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Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 3:01 am
by Massa100
Bottom post of the previous page:
I'll preface this by saying the emergency shuttle is for emergencies. Mass bombings, overrun xeno infestations, a wild syndicate nuke team slaughtering is shuttle call worthy.
"Cult", "Traitors", and "Xenos" should NEVER be considered emergencies. Especially when they're just discovered at round start for what ever reason. We have departments WELL equipped to deal with all manner of threats and problems. Running from them at first sight is stupid and annoying and detracts from SS13. The point of the game is to be confronted with situation changing events and respond in an appropriate manner. Running away and resetting the round is a stupid response to that. Until those problems become so extreme that there's no other way out, that is.
Even from an RP standpoint, this multi-billion dollar station should at least be protected by the security crew, and common staff, if need be, right? With the exception of antags calling, "Holla Holla get Dolla" is not a good shuttle call and I think it should land a head a jobban or send the shuttle back with a heavy timer on it.
I've even seen admins adminbus shuttle delays because security called it at the first sign of a cult antag and they didn't want to see a good round recycled so fast.
In short, I'm reccomending a policy change with regards to shuttle calls here. Shuttles should be for extreme damage to the station, extremely extenuating circumstances (rampant plasma fires, an all powerful cargo traitor, megafauna, I dunno). We shouldn't have shuttle calls because someone saw a xeno, or a cult. All available methods should be put to the test before the shuttle call goes through.
Why even play and get antag and then just leave because the CMO got bored when he didn't roll antag 20 minutes in?
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:21 am
by Togopal
Qbopper wrote:
this is certainly true for a couple of people but I don't see how it's relevant to the current discussion about shuttle calls
Sorry, I saw OP of this thread murderbone with desword and then call the shuttle ~40 minutes into the round two or three days ago and it reminded me of this thread
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:04 am
by Steelpoint
Be the only Security member and a cult is spotted early into the round, decide to call a Red Alert evacuation as you have no chance of halting the cult. Get called a shiter in OOC chat after the round for early calling the shuttle...
Unlike condoms, there's no catch all for deciding when its right and not right to call a evacuation. While there will be times where Security and Command have little justification for evacuating because they caught one Traitor, but there will also be times where you have a undermanned security force who decide to cut their losses and pull out early.
Kor made a good point, if you want to stop early shuttle calls, then design game modes that don't rely on fucking over security so hard they decide that the only course of action is to evac early.
If your game mode needs a tool or mechanic to delay or stop the shuttle from being called or evacuating, then that should be a clear sign of a larger issue.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:36 am
by onleavedontatme
Qbopper wrote:Togopal wrote:When the same people who call security powertrippers are the same people who would murderbone with a desword instead of doing anything interesting when they roll antag
this is certainly true for a couple of people but I don't see how it's relevant to the current discussion about shuttle calls
It's relevant because the OP plays in a manner that is dull for everyone else involved and then gets confused when nobody wants to play with him
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:52 pm
by Oldman Robustin
Shuttle calling is just loaded with unaddressed issues.
1) There's no downside to calling the shuttle. If you change your mind you can recall, if you can't recall its probably because shit deteriorated to the point you wouldn't want to recall.
2) There's no downside to red-alerting. Do it every round. It literally cannot backfire if you're security.
3) Shuttle calling must be done preemptively. If shits starts to go south you better just call it because if you don't and then it continues to go south, you might not get a second chance. Why risk it? See #1.
4) If you fail to call the shuttle before shit goes south, the quality of your round goes REALLY south. I don't just mean for the living people, I mostly mean the dead. If you are starting to lose against the Clock Cult, or rampaging traitors/lings, etc. then you're looking at another 20+ minutes of watching everything you fought for get shit on. At least if you can get a shuttle out before you die then your "respawn" (new round) timer is cut significantly.
5) The shuttle is the only way to win in some situations. This is probably the least avoidable of the issues, but there is probably a solution out there that allows for security "reinforcements" (fuck it Im not that busy today I'll try to code this) so that it doesn't feel utterly helpless when things start going to shit. As sec I know I would stick around if I could request backup and try to restore order instead of being forced to call the shuttle because the road between order and chaos is a one way street.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:03 pm
by BeeSting12
Oldman Robustin wrote:Shuttle calling is just loaded with unaddressed issues.
