Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

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Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Massa100 » Thu May 11, 2017 3:01 am #291979

I'll preface this by saying the emergency shuttle is for emergencies. Mass bombings, overrun xeno infestations, a wild syndicate nuke team slaughtering is shuttle call worthy.

"Cult", "Traitors", and "Xenos" should NEVER be considered emergencies. Especially when they're just discovered at round start for what ever reason. We have departments WELL equipped to deal with all manner of threats and problems. Running from them at first sight is stupid and annoying and detracts from SS13. The point of the game is to be confronted with situation changing events and respond in an appropriate manner. Running away and resetting the round is a stupid response to that. Until those problems become so extreme that there's no other way out, that is.

Even from an RP standpoint, this multi-billion dollar station should at least be protected by the security crew, and common staff, if need be, right? With the exception of antags calling, "Holla Holla get Dolla" is not a good shuttle call and I think it should land a head a jobban or send the shuttle back with a heavy timer on it.

I've even seen admins adminbus shuttle delays because security called it at the first sign of a cult antag and they didn't want to see a good round recycled so fast.

In short, I'm reccomending a policy change with regards to shuttle calls here. Shuttles should be for extreme damage to the station, extremely extenuating circumstances (rampant plasma fires, an all powerful cargo traitor, megafauna, I dunno). We shouldn't have shuttle calls because someone saw a xeno, or a cult. All available methods should be put to the test before the shuttle call goes through.

Why even play and get antag and then just leave because the CMO got bored when he didn't roll antag 20 minutes in?



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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Qbopper » Thu May 11, 2017 3:08 am #291985

It's tough to force a policy on shuttle calls because sometimes extenuating circumstances make sense

If the round has been going on for 4 hours and nothing is happening it's probably safe to call the shuttle (assuming the crew is okay with it, but in a hilarious case like this they most certainly will be), and sometimes the station goes to shit INCREDIBLY quick

it's really difficult to find a good balance for what is and isn't acceptable calling of the shuttle, and I think we're going to have to continue to do what we currently do (and you mentioned) - if an admin notices a shuttle call is far too early, they'll often delay it/etc.

granted someone could post about why I'm wrong/a good idea, but unless someone can actually describe the exact proposed policy this thread will go nowhere
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Nilons » Thu May 11, 2017 3:09 am #291986

I agree, shuttles are called way to early and way to lax. Half of engineering's job is to fix the station but they never get to because he second 2 fucking tiles go missing a greytider breaks into the bridge and calls the shuttle. Forcing people to actually deal with the problems in a round instead of surviving until the shuttle shows up would make the game a lot more fun.

Edit: People's arguments in this thread have swayed me nevermind
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Massa100 » Thu May 11, 2017 3:15 am #291988

Qbopper wrote:It's tough to force a policy on shuttle calls because sometimes extenuating circumstances make sense

If the round has been going on for 4 hours and nothing is happening it's probably safe to call the shuttle (assuming the crew is okay with it, but in a hilarious case like this they most certainly will be), and sometimes the station goes to shit INCREDIBLY quick

it's really difficult to find a good balance for what is and isn't acceptable calling of the shuttle, and I think we're going to have to continue to do what we currently do (and you mentioned) - if an admin notices a shuttle call is far too early, they'll often delay it/etc.

granted someone could post about why I'm wrong/a good idea, but unless someone can actually describe the exact proposed policy this thread will go nowhere

Shuttles should operate as they do currently without admins (on lowpop and weird times). With admins, and I know you guys hate doing stuff, there should be a number of pre-defined shuttle calls that are vague (Engine destroyed, extreme structural damage, extreme hostile presence, other that is explained with input etc). Security should be expended, as should the Engineer's efforts and cargo's vast access to things that NEVER get purchased. We never see deathsquads because the only time they're needed isn't reachable because people call shuttle at the sight of Lamar.

