Indirectly helping antags in station vs antags situation

[Kelenius]

The situation being confirmed nuke ops, malf, blob, wizard, things like that. I sometimes meet people who, in a situation like that, instead of helping the people who are fighting the antags, or at least not getting in their way, act as if nothing happened and actively hinder with the crew.

I could give some examples, such as captain and warden tasing people who were breaking into medbay storage after the AI went delta because they were 'trespassing and breaking in', HoP who, when security officers and chaplain asked for additional access asked them to fill the papers in a confirmed cult (by the moment it finished, they summoned nar'sie), security officer who kept two people in a prison after nuke ops were confirmed, refused to release them, and refused to give out weapons, and then when someone tased him to take his ID, permaed the guy.

While teeeeeeechnically they are following the space law/roleplaying/'why should I assume there are no other antags'/whatever else reason they can come up with, it is, in my opinion, seriously breaking the rule 1.

Should this be allowed or bannable?

[Cipher3]

captain and warden tasing people who were breaking into medbay storage after the AI went delta because they were 'trespassing and breaking in'

This is really bad.

HoP who, when security officers and chaplain asked for additional access asked them to fill the papers in a confirmed cult

Cruel, inefficient, bureaucratic. Awful to deal with, part of his job.

security officer who kept two people in a prison after nuke ops were confirmed, refused to release them

He's not arresting them for being antags. If the reason's valid, he can leave them there. They did commit a perma'able offense most likely in the first 5-10 minutes of the round depending on the speed of the nuke ops.

[Kelenius]

security officer who kept two people in a prison after nuke ops were confirmed, refused to release them

He's not arresting them for being antags. If the reason's valid, he can leave them there. They did commit a perma'able offense most likely in the first 5-10 minutes of the round depending on the speed of the nuke ops.

They were in the cells. He refused to release them from the cells.

[Alex Crimson]

I think those examples are fine. Just because the antag type has been confirmed doesnt mean you need to become a powergaming antag-hunter and break all the normal station rules in an attempt to "win". The one thing id do differently is rather than letting those people break into med storage, id get the kits for them instead.

[Ikarrus]

security officer who kept two people in a prison after nuke ops were confirmed, refused to release them, and refused to give out weapons, and then when someone tased him to take his ID, permaed the guy.

Let's see what's really wrong here...
-What confirms a nuke game mode? Red space suits? People screaming in the radio? No way they could be wrong!
-Nuke game mode? Then there must be no traitors
-No traitors mean all criminals are automatically released because antags are the only people security should persecute
-That security officer is doing his job instead of doing the above! Better use force to steal his and his department's things!
-ADMINHELP: Help shitcurity perma'd me for trying to take his ID because
he wouldn't immediately release prisoners and arm them to fight the antags!

Basically, everything you describe in the OP is an IC issue. Metagaming the game mode to go full powergaming mode is shitty and is exactly the kind of behavior admins try to discourage.

[paprika]

Station vs antags situations should always at least a little promote some kind of unspoken camaraderie between the crew but it usually ends up with everyone being too sour to work together against the blob/nuke ops/malf. 'indirectly' helping antags like running into borgers or blowing up welding tanks is truly terrible. Additionally, just because there's big looming threats doesn't mean all roleplay should be abandoned.

What are they going to say? "HOP GIVE ME ALL ACCESS ITS MALF!!!!"

Come on. It's not indirectly helping antags to keep shitters out of medbay storage if they don't have the access. If they want medical supplies they can ask nicely or play doctor. Even in situations like this you have to roleplay, even if it's a big bummer and 'teeeeechnically' IC, you shitter.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

People do not let me go full play-to-win validhunt no greentext 4u

Should this be allowed or bannable?

This is exactly how OP feels. While it can go over the top, like arresting someone trying to get medicine, you cannot blame people for staying in their bureaucratic/extremely lawful character.

At no point it should be bannable fucking ever.

[peoplearestrange]

and then when someone tased him to take his ID, permaed the guy.

It's a pretty shitty thing to do to tase someone to take there ID simply because they're doing something you disagree with.
I'd definatly side with the HOS in this situation.

While the HoP not increasing the security access is pretty stupid and shitty its still a roleplaying game (to an extent). Everyone has roles to fill, if some random assistant becomes a bad ass sec in all but name because "nuke ops confirmed" then I think we're moving away from that element and becoming very meta very quickly IMO. Though I really wouldn't go as far as bay an say things like BWOINK"your an assistant how do you know how to use a gun?" or any of that crap.

It's about balance I guess is what I'm saying.

[Kelenius]

So when I am trying to talk about a problem in general, you are telling me how I was wrong about giving you one of the examples, without knowing specific details.

I do not have anything against the roleplay. This is not roleplay. This is intentionally being a prick and using roleplay as an excuse.