1) There's no downside to calling the shuttle. If you change your mind you can recall, if you can't recall its probably because shit deteriorated to the point you wouldn't want to recall.
2) There's no downside to red-alerting. Do it every round. It literally cannot backfire if you're security.
3) Shuttle calling must be done preemptively. If shits starts to go south you better just call it because if you don't and then it continues to go south, you might not get a second chance. Why risk it? See #1.
4) If you fail to call the shuttle before shit goes south, the quality of your round goes REALLY south. I don't just mean for the living people, I mostly mean the dead. If you are starting to lose against the Clock Cult, or rampaging traitors/lings, etc. then you're looking at another 20+ minutes of watching everything you fought for get shit on. At least if you can get a shuttle out before you die then your "respawn" (new round) timer is cut significantly.
5) The shuttle is the only way to win in some situations. This is probably the least avoidable of the issues, but there is probably a solution out there that allows for security "reinforcements" (fuck it Im not that busy today I'll try to code this) so that it doesn't feel utterly helpless when things start going to shit. As sec I know I would stick around if I could request backup and try to restore order instead of being forced to call the shuttle because the road between order and chaos is a one way street.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 5:09 pm
by Qbopper
Kor wrote:Qbopper wrote:Togopal wrote:When the same people who call security powertrippers are the same people who would murderbone with a desword instead of doing anything interesting when they roll antag
this is certainly true for a couple of people but I don't see how it's relevant to the current discussion about shuttle calls
It's relevant because the OP plays in a manner that is dull for everyone else involved and then gets confused when nobody wants to play with him
yeah but it doesn't add to the discussion to shit on OP, though
Oldman Robustin wrote:Shuttle calling is just loaded with unaddressed issues.
1) There's no downside to calling the shuttle. If you change your mind you can recall, if you can't recall its probably because shit deteriorated to the point you wouldn't want to recall.
2) There's no downside to red-alerting. Do it every round. It literally cannot backfire if you're security.
3) Shuttle calling must be done preemptively. If shits starts to go south you better just call it because if you don't and then it continues to go south, you might not get a second chance. Why risk it? See #1.
4) If you fail to call the shuttle before shit goes south, the quality of your round goes REALLY south. I don't just mean for the living people, I mostly mean the dead. If you are starting to lose against the Clock Cult, or rampaging traitors/lings, etc. then you're looking at another 20+ minutes of watching everything you fought for get shit on. At least if you can get a shuttle out before you die then your "respawn" (new round) timer is cut significantly.
5) The shuttle is the only way to win in some situations. This is probably the least avoidable of the issues, but there is probably a solution out there that allows for security "reinforcements" (fuck it Im not that busy today I'll try to code this) so that it doesn't feel utterly helpless when things start going to shit. As sec I know I would stick around if I could request backup and try to restore order instead of being forced to call the shuttle because the road between order and chaos is a one way street.
yeah this is mostly a post I can get behind, it pains me to agree with someone saying "win" like that but in the case of modes like cult/etc. it's unfortunately true. I don't know how we can fix this shit without reconsidering some major design choices though
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 5:14 pm
by Togopal
Qbopper wrote:Kor wrote:Qbopper wrote:Togopal wrote:When the same people who call security powertrippers are the same people who would murderbone with a desword instead of doing anything interesting when they roll antag
this is certainly true for a couple of people but I don't see how it's relevant to the current discussion about shuttle calls
It's relevant because the OP plays in a manner that is dull for everyone else involved and then gets confused when nobody wants to play with him
yeah but it doesn't add to the discussion to shit on OP though
The person primarily concerned with the problem is unaware that the problem is because of him and people who play like him
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 6:05 pm
by Wyzack
Steelpoint wrote:Be the only Security member and a cult is spotted early into the round, decide to call a Red Alert evacuation as you have no chance of halting the cult. Get called a shiter in OOC chat after the round for early calling the shuttle...
Unlike condoms, there's no catch all for deciding when its right and not right to call a evacuation. While there will be times where Security and Command have little justification for evacuating because they caught one Traitor, but there will also be times where you have a undermanned security force who decide to cut their losses and pull out early.
Kor made a good point, if you want to stop early shuttle calls, then design game modes that don't rely on fucking over security so hard they decide that the only course of action is to evac early.
