on your feet, and while that can mean murder, it also very often does not. no real specific ruling really can or should be made on this.
tempted to lock, other headmins please chime in.

[Incomptinence]

If you want to claim the title of defacto captain act like it. We have very low standards for captain and you can't even meet those in the middle of your robot like tiding algorithm?

Lel lel all access dispenser should be dunked like a bad hop. A group of them in cahoots like here is in all ways but the the antag status a revolution.

Perma and wait to ambush their silent rescuer would be a better option however.

[BeeSting12]

yes but which is funner? huge tide riot or beep boop gulag.

hear me out! you can still have fun watching the prisoners kill each other on the cameras, chilling in your chair, enjoying NOT having to do anything about them there, with the knowledge that you didn't possibly incite a bloody civil war and get crewmen and security officers killed, AND there's no possibility of you getting bwoinked and/or banned!

reminds me of the time i sent a maxcap to gulag as warden to help with mining... they blew themselves up.

yes but which is funner? huge tide riot or beep boop gulag.

Beep boop gulag, huge tide riots are only fun for the rioters.

so rev rounds are always fun for the revs? wrong! i personally love rev rounds as HoS.

[Cobby]

If you want to give people protection from being killed when they're dicks IC, you have to make sure they are unable to retaliate when they are trashed on justifiably but not killed.

See: Our current "escalation policy" which people don't like to touch but also don't really like [?]

Honestly if someone just starts messing with your stuff I don't think it should be the player's duty to keep them in the round, especially since there ARE ways to still play the game postmortem [unless you're banned from those, which sucks for you].
...
I guess the issue is that we're stuck between "minor IC crime is obnoxious" and "Minor conflict is pivotal in rounds to act as a distraction to antag activities and keep rounds interesting where antags are making it feel like pseudoextended".

Basically we're at a point where If you're above the "grey[tide] area" you will be banned, and if you're below the "grey[tide] area" you are "protected" in terms of other players having to deal with your shitty-but-not-yet-deemed-bannable behavior numerous times and the other guys risks being killed depending on how they escalate the conflict before they can get you out of their hair.

[oranges]

t so that admin understands that unless they rule 0 you, they are not the law - server rules is the law.

This is not true, admins have always had the ability to enforce the rules at their discretion

[Nilons]

If you want to give people protection from being killed when they're dicks IC, you have to make sure they are unable to retaliate when they are trashed on justifiably but not killed.

See: Our current "escalation policy" which people don't like to touch but also don't really like [?]

Honestly if someone just starts messing with your stuff I don't think it should be the player's duty to keep them in the round, especially since there ARE ways to still play the game postmortem [unless you're banned from those, which sucks for you].
...
I guess the issue is that we're stuck between "minor IC crime is obnoxious" and "Minor conflict is pivotal in rounds to act as a distraction to antag activities and keep rounds interesting where antags are making it feel like pseudoextended".

Basically we're at a point where If you're above the "grey[tide] area" you will be banned, and if you're below the "grey[tide] area" you are "protected" in terms of other players having to deal with your shitty-but-not-yet-deemed-bannable behavior numerous times and the other guys risks being killed depending on how they escalate the conflict before they can get you out of their hair.

To be fair every time I've been killed by some dickhead for arresting them, where they basically forced me to arrest them then used it as an excuse to kill me I've ahelped and admins were sympathetic. So I don't think being removed from the round for nonlethally punishing the tide is a major fear people should have. In my experience as long as sec has kept it nonlethal I've never had an admin tell me that them killing me or otherwise removing me from the round was valid.

[WarbossLincoln]

When you have tide problems just go to the gulag and dismantle the shuttle console. Leave a bunch of supplies, tools, and food there. Dismantle the station side console when you get back. Start using the tele gulag to dump assholes onto lavaland. Let them build what they will and watch things get all Lord of the Flies.

[TheColdTurtle]

They will just cross the lava with a wall and escape to the mining station.

[CPTANT]

Stealing the Captains and HoP's ID is listed under capital crimes.

If you have all access you have stolen the same thing.