Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby bandit » Thu May 11, 2017 6:30 pm #292329

The game mode structure. You can't call the shuttle, whereas in traitor (IIRC) you can; traitor rounds can be short or long, tending toward short, whereas malf had a semi-fixed length.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Cobby » Thu May 11, 2017 6:31 pm #292330

I think the extent at which I admin-recall shuttles is because it's a map they dislike and they put in the reason "bad map" or something dumb. Any other I don't touch because I assume the round is going to get hectic now that antags feel like they're on a timer.

Also cult was my favorite mode when I joined, I liked being able to research runes because, even though the process was boring, it felt like an achievement of knowing something not many others knew how to do. Conversion modes are pretty fun but I don't think punishing the non-antags because they aren't/can't be converted for trying to escape ICly or not lose OOCly seems odd and not very enjoyable to enforce.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu May 11, 2017 6:43 pm #292342

Massa100 wrote:the crew on /tg/station is 100% willing to always get in a fight. It's the heads, specifically the Captains and HoS' that are always willing to reset the round for a grief lottery shot.


>the players that get to become antagonists and kill everyone are always willing to keep playing those modes

>the players who will end up dead and then trash talked/screamed at in OOC/deadchat aren't

Hmm....

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Massa100 » Thu May 11, 2017 6:44 pm #292343

Nilons wrote:
lzimann wrote:I'll be honest, conversion gamemodes(or at least the constant increase in them) are completly changing the game. Something needs to be done, either completly accepting that this is how we want to go(shorter rounds since it's unsustainable for security/command to go against cults) or start changing and move away from most, if not all, conversion gamemodes.


kill conversion modes lzimann

I mean, we've literally always had rev and cult and had gangs for years. Conversion is fine, it's a shorter round type without a doubt though. Security SHOULD have a hard time handling the masses in a rev round. It's practically grief in a game mode. Then, with traitors and stuff we have a longer roundtype which is also fine.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby bandit » Thu May 11, 2017 6:47 pm #292346

it's not the fault of game modes, it is that there is no incentive not to call the shuttle and an incentive to call it that maybe shouldn't be (antag lottery). the result of

A) RP deteriorating, because there wasn't any more of an incentive before people didn't RP out
B) removal and/or lower probability of modes that prohibit shuttle calls
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby D&B » Thu May 11, 2017 6:47 pm #292348

Gangs was a buggy piece of shit that should never have come back, and now it's connected to a respirator and three pacemaker's but nobody wants to let anyone else pull the plug.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Massa100 » Thu May 11, 2017 7:00 pm #292355

ohnopigeons wrote:Let's say an antag decides to mass toxins max-cap bomb the entire station 10 minutes in. Medbay, bridge, brig, telecomms, science, and arrivals are completely gone, and the entire station is losing air rapidly. Half the crew are dead and even more will be dead if they can't find a spacesuit.

CPTANT wrote:Surviving on an inoperable station is the entire point of the game. You get thrown into circumstances that are beyond your control and try to make the best of it.


Here making the best of it involves calling the fucking shuttle - but wait! You can't because there's a hard 20 minute time limit. So you have to wait 10 minutes for the shuttle to be callable and another 5 minutes for the shuttle (assuming the heads aren't dead and are able to pull off a code red by some miracle).

If you meant "making the best of it" without calling the shuttle then-

Fuck you

Massa100 wrote:Mass bombings, overrun xeno infestations, a wild syndicate nuke team slaughtering is shuttle call worthy.

I deliberately left wiggle room in my policy suggestion because of this.