If your game mode needs a tool or mechanic to delay or stop the shuttle from being called or evacuating, then that should be a clear sign of a larger issue.
This is all correct and nothing will change until it is addressed, like it or not
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 6:35 pm
by Qbopper
Togopal wrote:The person primarily concerned with the problem is unaware that the problem is because of him and people who play like him
which is all well and good but it doesn't fix the issue when you passive aggressively call them out
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:00 pm
by onleavedontatme
OPs attitude of "fuck those people if they're not having fun they're garbage anyway" is worthy of derision Togapol did nothing wrong.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:27 pm
by Qbopper
I'm not saying it was "wrong", I'm just saying that it isn't really contributing, even if I agree with him
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:22 pm
by Togopal
Kor wrote: Togapol.
You will pay for this crime with your life, sleep with one eye open tonight.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:24 pm
by Togopal
Qbopper wrote:Togopal wrote:The person primarily concerned with the problem is unaware that the problem is because of him and people who play like him
which is all well and good but it doesn't fix the issue when you passive aggressively call them out
They need to be responsible for fixing the issue themselves if they are a source of it
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:36 pm
by Reece
Togopal wrote:Kor wrote: Togapol.
You will pay for this crime with your life, sleep with one eye open tonight.
Toga/pol
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:33 pm
by TheWulfe
Bullying someone for a policy vision that feel would improve the game is totally uncalled for.
Several player's bias against team antagonists has already been established and detracts from policy discussion. Ganging up and attempting to bullying someone because you're on one side of the aisle; and trying to invent and gaslight into existence "the reasons no one wants to plaaaaay with joooooo" "You're the reason why X" is in bad form and childish.
Knock it off.
---
Now to the policy discussion.
All the criticism of this policy has been based on the perspective of try-harding a 'win' in the first place. 'If I don't immediately valid-call, a team antagonist...
just might raise their chance to win'. No shit, the antagonists are being allowed the play the game, no wonder they're going to have a chance to 'win' now. That's player interaction, round interaction, and a game mode being played. The game is happening. Play it.
This is also incredibly selfish and completely missing the point. Abusing the fact that team antagonists can be insta-dunked by a shuttle call because their objective requires more buffer space and round activity than 26 minutes is almost flat out bannable meta that's only accepted because all the powerplayers have been doing it for a simultaneous red-text and reroll. My personal definition for this is 'valid-calling', and it crosses into Rule 1: Don't Be A Dick.
My phrasing for this policy would be:
It's generally accepted that the 'fun', in a game-oriented way, of a round stems from how the antag can influence a round. Valid-calling in a way that nips any influence at all from building up at all not only robs the antags of their playability as a role and their fun, but robs the crew/serverbase of their fun since any round interaction that could have affected them got stifled early by play-to-red-text/reroll valid-callers.
That's all that's being considered in this policy discussion. Just try and get some good player interaction before mindlessly slamming a shuttle call.
IC-wise, you're not abandoning your trillion dollar space station because you're a bitch and can't handle some guy with a spoopy book when you're staffed with a security force stocked with an armory.
OOC-wise, you're robbing other players of fun on both sides.
---
Better yet, I bet that if running away (evacuating) without X number of team antags dead/converted/items captured gave the antagonists green-text by default...
End text:
The crew of [station] fled the station, leaving [antagonist] to complete their work unopposed!
[Objectives listed as green text completed].
Giving the antagonists green text while subtlety calling out the validcaller out for running like a bitch? I
guarantee validcalling would disappear in under a week.
In fact, it makes more sense for a cult to want a shuttle called. A reaction to a shuttle call from the station should be "What, why are we evacuating with a cult on the loose, we're just giving our trillion dollar station away to eldritch worshipping cultists if we evacuate now" instead of "Ha! I can put on countdown to red text."
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:36 pm
by oranges
TheWulfe wrote:Bullying someone for a policy vision that feel would improve the game is totally uncalled for.
This isn't digg, if you act like a retard expect to be treated like one
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:42 pm
by Togopal
TheWulfe wrote:Bullying someone for a policy vision that feel would improve the game is totally uncalled for.