From those shuttle calls, the admins verify how screwed the station is and centcomm sends back a "Deal with it, you have a full security staff and guns.) or something along those lines, declining the call. Again, this makes you guys have to work and that sucks.

But that's only for high pop, certain measures can be put in for 4 hour night rounds where the miners are effectively gods, maybe a timer, and admin-less circumstances that just operate as they do now.

I do know that finding a rune in maintenance is not a good shuttle call. It's not fun to leave because the game happened. We play for antags and extenuating circumstances, but for some reason (and it's only the people who play heads exclusively, won't throw out names), we are supposed to run from them instead of even TRY to solve them.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby D&B » Thu May 11, 2017 3:21 am #291994

Security is shit enough to play as is, and some gamemodes are a losing battle the longer the round goes on. This is because sec is designed to be able to match the pace of antags but not progress beyond them.

Thus you get into the situation where you know as sec or a head everyone will be fucked in the ass sooner or later. And while you can rally forces and weapons and try to fight say, cults or lings, as Mulligan's keep rolling the most exhausted first are those masochistic enough to take chances trying to shepherd cats, but not masochistic enough to remain a target that only gets weaker and weaker comparatively as time goes on.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Screemonster » Thu May 11, 2017 3:22 am #291995

Just set a line that's "you can call it at this point but be prepared to splain yourself to the admins if they ask you why you called it at only 20 minutes and nothing is on fire"

Reminded of the time I latejoined as CE an a HRP server and was immediately told "the supermatter exploded"
my first response was "oh cool, time to build us a motherfucking engine"
I was then told "the shuttle's already called and past the point of no return" to which my response was roughly "you fucking PUSSIES"

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Qbopper » Thu May 11, 2017 3:24 am #291996

Massa100 wrote:I know you guys hate doing stuff

Again, this makes you guys have to work and that sucks.


please don't say this shit, even as a joke

we do this out of love for the game and a desire to make the server a better place to be - "admins don't do anything"/"admins hate doing shit" is really frustrating to see and makes me NOT want to bother doing shit, because it feels like people just take everything admins do for granted

I'm probably alone in this reaction to some extent and it's not like hearing this makes me want to cry and give up on video games forever but it's pretty disheartening when it seems like the playerbase doesn't seem to believe that we want to do anything at all

we don't necessarily like dealing with drama or braindead ahelps, but I think most of the admins don't mind doing admin work (and if they do they usually take a break)

rant aside:

Massa100 wrote:With admins, and I know you guys hate doing stuff, there should be a number of pre-defined shuttle calls that are vague (Engine destroyed, extreme structural damage, extreme hostile presence, other that is explained with input etc). Security should be expended, as should the Engineer's efforts and cargo's vast access to things that NEVER get purchased. We never see deathsquads because the only time they're needed isn't reachable because people call shuttle at the sight of Lamar.

From those shuttle calls, the admins verify how screwed the station is and centcomm sends back a "Deal with it, you have a full security staff and guns.) or something along those lines, declining the call. Again, this makes you guys have to work and that sucks.

But that's only for high pop, certain measures can be put in for 4 hour night rounds where the miners are effectively gods, maybe a timer, and admin-less circumstances that just operate as they do now.

I do know that finding a rune in maintenance is not a good shuttle call. It's not fun to leave because the game happened. We play for antags and extenuating circumstances, but for some reason (and it's only the people who play heads exclusively, won't throw out names), we are supposed to run from them instead of even TRY to solve them.