"A list of preapproved reasons for extenuating circumstances that are up to admin discretion."

also gangs is fun

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby bandit » Thu May 11, 2017 7:01 pm #292356

ohnopigeons wrote:Let's say an antag decides to mass toxins max-cap bomb the entire station 10 minutes in. Medbay, bridge, brig, telecomms, science, and arrivals are completely gone, and the entire station is losing air rapidly. Half the crew are dead and even more will be dead if they can't find a spacesuit.


if only there was an engineering and medical staff

like, the point of the game has shifted from "try to hold the station together while antags try to thwart you at that, calling the shuttle means admitting defeat" and that is sad
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Massa100 » Thu May 11, 2017 7:02 pm #292358

TheColdSlime wrote:BOTH Image CULT Image MODES Image AREN'T Image FUN Image FOR Image SECURITY Image AND Image THEY Image CONTROL Image THE Image SHUTTLE Image

Security is garbage anyway.

We shouldn't base this discussion on the inability of a garbage sec team to do anything. Security is for people who need a power binge.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu May 11, 2017 7:04 pm #292361

bandit wrote:B) removal and/or lower probability of modes that prohibit shuttle calls


We """"lost""" malf and gained Gang which didn't allow shuttle calls and Shadowling briefly had a very reliable shuttle blocker so I believe you are mistaken on that point

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby bandit » Thu May 11, 2017 7:04 pm #292363

sling is gone, gang allows shuttle calls I believe, I'm not sure what your point is
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu May 11, 2017 7:05 pm #292364

Gang had infinite recall tools, the shuttle was not callable unless you killed the gangs.

My point is that we've had an equal if not greater number of modes that block the shuttle so it can't have been that which changed peoples minds on how to play the game.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby feem » Thu May 11, 2017 7:29 pm #292378

Massa100 wrote:Security is for people who need a power binge.


When it comes to antags, there's very little epistemological distinction between security and antagonists. They both exist to fulfill a need to exert power and will over others. It's just that one of them is natural to the game and applies itself to the game populace at large in a more or less arbitrary fashion, wandering the station and smacking people around, and the other ones wear red.

Antagonists are _more_ free to engage in power trips than security are. The only thing that you're hinging on is that people who play security choose to do so, and people who play antags do so in a lottery. But, then, a lot of people suicide, ghost, or idle out when they don't get antag, so I'd argue that it works out about the same way anyway.

I'd also argue that every department which has a unique role which they defend their right to engage in is equally "power bingey." That'd be every head role, and things like chemistry or mining. Even inside a department, people have power trips: I'M WORKING TOXINS GET OUT REEEEE

I agree with you that there are a lot of people who play really overbearing security officers and captains, but chalking it up to just power tripping ignores the fact that we have rules on the books that literally let anyone power trip anytime they want to (defending their department), and a role in the game which is nothing but empowering the player to do anything they want (antag roles).

Imbalance is a natural part of this game.

All that having been said, I feel that it's folly to artificially increase the length of the round OR to artificially shorten the length of the round. If I catch someone calling for no reason, I'll usually talk to them about it. If I catch someone recalling repeatedly for no reason, I'll usually talk to them about it.

In my experience, rounds typically last until players become uncomfortable with the status of the station, and EVERY SINGLE TIME someone will complain because their department is fine.

It's about will of the masses, not will of the dude who's ALMOST FINISHED his fourth phazon. If you're willing to risk your precious pixels for the round, gather a posse and push for the outcome that you want. As nonharmfully as possible, of course. I mean, don't break the rules.
Last edited by feem on Thu May 11, 2017 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby D&B » Thu May 11, 2017 7:44 pm #292391

Massa100 wrote: We shouldn't base this discussion on the inability of a garbage sec team to do anything. Security is for people who need a power binge.



Well eat shit too nigger
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[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Nilons » Thu May 11, 2017 7:54 pm #292394

D&B wrote:
Massa100 wrote: We shouldn't base this discussion on the inability of a garbage sec team to do anything. Security is for people who need a power binge.



Well eat shit too nigger


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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Screemonster » Thu May 11, 2017 7:59 pm #292397

Some modes, calling the shuttle might be better as an explicit loss condition but still allow the option.