Several player's bias against team antagonists has already been established and detracts from policy discussion. Ganging up and attempting to bullying someone because you're on one side of the aisle; and trying to invent and gaslight into existence "the reasons no one wants to plaaaaay with joooooo" "You're the reason why X" is in bad form and childish.
Knock it off.
Only quoting relevant text to avoid spam
I (or 'we' if you want to assume Kor is my buddy and we just pick people to tear apart (we dont)) havent bullied this person in any way, it is not like I started insulting him personally, I just insulted his play style. I pointed out the hypocrisy in complaining about players actions while also doing things that would contribute to a response with said actions.
P.S. when you call somebodies argument childish, try not to act like a child beforehand by mocking us like a child
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 11:18 pm
by onleavedontatme
He literally fucking said the people who disagree with him are garbage how is it fucking gaslighting to tell him that acting without regard to other players enjoyment means they wont care about his
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 11:50 pm
by TheWulfe
Oranges wrote:This isn't digg, if you act like a retard expect to be treated like one
Togopal wrote:
Only quoting relevant text to avoid spam
I (or 'we' if you want to assume Kor is my buddy and we just pick people to tear apart (we dont)) havent bullied this person in any way, it is not like I started insulting him personally, I just insulted his play style. I pointed out the hypocrisy in complaining about players actions while also doing things that would contribute to a response with said actions.
P.S. when you call somebodies argument childish, try not to act like a child beforehand by mocking us like a child
I'm sorry I have to call you and few others out for acting like assholes. You all completely devolved from discussion to spending an entire page and a half name calling and general shittery on the OP for just being on the 'other side' of the argument.
But there is nothing to be gained or discussed policy wise for spending an entire page calling someone shit, or a retard for daring to use a double e-sword as a solo antagonist (seriously?), or deducing playstyles or completely fabricating arguments the OP hasn't even stated.
Kor wrote:He literally fucking said the people who disagree with him are garbage how is it fucking gaslighting to tell him that acting without regard to other players enjoyment means they wont care about his
Reread
He said in response to a emojimemer that security was garbage, and not to base a discussion based on what is probably a garbage security team (IE a garbage security team would be playing like garbage and would probably think validcalling is a proper way to respond to antagonists.).
EDIT: Let's ignore the flame war. Keep it to policy and discuss validcalling, which is what the thread and the majority of my post is actually discussed.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 11:59 pm
by Togopal
TheWulfe wrote:
I'm sorry I have to call you and few others out for acting like assholes. You all completely devolved from discussion to spending an entire page and a half name calling and general shittery on the OP for just being on the 'other side' of the argument.
But there is nothing to be gained or discussed policy wise for spending an entire page calling someone shit, or a retard for daring to use a double e-sword as a solo antagonist (seriously?), or deducing playstyles or completely fabricating arguments the OP hasn't even stated.
The only person fabricating shit is you dude, I never called them a retard and neither me or Kor have called them any names since my original post. Quit making shit up and read.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:16 am
by Qbopper
I think he was specifically referring to oranges' post
also it's time to lock this thread jesus christ
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:22 am
by Wyzack
Wulfe your massive post does not adress the fact that these modes are not fun for the people with the authority to call the shuttle and trying to force them to play and either die or go full Hitler to win is shit. You can not force people to play if it is not fun.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:34 am
by TheWulfe
From now on I think it's best to ignore the people trying to deliberately flamebait.
---
I literally don't get this meme of security not having fun against team antagonists. Almost every one of my memorable rounds have involved team based interactivity. Defending the brig against an overwhelming number of revolutionaries, charging the cult base/charging in to stop the summoning Nar-Sie/Ark, getting into a war with Nanotrasen as the Ashwalkers are some the of the funnest interactions I've had and they typically involved the most of the server base in getting on the fun.
Let me just relate an example I observed just today.
It's a cult round, and of course the dreaded 20 minutes in first chance to call the shuttle occurs. Then maybe by divine providence a head wanted to stay or the cult was lucky enough to get a headcult, the shuttle was recalled and the game mode could actually be played. Lo and behold, in that round there was a raid on the cult base, and the crew were clawing tooth and nail to closely stop Nar-Sie summons. I don't think anyone had a bad time, even if they're on the losing side.