I'm not 100% certain if this needs a policy change or not - I dislike early calls as much as the next guy but trying to force it into the rules seems like a bad idea, since we already do similar stuff on our own

Granted every time I post in policy discussion threads kor/someone else comes in and explains how retarded I am, so I'd wait for some other opinions
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Massa100 » Thu May 11, 2017 3:27 am #291999

Qbopper wrote:snib

I said that because I ahelped one time reccomending this (in fewer words) and was told exactly "admins don't like doing stuff."

sorry i hurt ur feeling sthough i didn' tmean to

To the meat of what you said, though, I very much do think it's required. I've only ever seen admins interfere two or three times, and I play a lot. It's not a frequent thing and really is disheartening when some jerk off gets outed by trying to go rambo cult and you have 4 minutes as a clocky to raise an army and wait out the 6 minute summon timer, let alone get the ape-people to actually stand near you.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Qbopper » Thu May 11, 2017 3:44 am #292008

well, like I said, I'm just one guy, and I haven't been on in a little while so for all I know the early calls have gotten out of hand

also the rant was more in general because i've been seeing people shittalk the admins a lot for no apparent reason and it's frustrating, probably shouldn't have taken it out on you
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Armhulen » Thu May 11, 2017 4:53 am #292033

Rule 0kan makes a good point about security, they should be way stronger than antags in the start and that advantage should go away (and actually give antags the advantage at one point) as the game continues.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu May 11, 2017 7:20 am #292074

Stop adding modes where

-The antagonists grow exponentialy more numerous

-The antagonists grow exponentialy more powerful

-The antagonists are actively trying to avoid you while this happens (Do I search for the tiny room full of cult farming equipment exactly 7 tiles from the z level edge or do I just leave?)

-The antagonists eventually disable or significantly delay the shuttle if I dont leave preemptively

-There is a big binary win/loss condition where I and all my friends die and OOC whines at sec for being bad


And then I still stop evacuating early. If things are unbalanced and unfun for the stressed group who also controls when the round ends the round is going to end, and banning them for it means they'll just stop playing security.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu May 11, 2017 7:22 am #292075

I agree bailing out at the first sign of traitors is lame, but the long nature of the shuttle timer means you have to leave before the crisis actually starts in team modes or you arent going to get to leave at all.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby DrPillzRedux » Thu May 11, 2017 8:50 am #292105

There is nothing worse than a Captain/HoP/Whoever that refuses to call the shuttle, and if someone else calls it, recalls it and then brigs them forever when there's holes in the station, the powergrid is fucked, cultists are spreading, and many other things that mean it's time to cut your losses and go.

I would much rather have a pre-emptive shuttle than one that doesn't get called for hours when things are fucked.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu May 11, 2017 9:06 am #292111

Also your reward for staying and somehow hunting down every last cultist hiding on lavaland is...

...getting to call the shuttle anyway! Either that or you just killed for the crime of existing in a round with no antagonists left such as viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3788&view=unread#p285161

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby CPTANT » Thu May 11, 2017 9:15 am #292117

I would be very interested in a fixed shuttle time trial.

See what happens if the shuttle is always called after 45 minutes or so and can't be manually called/recalled.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby D&B » Thu May 11, 2017 12:39 pm #292143

If you're gonna put a time trial then at least disable Mulligan's.

If the round became extended when the threat is neutralized then maybe people would put more effort into it. But there's no point in staying after, say, killing the wizard when everyone is armed with magic/guns and now tc.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Qbopper » Thu May 11, 2017 12:47 pm #292149

the problem with the shuttle is as kor says, it's tied into how a lot of the gamemodes work

if you don't call it when cult is confirmed odds are you're not going to leave at all, and that means the cult "wins"

I hate that type of gamemode because it means people don't try to create interesting stories (aka the reason I and many others got into the game at all), they just want to kill the antags then start a new round
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby ohnopigeons » Thu May 11, 2017 1:13 pm #292160

The shuttle is already min-capped at 20 minutes, and this is already extremely annoying because round-ending events that completely render the station inoperable pre 20-min happens more often than you think. What more do you want? It would be preferable to have admins rule on Captains/Heads who call the shuttle but this is admittedly administratively difficult. Instead the admins/coders have been looking towards code solutions to the round-length problem, which IMO is a solution that's worse than the problem (this is why singularity got removed for the SM).