Like, rev. Allow the shuttle, but if the heads leave on it, it counts as abandoning the station. If there are still heads/headrevs alive on the station when the shuttle docks, it's a "you all suck" stalemate. Might allow for !FUN! rev tactics like causing just enough chaos for a shuttle call that makes the heads want to leave, but not enough to tip their hand that it's actually a revolution.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby ohnopigeons » Thu May 11, 2017 8:19 pm #292406

bandit wrote:if only there was an engineering and medical staff

like, the point of the game has shifted from "try to hold the station together while antags try to thwart you at that, calling the shuttle means admitting defeat" and that is sad


Engineering can't reconstruct the entire station after it's been mass max-capped bombed. They never have and never will.

Similarly medical can't do anything if the medbay is nonexistent and all the doctors are dead. And boy, is the medbay a popular bombing target.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Massa100 » Thu May 11, 2017 9:08 pm #292435

ohnopigeons wrote:
bandit wrote:if only there was an engineering and medical staff

like, the point of the game has shifted from "try to hold the station together while antags try to thwart you at that, calling the shuttle means admitting defeat" and that is sad


Engineering can't reconstruct the entire station after it's been mass max-capped bombed. They never have and never will.

Similarly medical can't do anything if the medbay is nonexistent and all the doctors are dead. And boy, is the medbay a popular bombing target.

I personally haven't even seen a bombing go down in all of 2017. It's rare, it doesn't happen. Nobody does it any more.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby cedarbridge » Thu May 11, 2017 10:08 pm #292466

Massa100 wrote:
ohnopigeons wrote:
bandit wrote:if only there was an engineering and medical staff

like, the point of the game has shifted from "try to hold the station together while antags try to thwart you at that, calling the shuttle means admitting defeat" and that is sad


Engineering can't reconstruct the entire station after it's been mass max-capped bombed. They never have and never will.

Similarly medical can't do anything if the medbay is nonexistent and all the doctors are dead. And boy, is the medbay a popular bombing target.

I personally haven't even seen a bombing go down in all of 2017. It's rare, it doesn't happen. Nobody does it any more.

Its happened enough for people to get tired of it, really.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby InsaneHyena » Fri May 12, 2017 12:51 am #292562

Just had a round, where cult was spotted early. Immediately, red alert shuttle was called. The round lasted less than half an hour. This shit needs to stop.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Togopal » Fri May 12, 2017 2:27 am #292594

InsaneHyena wrote:Just had a round, where cult was spotted early. Immediately, red alert shuttle was called. The round lasted less than half an hour. This shit needs to stop.


Don't get spotted early :lol:
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Fri May 12, 2017 2:30 am #292595

InsaneHyena wrote:Just had a round, where cult was spotted early. Immediately, red alert shuttle was called. The round lasted less than half an hour. This shit needs to stop.


https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/27104

Manifest spirits just got even stronger so it is unlikely that security will stop running

I don't want to fight literally unlimited armed people.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby InsaneHyena » Fri May 12, 2017 3:04 am #292600

Don't get spotted early

I wasn't a cultist, but it still annoyed me. Fighting cult is gameplay. Why should we not play the game? Because captain didn't get antag this round?
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Togopal » Fri May 12, 2017 3:12 am #292603

InsaneHyena wrote:
Don't get spotted early

I wasn't a cultist, but it still annoyed me. Fighting cult is gameplay. Why should we not play the game? Because captain didn't get antag this round?


No role with mindshield implants can get antag so when you set your role to Captain/HoS/anything in security you know what you're getting into

Cultist is not fun for security as other people said and really the only people to blame if shuttle is called early is the people who get spotted when you dont have any members and are incapable of recalling
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby bandit » Fri May 12, 2017 5:54 am #292655

I shut down a cult as HoS just a few days ago with no warden and a comdom captain, it is possible
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby ohnopigeons » Fri May 12, 2017 5:59 am #292656

No one said it wasn't possible but time is definitely a factor. If you fail to shut them down early and completely they get bigger and bigger until you can't handle them at all.