Which do you think is more fun for a round to play out and create stories:
Random screen from the first cult round to go over 26 minutes since reading the thread:
or
"Some head validcalled because he wants a simultaneous red-text/reroll and we all got on the shuttle"
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:46 am
by Owegno
Do you even play security? Teamantag rounds can be fun as security but they can also just suck and regardless they are super stressful and exhausting. It doesn't matter if you have a few good fights, unless its lowpop its going to be a stressful mess with no time to relax and on a whole the round will just sap you dry and make you want to take the path of least resistance in the future. I pretty much blame my massive aversion for high pop from the fact I only played for security for roughly 2 years and back then we only had rev and cult, no firstOCult or rev 2.0. I actually wish I had realized that I could just call the shuttle to skip the round if I spotted anything culty.
Rev was actually tolerable since it could be won quickly if you were good, and if not it would be over fast.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:56 am
by Oldman Robustin
The fact that there's other traitors on board?!
Seriously that was the worst part of Malf. 30 minutes of extended and then 5 minutes of shocked/bolted doors, trying to breach a fortified laser fiesta without guns, then praying the captain isn't a fuckboy who didn't take his pinpointer or fail to grab a bounced radio. Now Malf AI is a sideshow like 90% of the time it happens.
Wizard is in a similar spot. Just fucking awful in the vast majority of rounds but we gave it the malf treatment by padding it with traitors so nobody really gives a shit its just traitor mode after 5 minutes when the wizard gets himself killed or "Hope you rolled antag son" summon mode where you have half the crew running around with superweapons and within 5 minutes there's about a 100% chance someone clicks you and you're instantly fucked.
As for conversion modes, yes it sucks to lose against them as sec (though at least blood cult will keep you around and give you a sense of ownership in victory) but its the same story for the antags. Either they win and get BIGTEXT or they lose and it was all for naught. For every non-balance downside you can play up there's an upside. Yes the outcome is binary but that means victory feels as meaningful and awesome as losing feels pointless and hopeless. In traitor the stakes are typically lower, you get smaller wins but your defeats feel small too. Thats why variety is nice. Traitor is beautiful for how it brings out details and nuances in gameplay and allows for longer rounds, but it also sucks because unless an antag sacks up and does something BIG, your victories feel small and disjointed. Dudes are gonna greentext no matter what you do and the idiots you redtexted probably would've gotten murdered by someone else anyway.
Also its not unique to conversion modes. Nukes have one of the most "absolute" victories but sometimes striving hard and losing anyway is part of the bigger story that makes this game worth playing. Also you've beating this "space box" meme to death. At this point theyre a tiny fraction of BOTH cult rounds and even then are usually a retard magnet for wasting time and resources that would've been much more potent on station.
Anyway I'm rambling at this point. Instead of trying to tell players how to play (see Coiax/Incoming PR) or trying to get rid of every mode that's hard on sec. Just focus on giving Sec the same damn mechanic that everyone else has to keep them at their job and not whining for a shuttle the moment things get unpleasant: A PROGRESSION MECHANIC. I already outlined it in the PR comments, and elsewhere, but its really not that difficult to pull off. Do that and give Sec a way to bring in backup so that they at least have a ray of hope during rounds gone bad and things would improve drastically.
Sec is just an objectively bad experience most rounds, conversion or not, and the solution should never be "lets lock them on station longer!" or "Lets drag the rest of our gameplay down to sec's level of stifling staleness so they don't feel so bad about signing up!"
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:59 am
by TheWulfe
Owegno wrote:Do you even play security? Teamantag rounds can be fun as security but they can also just suck and regardless they are super stressful and exhausting. It doesn't matter if you have a few good fights, unless its lowpop its going to be a stressful mess with no time to relax and on a whole the round will just sap you dry and make you want to take the path of least resistance in the future. I pretty much blame my massive aversion for high pop from the fact I only played for security for roughly 2 years and back then we only had rev and cult, no firstOCult or rev 2.0. I actually wish I had realized that I could just call the shuttle to skip the round if I spotted anything culty.
Rev was actually tolerable since it could be won quickly if you were good, and if not it would be over fast.
Maybe it's a difference in playstyle, but that intensity that you describe as stressful is one of the most thrilling parts of security. I feel that the intensity is really fun for security if you can handle yourself. There's nothing like have brig assaulted by a flood a revs where you know you're going to get lynched but you're going to do your damnedest to make it hard for them and take out as many as you can. Sure that intensity really wears my adrenaline gives me security fatigue for about a week where I can't play security, but it's worth it. The path of least resistance described is what I really feel is a fault with heads and security. Do they fear losing even if they're going to have a fun and competitive and intense round?