The other point Kor has already made about conversion game modes, which is where I suspect most of the salt about early shuttle calls comes from (conversion antags mad that they couldn't do any of their objectives or engage in substantial team antag gameplay), from my experience. As has been said before, unlimited conversion antags are exponentially powerful and either sec must go Hitler and shut them down early, or go for the softer solutions which is to call the shuttle as soon as possible.

However team antags already have a counter to the latter: build your own comms console and recall the shuttle with someone's Head access. There are numerous ways for team antags to accomplish this and it is their fault if they fail to pay any mind to this reasonable task.

I admit that Xenos don't have this ability but they are powerful enough that they can shrug off this handicap.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby BeeSting12 » Thu May 11, 2017 1:54 pm #292171

I agree with this thread, but at some point, the shuttle has to be called on a conversion based round- and better sooner than later for security. I usually make a good effort to take down the cult, and if they are still winning despite security's best efforts, it's time to call it. That's usually for blood cult though- for clock cult, they get smashed and then I have to call the shuttle since security is in full nazi mode hunting down the cult (as they should be) which isn't fun for anyone else. On a wizard round, it should honestly end when the wizard dies, but it doesn't, so it needs to be called before you have antagonists running about the place with the armory, pulse rifles, and meme magic.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby CPTANT » Thu May 11, 2017 2:28 pm #292176

ohnopigeons wrote:The shuttle is already min-capped at 20 minutes, and this is already extremely annoying because round-ending events that completely render the station inoperable pre 20-min happens more often than you think. What more do you want? It would be preferable to have admins rule on Captains/Heads who call the shuttle but this is admittedly administratively difficult. Instead the admins/coders have been looking towards code solutions to the round-length problem, which IMO is a solution that's worse than the problem (this is why singularity got removed for the SM).

The other point Kor has already made about conversion game modes, which is where I suspect most of the salt about early shuttle calls comes from (conversion antags mad that they couldn't do any of their objectives or engage in substantial team antag gameplay), from my experience. As has been said before, unlimited conversion antags are exponentially powerful and either sec must go Hitler and shut them down early, or go for the softer solutions which is to call the shuttle as soon as possible.

However team antags already have a counter to the latter: build your own comms console and recall the shuttle with someone's Head access. There are numerous ways for team antags to accomplish this and it is their fault if they fail to pay any mind to this reasonable task.

I admit that Xenos don't have this ability but they are powerful enough that they can shrug off this handicap.


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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Wyzack » Thu May 11, 2017 2:42 pm #292179

Jesus this thread title

This has been discussed to death a billion times before but what Kor said basically outlines the crux of the matter, combined with the fact that people can either stay and get kill rolled by conversion antags or end the round and re-roll for antag themself, grief lottery ect

We had a PR to add a longer limit on shuttle calls but i guess enough thumbsdowns meant it never got anywhere.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Massa100 » Thu May 11, 2017 2:56 pm #292186

Kor wrote:Also your reward for staying and somehow hunting down every last cultist hiding on lavaland is...

...getting to call the shuttle anyway! Either that or you just killed for the crime of existing in a round with no antagonists left such as viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3788&view=unread#p285161

The way you talk you really don't want to solve the problems or play the game, you want to run from the game and see that delicious bar of green text that said "You win!" and get a cookie for it.

That's not fun to us. Security has tasers. Cultists have swords.

As for the "long nature of the shuttle call", 10 minutes on SS13 isn't a long time at all. Especially not as a cultist who is already crippled by having two idiots for teammates and now has to solo/duo a cult round. Space bases are really, really weak though and should also face admin discretion.

A lot of people are missing the main point: SS13 is about problems, not winning. Fix the problems. Don't run because there are a few hull breeches and a rat chewed a wire.

As for cosmic's point, I have no idea why anyone would think it's more fun to escape an antag than fight it. It's so soul crushing to see the ONE xeno round in a month get cancelled early because of a shuttle call. 10 minutes isn't a long time. 5 minutes into the call usually means the round is over for most antags and they don't even try to win.