For those sec who are not capable of gitting gud, going nazi is their only alternative if you disallow/discourage shuttle calling.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby RandomMarine » Fri May 12, 2017 8:36 am #292678

We have multiple game modes where the crew's win condition boils down to that the shuttle arrives at central command before the antagonists complete their objectives.

And with many players eschewing roleplay in favor of gameplay, it's no surprise that we have heads taking the option that gives them the best chances of victory, which is to red alert and call the shuttle ASAP.

The only solutions I can see is to agree on some new policy to crack down on detrimental play-to-win playstyles (Which is a hell of a pipe dream), or re-designing/removing those modes.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Massa100 » Fri May 12, 2017 2:17 pm #292722

Kor wrote:
InsaneHyena wrote:Just had a round, where cult was spotted early. Immediately, red alert shuttle was called. The round lasted less than half an hour. This shit needs to stop.


https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/27104

Manifest spirits just got even stronger so it is unlikely that security will stop running

I don't want to fight literally unlimited armed people.

Losing is part of the game.

You have a taser. Shoot them once and it's over. Flashbangs too. Never once in my life have I seen manifest spirit used.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Fri May 12, 2017 2:27 pm #292728

>shoot ghost man with a taser
>2 other ghost mans behind him
>shoot those ghost men as well
>they all have effectively 200 hp because of their 50% resistance to lasers and melee
>expend all my ammo from like 4 guns killing them/stunning them
>all their gear evaporates so I don't even get anything for my trouble
>they've instantly respawned and run back and are now smashing the brig door down before the first gun is even charged
>this repeats forever

Exciting! Losing can be fun, but not when the game effectively robs you of all agency by making your actions meaningless. You don't even get the satisfaction of taking any enemies with you because your enemies don't die.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby onleavedontatme » Fri May 12, 2017 2:29 pm #292730

I mean you can keep whining at players and crying about how mean and bad they are for no reason if you want but it won't change their behavior. You've flat out said you don't care if one team in the death match isn't having fun though so I guess you're just going to be confused and frustrated forever when they don't care if you're not having fun either.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Wyzack » Fri May 12, 2017 2:37 pm #292735

Massas i have the sneaking suspicion that you think the people explaining why no one wants to play against your ebig team antags are actually the ones calling the shuttle rather than just people trying to explain prevalent player behaviors.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby CPTANT » Fri May 12, 2017 5:40 pm #292828

Like I said before I think what is discussed here is a fundamental design flaw of SS13 as a whole.

It can only be solved by remaking the game to be more challenging and rewarding outside of antagonist interactions.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby ShadowDimentio » Fri May 12, 2017 6:29 pm #292857

There are two sides to this coin. On one we have the people that see one red paper and call the shuttle 20 minutes in. On the other we have people recalling at the hour mark when the station is bombed, sec is dead, anarchy has descended and antags are blatantly roaming the halls slaughtering all they see.

Neither of these sides are good, we need to find the happy medium with players, we don't need to start gouging modes or tacking on stupid round delay features.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby InsaneHyena » Fri May 12, 2017 7:14 pm #292884

I envy your ability to state the obvious.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Qbopper » Fri May 12, 2017 7:57 pm #292906

InsaneHyena wrote:I envy your ability to state the obvious.


I envy your ability to start shit over literally nothing

CPTANT wrote:Like I said before I think what is discussed here is a fundamental design flaw of SS13 as a whole.

It can only be solved by remaking the game to be more challenging and rewarding outside of antagonist interactions.


I don't know if "remaking the game" is necessary but I can agree that it would require some radical design changes
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby CPTANT » Fri May 12, 2017 9:38 pm #292948

Qbopper wrote:
InsaneHyena wrote:I envy your ability to state the obvious.


I envy your ability to start shit over literally nothing

CPTANT wrote:Like I said before I think what is discussed here is a fundamental design flaw of SS13 as a whole.