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:11 am
by Oldman Robustin
TheWulfe wrote:From now on I think it's best to ignore the people trying to deliberately flamebait.
I literally don't get this meme of security not having fun against team antagonists. Almost every one of my memorable rounds have involved team based interactivity. Defending the brig against an overwhelming number of revolutionaries, charging the cult base/charging in to stop the summoning Nar-Sie/Ark, getting into a war with Nanotrasen as the Ashwalkers are some the of the funnest interactions I've had and they typically involved the most of the server base in getting on the fun.
I agree. I know part of my feelings are just because I've played thousands of rounds but traitor produces interesting rounds like 2% of the time. Its rare for these rounds to have anything you haven't seen 100 times before. When I reflect back my favorite moments in SS13 theres almost nothing from traitor rounds. "I shot a traitor who killed a bunch of guys" is about as good as it gets. With team modes there's so much at stake, the conflict isn't just bigger, it's bigger by an order of magnitude instead of just a long string of "Person A stuns Person B and then takes them out of the round" moments you get absolutely fucking crazy fights. I'm still salty about a clock cult round yesterday where a combination of pooled resources and incompetent recruits got me killed (and we lost) but holding out in my base against 5:1 odds with a couple bros (and one retard) was fucking more memorable than the last 30 traitor rounds combined.
I took a similar screen to yours a month or two ago.
See if you can count how many wraiths are being hit with bats in this screenshot. It was fucking AMAZING. Random crew with fucking bats smashing in and trying (and succeeding) to stop the Cult was incredible. I don't think these rounds are inherently bad for Sec at all, a lot of it is just projecting Sec's innate issues onto the modes that most starkly illustrate them by having the round end in catastrophe when sec's dysfunction goes on full display.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:18 am
by Wyzack
If people were enjoying it the shuttle would not always get called at the drop of a hat every time.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:19 am
by Togopal
Wyzack wrote:If people were enjoying it the shuttle would not always get called at the drop of a hat every time.
Obviously the solution to this is to force them to enjoy it rather than seeking out why it may not be enjoyable to certain roles and fixing them
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:27 am
by Wyzack
Togopal wrote:Wyzack wrote:If people were enjoying it the shuttle would not always get called at the drop of a hat every time.
Obviously the solution to this is to force them to enjoy it rather than seeking out why it may not be enjoyable to certain roles and fixing them
brilliant we have cracked the code at long last
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:32 am
by D&B
Can you at least spit on the cult knife before you stab us with it.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 4:49 am
by Oldman Robustin
Wyzack wrote:If people were enjoying it the shuttle would not always get called at the drop of a hat every time.
It doesn't. Check and Mate.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:31 am
by oranges
TheWulfe wrote:
I'm sorry I have to call you and few others out for acting like assholes.
You got me in a box here
TheWulfe wrote:
You all completely devolved from discussion to spending an entire page and a half name calling and general shittery on the OP for just being on the 'other side' of the argument.
One post responding to your digg tier tone policing, two now I suppose
TheWulfe wrote:
But there is nothing to be gained or discussed policy wise for spending an entire page calling someone shit, or a retard
They're is if they're so retarded that their original point is dwarfed by their retardation
Qbopper wrote:I think he was specifically referring to oranges' post
also it's time to lock this thread jesus christ
What a totally suprising and unexpected post from the digg tier admin
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:32 am
by oranges
Wyzack wrote:If people were enjoying it the shuttle would not always get called at the drop of a hat every time.
The question isn't really if either style of play is more valid
the question is which side of the lever that we lean on will leave us with more players left? And personally I think avoiding early shuttle calls will leave us with more players left and of a higher quality
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:16 am
by CPTANT
Remove the influence red alert has on the shuttle timer.
2.5 minutes is too short to recall in many situations.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:42 am
by onleavedontatme
Oranges wrote:Wyzack wrote:If people were enjoying it the shuttle would not always get called at the drop of a hat every time.