Security is extremely powerful, even in the face of a developed cult threat. Not xenos, but then again I haven't seen a Deathsquad in YEARS, when years ago I saw them every few days. That was golden.

Most antags that people run from instantly are going to force a round end regardless, Kor. Pre-emptive leaving does nothing but makes clockies throw in the towel by the time 4 minutes on the call have passed. Traitors sabotage the shuttle, cultists delay with IC things because of how liberal the abuse of the shuttle currently is.

if you guys don't want to fix the problems go play a hugbox HRP server, /tg/'s nature has always been very contrarian to that mentality

also you guys seem to hate long rounds. what gives? is this griefstation? I get the hopline suicide culture we have, but forcing rounds to end 45 minutes in is just kind of stupid and boring.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Wyzack » Thu May 11, 2017 3:00 pm #292187

Kor is not talking necessarily about himself, just player attitudes in general. I have played security in dozens of cult and rev rounds, and while you get the occasional enjoyable conflict it is by and large mostly unfun fucking roflstops in either direction. Most people would rather reset the round because the game actively punishes you if you do not, as all conversion antags get more powerful when left unchecked. Not to mention if you wait to call the shuttle you get cockblocked by one of our myriad "sorry lol shuttle cant leave" abilities. I am not saying it is right, but it is why things are the way they are.

You talk about /tg/'s nature and yet it is the nature of /tg/ players that causes them to call the shuttle at a stubbed toe.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Massa100 » Thu May 11, 2017 3:01 pm #292188

BeeSting12 wrote:I agree with this thread, but at some point, the shuttle has to be called on a conversion based round- and better sooner than later for security. I usually make a good effort to take down the cult, and if they are still winning despite security's best efforts, it's time to call it. That's usually for blood cult though- for clock cult, they get smashed and then I have to call the shuttle since security is in full nazi mode hunting down the cult (as they should be) which isn't fun for anyone else. On a wizard round, it should honestly end when the wizard dies, but it doesn't, so it needs to be called before you have antagonists running about the place with the armory, pulse rifles, and meme magic.

You're not wrong.

But the whole point I tried to make here was: Exhaust all other available means before calling the shuttle. If security got wiped, the crew is rampant and cult is going wild, yes call the shuttle. If there's a full cult+construct army on the station, by all means, call the shuttle.

You should not call the shuttle because a botanist had a scary book on him and you found a rune in maintenance. Let the round progress a little bit before we just LEAVE. But yes, call the shuttle once things get hairy.

Also, for Wyz: You guys have been talking about needing to change the way players think/behave and solve the greytide issue. This might be just one way. Punish the grief lottery. Punish security validhunting. Make them have to run the ropes of justice instead of getting to harmbaton people. They have permabrig, bolts, tasers, execution chambers, a court room, space law and loyalty implants for a reason. None of these are used. At first sight, an antag is executed in the hallway with a fire extinguisher and the word "cuck".

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Nilons » Thu May 11, 2017 3:06 pm #292193

Yeah, colonial Marines rounds are normally hours long because they don't really do a shuttle call thing like we do and they need one side to win for greentext and you get a lot of cool shit that only happens because of length
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu May 11, 2017 3:15 pm #292197

Massa100 wrote:If security got wiped, the crew is rampant and cult is going wild, yes call the shuttle.


If security is wiped, who is calling the shuttle? And even assuming you call the shuttle you now have to survive for 14 minutes of it arriving (cult delay magic) and make sure nobody recalls it during the first 9 minutes. Three minutes of the shuttle being docked after that as well.

17 minutes is almost enough time for the cult to win the game from scratch, nevermind when they are "going wild"

Qbopper wrote:and that means the cult "wins"


Massa100 wrote:muh greentext


Putting "wins" in quotes doesn't make it untrue. Everyone gets gibbed and here is a big THE CULT WINS EVERYONE FUCKING DIED. It's pretty black and white.