Do you really that in a situation when the AI is confirmed to be rogue, the station's self-destruct mechanism is activated, and a lot of doors are shocked, leading to many burns, stunning and lazering people who break into medical storage to get medicine, because medbay is in total chaos, and sleepers are not working is good roleplay? Especially if people die as a result?

What about permabrigging for a non-capital crime without captain's permission, which is required by the space law when warden and HoS are absent, without saying a single word in the process, is what you'd call roleplaying an extremely lawful character. The nuke ops were confirmed by the AI being dead and cyborgs, and then multiple people reporting them, plus there have been explosions, IIRC. "There are hostiles on the station who are going to blow up the whole station? Nah, I'm going to guard this clown in a cell." - do you think that this is good roleplay?

"We’re all here to have a good time. If you’re intentionally trying to ruin everyone else’s good time..." - tell me how I am a play-to-win powergaming validhunter for being zapped into red health by the AI and wanting an ointment from medbay, or by coming to brig and asking our only security officer to arm up people and go fight the nuke ops, and not wanting to spend the rest of the round in a 2x3 cell and then dying in a nuclear explosion.

To emphasise on this again, I don't have anything against the roleplay, if it's good roleplay, and not just being as much of a dick as possible and then saying "I was roleplaying, you all are play-to-win validhunting shitters" when asked "why did you do it?"

[Alex Crimson]

I do not think they are being assholes intentionally. Like you say, the place is in chaos, its easy to get caught up in the moment and do silly things, even in a game.

If they are breaking space law by permabrigging someone as you say, then they are in the wrong and should be dealt with accordingly. However things like not giving out guns or all-access because its malf AI, Blob or Nuke Ops? Stuff like that is completely fine imo.

[Spacemanspark]

I utterly refuse, as HoP, to hand out all access to anyone, despite it being blob/ malf/ nuke ops. Though I will extend a bit of access, it's utterly rediculous to go, "Oh snap, nuke ops, better hand out all access.".
Also, people with all access in blob rounds? I see a lot of people raid EVA, say , "Screw you, guys." And jump into space (Although I can see why, and it's tempting.).
Nuke Ops? Oh, ya, let's just raid the armoury, and then go die in glorious combat, giving the Ops our all access ID's and an armoury.
Malf? Same as blob.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

tell me how I am a play-to-win powergaming validhunter

You think that everyone must do everything to "win" the game and if they don't or if they don't let you do it, they should be banned. It's pretty simple.

Like I said, there are bad examples of this, like medical storage thing, but those are probably people who are not very experienced in the game. Have you considered that they might not know exactly what's happening?

[Ikarrus]

It's not just the one example I have an issue with, it's all of them, along with the fundamental idea behind your complaint. As far as I'm concerned, all of these are IC issues that need to be dealt IC instead of coming to admins when other people aren't as p2w as you.

What about permabrigging for a non-capital crime without captain's permission, which is required by the space law when warden and HoS are absent, without saying a single word in the process, is what you'd call roleplaying an extremely lawful character. The nuke ops were confirmed by the AI being dead and cyborgs, and then multiple people reporting them, plus there have been explosions, IIRC. "There are hostiles on the station who are going to blow up the whole station? Nah, I'm going to guard this clown in a cell." - do you think that this is good roleplay?

If the permabrigging was unwarranted, they should adminhelp it and we would look into it. It has nothing and should have nothing to do with "the game mode is nuke ops, thus traitors do not exist". To release everyone just to "win" is awful behavior I will never stand for. The guy could be in there for being a griefing shit for all we know.

Security exists to maintain order, not just hunt antagonists.

Forgoing roleplay just to win, or playing-2-win, are not valid playstyles and never will be. Anyone who consistently does this will get dunked.

[Cipher3]

So when I am trying to talk about a problem in general, you are telling me how I was wrong about giving you one of the examples, without knowing specific details.

The problem being you're trying to address a problem when most of the situations you actually listed aren't a problem. It's hard to support stopping perfectly valid IC situations.

[callanrockslol]

I utterly refuse, as HoP, to hand out all access to anyone, despite it being blob/ malf/ nuke ops. Though I will extend a bit of access, it's utterly rediculous to go, "Oh snap, nuke ops, better hand out all access.".
Also, people with all access in blob rounds? I see a lot of people raid EVA, say , "Screw you, guys." And jump into space (Although I can see why, and it's tempting.).
Nuke Ops? Oh, ya, let's just raid the armoury, and then go die in glorious combat, giving the Ops our all access ID's and an armoury.
Malf? Same as blob.

Malf is different, you really need to give out access to obscure APCs so people can trash them otherwise everybody dies horrible.

Nuke ops its best to wait for sec to get rekt and borrow their stuff.