The question isn't really if either style of play is more valid
the question is which side of the lever that we lean on will leave us with more players left? And personally I think avoiding early shuttle calls will leave us with more players left and of a higher quality
We can find and use other levers though. Positive reinforcement is both going to be more effective and make people happier rather than just forcing people to do things they dislike.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:47 pm
by WarbossLincoln
Doesn't this often boil down to how shitty conversion antag rounds tend to be? You don't see really early shuttle calls in ling or tator too much unless they cause massive station damage with bombs or something. With cult your only options are to 1: kill the cult completely, which turns the round into extended until you flee, 2: flee the cult before they can stop the shuttle from leaving, 3: die horribly.
Hell, we had a traitor round last night where the CE blew up the SM engine 2 minutes into the round and the game lasted like an hour. We sealed off engineering, someone set up solars I think, and then eventually entropy won and we left.
I don't think it would be a bad idea trialing the removal, or extreme reduction in frequency, of conversion modes for a week. Just to see if they're what cause a lot of our problems. If we don't notice a difference then it's probably not the conversion modes' fault. If things are noticeably better then we should rework the conversion modes.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:24 pm
by Togopal
Another thing to factor in to the equation, at least for Sybil, is lowpop paranoia. From what I have seen late at night/early in the morning there is a distinct lack of heads, and latejoiners taking head roles are more often than not nonexistant. The pressure of having to call the shuttle increases if you are the only head alive and the traitor/antag has murderous intentions, because if they kill you they take your id, and from the rest of the round the time the shuttle is called is completely up to them, so they have more than enough time to do their objective(s) before they decide to leave, putting the entire crew at jeopardy
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:09 pm
by Wyzack
Oldman Robustin wrote:Wyzack wrote:If people were enjoying it the shuttle would not always get called at the drop of a hat every time.
It doesn't. Check and Mate.
there we go folks there was no problem to begin with lock the thread go home APC destroyed mission accomplished we did it digg
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:26 pm
by WarbossLincoln
He's got a point. It seems like only a couple round types cause a super early shuttle call.
Ops, but that's what you want there. It's an integral part of the whole conflict, to escape with the disk and save as many as possible.
Cult. Because either the cult gets stomped and it becomes extended(call it to reroll the round) or the cult goes out of control, kills all non-cult and then it's a circle jerk.
In other game modes it's not really a problem. Hell, I've seen a lot more work at fixing the station recently than has been typical of /tg/ and it's been nice. The other day a tater blew up the hallway between science and medbay. Wiped out the morgue, part of genetics, robotics, and half of chemistry. Myself, a second engie borg, and a human engineer patched the hole and got air back to livable in about 5 minutes. 5 minutes later the wiring and pipes were back, another 5-10 minutes and all those rooms had power and their surviving machines running again. Someone went on to cure a virus in chemistry, a mech got built, and genetics got the cloner back online. It was actually a really good round of people maintaining the station for about an hour before it because too much to handle and we left.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:27 pm
by Wyzack
The cult rounds thing is kind of my point. Something is wrong with these modes if we need to force people to not end them as soon as possible
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:55 pm
by BeeSting12
Wyzack wrote:The cult rounds thing is kind of my point. Something is wrong with these modes if we need to force people to not end them as soon as possible
Blood cult is so fast paced that if they're somewhat competent they can have a ton of people by the time the shuttle is even ready to be called. I've even seen the cult win in under 15 minutes depending on how robust the roundstart cultists were.
Clock cult literally needs that crutch no matter what though. They're just not fast enough to be done by the time the shuttle can be called, it requires a little more time to get endgame gear. Clock cult tends to be steamrolled by security though, and if I've just steamrolled a cult I'm gonna call the shuttle ASAP so we can get a new better roundtype or at least competent cultists.