It's a completely undesirable outcome both IC and OOC.

This isn't like traitor or ling or abductors or even rev or whatever where people can die or get maimed and stuff can get stolen but you still survive or cut a deal, it's a zero sum game.

I have no idea why anyone would think it's more fun to escape an antag than fight it.


Because you are completely outnumbered and they have a bunch of bullshit immunities to your gear. It's not even remotely a fair fight, it's a frustrating one.

then again I haven't seen a Deathsquad in YEARS, when years ago I saw them every few days. That was golden.


Some people got the bright idea that "the deathsquad is SUPPOSED to win!" and buffed them to the point of near immortality so nobody spawns them anymore because they aren't interesting to fight.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby BeeSting12 » Thu May 11, 2017 3:15 pm #292198

For the xenos point though: Xenos are retardedly powerful. If you don't call the shuttle, you WILL end up dead, and not the !losing is fun! kinda dead either. Generally you'll get gged by one of their infinite stuns and then tied up in their nest for five minutes while suffocating from no oxygen. Security's weapons are ineffective on them unless you can get them in a tight space where they can't use their sanic speed to dodge it. Infact the only good weapons against xenos are mechs and flamethrowers. They're unfun to fight and after you've purged the whole station of humans what is there to do as an xeno? Run to arrivals to spawncamp the new arrivals or gangbang the ERT?
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby BeeSting12 » Thu May 11, 2017 3:18 pm #292199

Kor wrote:
I have no idea why anyone would think it's more fun to escape an antag than fight it.


Because you are completely outnumbered and they have a bunch of bullshit immunities to your gear. It's not even remotely a fair fight, it's a frustrating one.

This is the main reason I call the shuttle on a clock cult round after thirty minutes no matter what. Cult's dead, well, there's nothing to fight and it's just extending the round and making it more cancerous for the cultists I've already executed and the innocents they've probably killed, along with frustrating for the like one remaining cultist. Clock cult's doing well? Alright, good for them. They have their OP meme gear and can GG us, least I can do is try and get the shuttle here before the cult wins as a last resort.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu May 11, 2017 3:19 pm #292200

Nilons wrote:Yeah, colonial Marines rounds are normally hours long because they don't really do a shuttle call thing like we do and they need one side to win for greentext and you get a lot of cool shit that only happens because of length


Colonial marines isn't really a comparable game, it's a single, pretty restricted in terms of gear/abilities, team death match mode designed to play a certain way on a map custom built for it. Our conversion modes can't control the map, and have limited control over the gear (there will always be toxins, there will always be an armory, and other coders will be shaking up balance constantly, etc).

Colonial marines also has strict rules against players metagaming and powergaming to ensure both sides get on an even footing and can build up to a confrontation that is fun for everyone involved. People would fucking shriek if you tried that here.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Atlanta-Ned » Thu May 11, 2017 3:28 pm #292203

Kor wrote:Colonial marines also has strict rules against players metagaming and powergaming to ensure both sides get on an even footing and can build up to a confrontation that is fun for everyone involved. People would fucking shriek if you tried that here.


Fuck em lets do that here anyway.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu May 11, 2017 3:32 pm #292204

CPTANT wrote:
Surviving on an inoperable station is the entire point of the game. You get thrown into circumstances that are beyond your control and try to make the best of it.


I like when things are chaotic and out of control on a macro level but you still feel like you are able to impact things on a personal level. The life you saved, the fire you put out, the traitor you got revenge on, the friend you dragged to the shuttle. You don't really get that in the conversion modes.

also you guys seem to hate long rounds.