It can only be solved by remaking the game to be more challenging and rewarding outside of antagonist interactions.


I don't know if "remaking the game" is necessary but I can agree that it would require some radical design changes


In the least it would be a rework of the TG branch of the game. In a way planetstation already does this of course.

I think a shuttle should either be called after the crew completes a set of objectives or after a fixed time and the game should be structured around that.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby DrPillzRedux » Fri May 12, 2017 10:28 pm #292965

Putting an artificial length time on a round is not a good idea.
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a correct post by pillz

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby ohnopigeons » Fri May 12, 2017 10:30 pm #292966

ANTAGS Image CAN Image RECALL Image THE Image SHUTTLE Image
Image

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Qbopper » Fri May 12, 2017 11:33 pm #292986

THIS Image MEME Image IS Image DEAD Image BECAUSE Image OF Image YOU
Limey wrote:its too late.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby oranges » Sat May 13, 2017 9:05 am #293101

Qbopper wrote:
InsaneHyena wrote:I envy your ability to state the obvious.


I envy your ability to start shit over literally nothing

I envy your ability to get mad over someone blowing them into the next dimension

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Qbopper » Sat May 13, 2017 2:18 pm #293145

Qbopper wrote:I envy your ability to start shit over literally nothing
Limey wrote:its too late.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Scott » Sat May 13, 2017 3:34 pm #293186

I like the title, nothing else needed to be said by the OP.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby lzimann » Sat May 13, 2017 3:48 pm #293189

Scott wrote:I like the title, nothing else needed to be said by the OP.


Title can be a bit misleading though. You read "shuttle calls shouldn't be because the game happened", so what? We should only call the shuttle when the game DOESN'T happen? When antags are not doing anything/everyone is bored because nothing is going on?

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby CPTANT » Sat May 13, 2017 5:35 pm #293218

The title is very dandy but it solves nothing.

There is no "easy fix"
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Cobby » Sat May 13, 2017 6:20 pm #293232

If you want the shuttle to not be called you have to take some of the crutches each antagonist has that makes veteran players roll the round, which means there's a larger potential for new players to get trashed on and pseudoextended, albeit some people wouldn't mind that.
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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Togopal » Sun May 14, 2017 7:48 pm #293601

When the same people who call security powertrippers are the same people who would murderbone with a desword instead of doing anything interesting when they roll antag Image
Image

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Qbopper » Mon May 15, 2017 1:30 am #293702

Togopal wrote:When the same people who call security powertrippers are the same people who would murderbone with a desword instead of doing anything interesting when they roll antag

Image


this is certainly true for a couple of people but I don't see how it's relevant to the current discussion about shuttle calls
Limey wrote:its too late.

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Togopal » Mon May 15, 2017 2:21 am #293711

Qbopper wrote:
this is certainly true for a couple of people but I don't see how it's relevant to the current discussion about shuttle calls

Sorry, I saw OP of this thread murderbone with desword and then call the shuttle ~40 minutes into the round two or three days ago and it reminded me of this thread
Image

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Re: Shuttle Calls shouldn't be because the game happened

Postby Steelpoint » Mon May 15, 2017 10:04 am #293786

Be the only Security member and a cult is spotted early into the round, decide to call a Red Alert evacuation as you have no chance of halting the cult. Get called a shiter in OOC chat after the round for early calling the shuttle...

Unlike condoms, there's no catch all for deciding when its right and not right to call a evacuation. While there will be times where Security and Command have little justification for evacuating because they caught one Traitor, but there will also be times where you have a undermanned security force who decide to cut their losses and pull out early.

Kor made a good point, if you want to stop early shuttle calls, then design game modes that don't rely on fucking over security so hard they decide that the only course of action is to evac early.

If your game mode needs a tool or mechanic to delay or stop the shuttle from being called or evacuating, then that should be a clear sign of a larger issue.
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