tldr: The blood cultists need to git gud and the clock cultists should probably git gud too but also the mode isn't that fast paced.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:28 pm
by cedarbridge
Togopal wrote:Another thing to factor in to the equation, at least for Sybil, is lowpop paranoia. From what I have seen late at night/early in the morning there is a distinct lack of heads, and latejoiners taking head roles are more often than not nonexistant. The pressure of having to call the shuttle increases if you are the only head alive and the traitor/antag has murderous intentions, because if they kill you they take your id, and from the rest of the round the time the shuttle is called is completely up to them, so they have more than enough time to do their objective(s) before they decide to leave, putting the entire crew at jeopardy
Don't look at me. I've gone out of my way as a lowpop antag on sybil to get the shuttle called and I've had it recalled just specifically to validhunt the guy that called it.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:32 pm
by Togopal
cedarbridge wrote:Togopal wrote:Another thing to factor in to the equation, at least for Sybil, is lowpop paranoia. From what I have seen late at night/early in the morning there is a distinct lack of heads, and latejoiners taking head roles are more often than not nonexistant. The pressure of having to call the shuttle increases if you are the only head alive and the traitor/antag has murderous intentions, because if they kill you they take your id, and from the rest of the round the time the shuttle is called is completely up to them, so they have more than enough time to do their objective(s) before they decide to leave, putting the entire crew at jeopardy
Don't look at me. I've gone out of my way as a lowpop antag on sybil to get the shuttle called and I've had it recalled just specifically to validhunt the guy that called it.
Please do Sybil a big big favor and deal with the douchebags in science who build their own comms console just to recall in safety when the rest of the station is in shambles because muh once in a lifetime research levels
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:43 pm
by Qbopper
Togopal wrote:cedarbridge wrote:Togopal wrote:Another thing to factor in to the equation, at least for Sybil, is lowpop paranoia. From what I have seen late at night/early in the morning there is a distinct lack of heads, and latejoiners taking head roles are more often than not nonexistant. The pressure of having to call the shuttle increases if you are the only head alive and the traitor/antag has murderous intentions, because if they kill you they take your id, and from the rest of the round the time the shuttle is called is completely up to them, so they have more than enough time to do their objective(s) before they decide to leave, putting the entire crew at jeopardy
Don't look at me. I've gone out of my way as a lowpop antag on sybil to get the shuttle called and I've had it recalled just specifically to validhunt the guy that called it.
Please do Sybil a big big favor and deal with the douchebags in science who build their own comms console just to recall in safety when the rest of the station is in shambles because muh once in a lifetime research levels
rule 0.2 wrote:Admins have intervened before and will do so again in situations where a player regardless of antag status has repeatedly delayed round-end by recalling the shuttle when most other players are dead or want to leave.
ahelp that shit please
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:47 pm
by BeeSting12
yeah like that faggot sir john who was recalling from the white ship as captain and then just AFKing there till it gets called again. admins put a fucking rod through him
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:52 pm
by Oldman Robustin
"It seems like it feels like its like its obviously like like people like to like when things are like likable".
-Everyone in this thread attesting to the fact we desperately need better stats
Prepare to be blown away by ACTUAL NUMBERS (from the last 150 rounds, Atlanta plz have your stat page do this for all rounds):
Avg Min Max
Avg 0:52:33
T 1:07:25 0:31:35 2:52:22
N 0:33:52 0:15:22 0:43:31
Blob 0:34:08 0:34:08 0:34:08
TC 0:53:58 0:38:24 1:27:03
E 1:48:09 0:41:48 3:33:20
W 0:44:30 0:29:52 1:04:00
GW 0:49:07 0:29:52 1:14:15
CC 0:57:18 0:34:08 1:21:04
BC 0:51:49 0:35:00 1:14:14
No the double 29:52 isnt an error. Conclusion: A lot of bullshit in this thread.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:41 am
by oranges
what are tehse numbers supposed to mean
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:52 am
by BeeSting12
It means that the average round is a lot longer that 30 minutes, which, if you listen to everyone else in the thread, would have you believe because they seem to think the shuttle is called at 20 minutes on red alert the minute an antagonist is confirmed. edit: I misunderstood some of the data but my point still stands.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:59 am
by Steelpoint
Oldman coming in with the facts.
Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:07 am
by Oldman Robustin
BeeSting12 wrote:It means that the average round is a lot longer that 30 minutes, which, if you listen to everyone else in the thread, would have you believe because they seem to think the shuttle is called at 20 minutes on red alert the minute an antagonist is confirmed. edit: I misunderstood some of the data but my point still stands.
Basically, sorry about the ugly formatting. There's also virtually no "OMG 15m rounds!", only nuke had rounds that went under 30 minutes.
Of course this is a small sample, 150 rounds is still more info than what some forum nerd got from the 2 rounds he's played in the same period of time.