HBL used to say 45 minutes was the point at which he'd trash a round and I think that left a pretty big mark on our culture considering how active he was and how many admins he trained.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Nilons » Thu May 11, 2017 3:35 pm #292205

Kor wrote:
Nilons wrote:Yeah, colonial Marines rounds are normally hours long because they don't really do a shuttle call thing like we do and they need one side to win for greentext and you get a lot of cool shit that only happens because of length


Colonial marines isn't really a comparable game, it's a single, pretty restricted in terms of gear/abilities, team death match mode designed to play a certain way on a map custom built for it. Our conversion modes can't control the map, and have limited control over the gear (there will always be toxins, there will always be an armory, and other coders will be shaking up balance constantly, etc).

Colonial marines also has strict rules against players metagaming and powergaming to ensure both sides get on an even footing and can build up to a confrontation that is fun for everyone involved. People would fucking shriek if you tried that here.


Fair points
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby captain sawrge » Thu May 11, 2017 3:37 pm #292207

Atlanta-Ned wrote:
Kor wrote:Colonial marines also has strict rules against players metagaming and powergaming to ensure both sides get on an even footing and can build up to a confrontation that is fun for everyone involved. People would fucking shriek if you tried that here.


Fuck em lets do that here anyway.

Convince someone to write the rules, convince the three headmins to make them policy, then convince all thirty or however many active admins we have to enforce them.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu May 11, 2017 3:37 pm #292208

CM also has pretty big physical barriers keeping the players out of eachothers bases of power to provide breathing room, where as our team modes (outside of nuke) have everyone sharing the same base (the station) which almost always leaves one side feeling overpressured.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby captain sawrge » Thu May 11, 2017 3:37 pm #292209

And then do it again next headmins cycle when one of them runs on the platform of reverting it and gets voted in.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Aloraydrel » Thu May 11, 2017 3:39 pm #292210

Every round should be at least 1 hour minimum to actually have every job experience its own progression (assuming someone was working on in at the start)

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby captain sawrge » Thu May 11, 2017 3:40 pm #292211

Aloraydrel wrote:Every round should be at least 1 hour minimum to actually have every job experience its own progression (assuming someone was working on in at the start)

A lot of jobs have boring or shallow enough progression that people lost interest way too fast to keep the round going for an hour
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby lzimann » Thu May 11, 2017 3:41 pm #292212

I'll be honest, conversion gamemodes(or at least the constant increase in them) are completly changing the game. Something needs to be done, either completly accepting that this is how we want to go(shorter rounds since it's unsustainable for security/command to go against cults) or start changing and move away from most, if not all, conversion gamemodes.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Nilons » Thu May 11, 2017 3:43 pm #292213

lzimann wrote:I'll be honest, conversion gamemodes(or at least the constant increase in them) are completly changing the game. Something needs to be done, either completly accepting that this is how we want to go(shorter rounds since it's unsustainable for security/command to go against cults) or start changing and move away from most, if not all, conversion gamemodes.


kill conversion modes lzimann
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Aloraydrel » Thu May 11, 2017 3:45 pm #292214

captain sawrge wrote:
Aloraydrel wrote:Every round should be at least 1 hour minimum to actually have every job experience its own progression (assuming someone was working on in at the start)

A lot of jobs have boring or shallow enough progression that people lost interest way too fast to keep the round going for an hour


Stop

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby ohnopigeons » Thu May 11, 2017 3:46 pm #292215

Let's say an antag decides to mass toxins max-cap bomb the entire station 10 minutes in. Medbay, bridge, brig, telecomms, science, and arrivals are completely gone, and the entire station is losing air rapidly. Half the crew are dead and even more will be dead if they can't find a spacesuit.

CPTANT wrote:Surviving on an inoperable station is the entire point of the game. You get thrown into circumstances that are beyond your control and try to make the best of it.


Here making the best of it involves calling the fucking shuttle - but wait! You can't because there's a hard 20 minute time limit. So you have to wait 10 minutes for the shuttle to be callable and another 5 minutes for the shuttle (assuming the heads aren't dead and are able to pull off a code red by some miracle).

