Mass Antag Checking

[FantasticFwoosh]

This is a very annoying topic because it basically blocks a large amount of game development on antagonists, conversion modes & new modes on the basis that security will have to be removed like how the recent gang war pr: Hell March actually removed security from the station entirely to just avoid this, and antag deputised everyone else.

It basically entails that security autocratically sets and arrests everyone on a assumption most of the time after meta-confirming the round, then usually tases everyone who rolls by the brig to implant. Its not fun for anybody and its a strategy that strangles both sides from conflict or development as its just easier for security to block off new converts and go loud killing the "actual antagonists."

> Proposed rule : "You are not allowed to mass arrest random members of the station crew unwillingly ((without them co-operating)) without actionable evidence against each person below red alert ((as to give antagonists fair warning they are being hunted))

[Nilons]

Yeah but the reason security has to play that way is because the antags are too strong after a certain point. So what you're proposing is to just fuck security over and make them unfun to play because they lose every round.

[FantasticFwoosh]

If security gets fucked by not being meta, have you thought that maybe the antagonists are too powercrept. Its a pendulum effect right now where we swing between the two maxima's with security being bullshit too strong mass antag checking/mass executing, or failing in security and the antagonists doing too well and snowballing as you describe.

It takes a push of the conditions in the round to go eitherway, but we should actually stop how sharply they reach 1-100 (if one side is blatently rolling the other, that's the round but there is such a thing as TOO forceful)

]

For reference.

[imblyings]

what were you on when you made this thread

what is your real purpose, fwoosh

[J_Madison]

plausible deniable

I wasn't mass arresting sir, I just felt it was necessary to arrest this random guy for looking suspicious and implant him because someone at roundstart yelled viva and got gulagged.

I wasn't random implanting sir, I just felt it was necessary to keep a tracking implant on someone who decided to disarm and slap me twice.

Hey I didn't know it was Rev, or the person I implanted was actually a ling.

Luck is when opportunity and careful planning meet.

I carefully planned to eenie meenie minie moe catch an antag by it's toe, and an opportunity to test came.
So I took it.

[Dr_bee]

From an RP perspective, if it is code blue then sec doesnt even need a reason to search you.

But yeah, antags are a bit too strong at the moment, you have to meta somewhat as sec to just survive to roleplay.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Most security would not know evidence linking to a crime if it bit them on the ass. The whole meta of security is nothing but fallible assumption that exaggerates those suspicions to a zenith as a 'paint with the same brush' approach to just "win" the round.

Under the rule you'd get warned for ban-baiting J_mad arresting fnr during a conversion round, i did not at any point say suspicion, i said evidence. Everyone involved has defensible privacy rights on code blue/green, but sec still needs to do their job. You can't just arrest people lingering outside the brig for being there, and the evidence relies on beforehand rather than post search.

[J_Madison]

Then I'd be contesting the ban as the writer of the detective and a warden guide on the ground I know evidence.

It doesn't even have to brush past me, hell it doesn't even have to make eye contact.

I don't arrest FNR, I arrest because a certain tattle tale isn't punished for shouting "viva" at roundstart.
I arrest because you stashed your ID, started wearing a disguise, stole the soap and the medkit.

I can arrest you for loitering outside of my brig. Why are you outside of my brig in the first place acting all suspicious?

My evidence is why your ass is outside of my brig without an ID on, or why you're trying to tailgate an officer in, or why you're disguised and rolling probable cause outside the brig.

[danno]

hmmmmm it's kind of like conversion antags are bad, and force people into bad, unfun situations
that aren't fun

hmmmm

[J_Madison]

You know danno, that's what haunts me the most when I play sec.

He didn't ask to be a Rev, or a cultist. Someone else forced him to be. Someone forced him against his will to be one.

They had a job, they had a round, they joined the round and wanted to do something.

And they've been forced not to. Make it worse they're forced to do something else.

And now I've got them in cuffs, I'm forcing time away from them, and I'm forcing them to comply with every word I say.

The game would be a nicer place if the cultist flat out told me the poor chemist I've waterboarded with holy water wasn't a cultist. Or I should execute him instead of the innocent scientist.

[CPTANT]

Not implanting people is just unworkable as sec.

If you have the implants I see no reason not to implant everyone you can get.

If they aren't a rev now they will be one shortly, since all it takes is getting flashed once.

[Nilons]

You know danno, that's what haunts me the most when I play sec.

He didn't ask to be a Rev, or a cultist. Someone else forced him to be. Someone forced him against his will to be one.

They had a job, they had a round, they joined the round and wanted to do something.

And they've been forced not to. Make it worse they're forced to do something else.

And now I've got them in cuffs, I'm forcing time away from them, and I'm forcing them to comply with every word I say.