If you meant "making the best of it" without calling the shuttle then-

Fuck you

Massa100 wrote:Mass bombings, overrun xeno infestations, a wild syndicate nuke team slaughtering is shuttle call worthy.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Wyzack » Thu May 11, 2017 3:50 pm #292216

Nilons wrote:
lzimann wrote:I'll be honest, conversion gamemodes(or at least the constant increase in them) are completly changing the game. Something needs to be done, either completly accepting that this is how we want to go(shorter rounds since it's unsustainable for security/command to go against cults) or start changing and move away from most, if not all, conversion gamemodes.


kill conversion modes lzimann


this is the dream, but i doubt it will ever happen. Too much politics involved, not least of which being one of our headmins has clock cult as their own personal project more or less and they also have one third veto power
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Nilons » Thu May 11, 2017 3:57 pm #292218

Wyzack wrote:
Nilons wrote:
lzimann wrote:I'll be honest, conversion gamemodes(or at least the constant increase in them) are completly changing the game. Something needs to be done, either completly accepting that this is how we want to go(shorter rounds since it's unsustainable for security/command to go against cults) or start changing and move away from most, if not all, conversion gamemodes.


kill conversion modes lzimann


this is the dream, but i doubt it will ever happen. Too much politics involved, not least of which being one of our headmins has clock cult as their own personal project more or less and they also have one third veto power


lzimann could do it
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby TheColdTurtle » Thu May 11, 2017 4:06 pm #292222

BOTH Image CULT Image MODES Image AREN'T Image FUN Image FOR Image SECURITY Image AND Image THEY Image CONTROL Image THE Image SHUTTLE Image
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Nilons » Thu May 11, 2017 4:15 pm #292227

TheColdSlime wrote:BOTH Image CULT Image MODES Image AREN'T Image FUN Image FOR Image SECURITY Image AND Image THEY Image CONTROL Image THE Image SHUTTLE Image


Evil kor is right
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby bandit » Thu May 11, 2017 5:52 pm #292302

it's not only adding more conversion modes but removing other modes (malf, most glaringly) meaning that they have a higher proportion
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu May 11, 2017 6:02 pm #292307

Malf wasn't removed though

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby bandit » Thu May 11, 2017 6:09 pm #292314

the game mode was
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu May 11, 2017 6:18 pm #292317

If malf was at 5% and traitor was at 30% and malf gets rolled into traitor and then traitor gets put to 35% and it spawns malf x% of the time in traitor what is the difference?

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Massa100 » Thu May 11, 2017 6:29 pm #292328

Well, this thread blew up.

You guys all seem to want to avoid conversion/dying, which is inherently the part of the game that we play for. If you don't want to get converted/want the cult to lose/don't EVER want Xenos to play then yes call the shuttle immediately. On the other side of the pond, there are players who are willing to face the issues without running away, or even OOCly very willing to be converted if they fight their way as a non convert and don't just give it up. Xenos killing everyone translates to everyone becoming Xenos. This is part of the game. If you want to "win", as in, stay alive and reset the round, I'm sure you can just continuously call the shuttle on a private server. Round events, dying, being arrested, Xenos, cult wars are all part of the game and a lot of is enjoy it. The shuttle is fundamentally an annoying system as it is because it enables a complete neglect of play.

Just because you don't like cult/never want cult to win doesn't mean they shouldn't. Flashbang it up, throw grenades, the crew on /tg/station is 100% willing to always get in a fight. It's the heads, specifically the Captains and HoS' that are always willing to reset the round for a grief lottery shot.

This thread was mostly about conversion antags and xenos. Also, if you guys think xenos are bad/boring, the solution is the ultimate one: deathsquad. I've NEVER seen one in so long and it's so sad. The best moments, for me, in SS13 were when there was no power, xeno infestation was rampant, few people were alive, comms were down, and a deathsquad was on the loose and I was just a lowly grey. That was fun. That was SS13, it's survival, responding to circumstance, not resetting circumstance.
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