The game would be a nicer place if the cultist flat out told me the poor chemist I've waterboarded with holy water wasn't a cultist. Or I should execute him instead of the innocent scientist.

jmad you can turn off being some antags

[confused rock]

Nilons cant read confirmed

[Nilons]

Nilons cant read confirmed

rock hasnt played ss13 and doesnt know you can deconvert people who didnt start out cultist or rev confirmed

[CPTANT]

Mass implanting isn't even antag checking per definition.

it is more "let's prevent everyone from becoming one in the first place"

[FantasticFwoosh]

Mass implanting isn't even antag checking per definition.

it is more "let's prevent everyone from becoming one in the first place"

By definition of checking if they fall over and shoot out a line in chat saying they have been deconverted is a pretty valid check, even without evidence which is the issue im trying to press when sec actively pursues people fnr doing their daily business to tase and cuff them, drag back to the brig and undergo in the forceful implant.

[kevinz000]

Nilons cant read confirmed

rock hasnt played ss13 and doesnt know you can deconvert people who didnt start out cultist or rev confirmed

Seems like you don't know that you can deconvert starting cultists.
Hm.

[kevinz000]

Mass implanting isn't even antag checking per definition.

it is more "let's prevent everyone from becoming one in the first place"

By definition of checking if they fall over and shoot out a line in chat saying they have been deconverted is a pretty valid check, even without evidence which is the issue im trying to press when sec actively pursues people fnr doing their daily business to tase and cuff them, drag back to the brig and undergo in the forceful implant.

Or you can stop proposing to cripple security even harder because antags failed to get good.

[BeeSting12]

it's almost as if you should try and get away from security if you have contraband or stash it or you might face the consequences.

[Sven12]

Why the fuck do these cops keep arresting and implanting random people, they didn't do anything illegal!

He says during red alert, while security and heads of staff are being axe murdered in the hallways by lynch mobs that are indistinguishable from normal crew.

Yeah clearly some metagaming going on here.

[Nilons]

Nilons cant read confirmed

rock hasnt played ss13 and doesnt know you can deconvert people who didnt start out cultist or rev confirmed

Seems like you don't know that you can deconvert starting cultists.
Hm.

the jig is fucking up i dont really play this game

[FantasticFwoosh]

Mass implanting isn't even antag checking per definition.

it is more "let's prevent everyone from becoming one in the first place"

By definition of checking if they fall over and shoot out a line in chat saying they have been deconverted is a pretty valid check, even without evidence which is the issue im trying to press when sec actively pursues people fnr doing their daily business to tase and cuff them, drag back to the brig and undergo in the forceful implant.

Or you can stop proposing to cripple security even harder because antags failed to get good.

If they fail to get good, then they'll flop around and leave behind evidence, or just plainly get slipped up called out and then security can deal with the real cabal of antagonists, distancing out the game and making it longer is the summary objective for both sides rather than determining a clear outcome by 10 minute mark, given how fast cults can take root.

> Revolutions are easy to spot, there are alternative ways to tackle it, and people who do not want to be converted (basic rules dont run into antags, so its either prepare to defend yourself OR come to brig for getting implanted) don't have to be. Sec smashes revs with predjudice as often happens.

> Cults are more difficult, and also recently have become very very fast in how they play so really desperately need to be nerfed.

[kevinz000]

Fwoosh you can whine about metagamecurity ruining the conversion antags when it's not necessary to do so to survive the round and maybe, just maybe, save the station.

[ShadowDimentio]

This is fine.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Fwoosh you can whine about metagamecurity ruining the conversion antags when it's not necessary to do so to survive the round and maybe, just maybe, save the station.

Im sorry i forgot you need to win as security Mekhi. Win by ultimately shutting down the round to a forgone conclusion with directionless mindshield imlpants at total random for the slightest of offences and buckshot bullets applied lethally to the skull before the antagonists do, hence why the whole thing needs to be looked at again if thats not what is wanted.



> Just leave on the shuttle, the only agreeable forgone conclusion that antagonists can actually disrupt.

[oranges]

Why does Jmad make every security thread about his actions when he plays sec? Can he please be jobbanned

[Wyzack]

You are right fwoosh. They should let themselves get killed so the cult can have fun

[FantasticFwoosh]

The other half of the coin is that coders have explicitly made it a case where they need to push the fastest round resolution to stop security bluntly steamrolling them with the applied shakedown tactics of just working through the haystack.

If security is not a risk cults will get nerfed and re-prioritized to longer more invested gameplay where bases etc will matter substantially more than who has the most powerful XYZ tool availible to end the round. Ghost roles bringing the dead into the round (be it clock posibrains, shades *and constructs* or blood rune ghosts) are there as rush tactics to this extent to force the equilibrium while security has no such reinforcements without deputising folks.

[tacolizard]

In real life, if there's a mutiny, would the station security really believe that urist mcgreyshirt is innocent and has privacy protections? If the entire station is mutinying, then mass arrests would be the logical solution.

[christ110]

I think this largely boils down to our issue of playing an antag is generally viewed upon as more fun than playing as a non-antag so for everyone except security and the chaplain, the crew doesnt care about whichever snowball convert mode we have.
We could fix this by making antags less fun (bad idea)
Or by making non-antag more fun to play as.

[christ110]

let me explain, that because of this snowballing, security is encouraged to begin mass antag checking asap.
kor is right in that its not fun to fight against cults, because they snowball too much.