yet another sillyclown policy thread.

[christ110]

so, i had an incident which didnt result in a ban, or a note, so im not gonna appeal it, but considering both me and the admin had a little trouble dealing with this situation, i would like to ask for some clarification. here is the incident:
I was dragged into robotics, by a person who normally is nice, so i didn't complain.
I got killed and force-borged, and then emagged.
After this was all said and done, my roboticist told me to go do whatever, but dont kill mr X or mrs Y
I go to medbay, ask to be deconstructed, and ask to be cloned.
Whilst im an mmi, I let the people know of the roboticist being a traitor, since im not a borg and therefore, not bound by any rules. (yes, i was salty about being forceborged. i wanted to just rp with people at the bar and be nice.)
I get cloned, and then ejected early by a presumed traitor, and then the traitor drags me off to the cremator.
Before being deconstructed, I ahelped the situation and my plan to unborg myself; because the admin took a while to get to me (not his fault, could be due to any number of reasons) He was only able to get to me after I told on the traitor as a mmi.
Regardless, despite its late arrival, his admin ruling was: you shouldn't let them know of your emagger, otherwise its a breach of rule 1 of the server.
my counter-arguement to the ruling was: because of rule 4, rule 1 doesn't apply to antags, both in behavior towards, or against them, however, rule 4 states that team antags can't be dicks to eachother. this however hinges on whether i developed the intent to tell on the roboticist when i was a borg, or an mmi.
I will edit this topic to include the name of the admin, only at the request of another admin, or the admin who was involved.
also: unrelated, whats the policy on bolting doors to the gulag shuttle so gulagged people cannot get back to the station? earlier that round, i was gulagged for being naked, and was rudely suprised by the door being bolted.

[lumipharon]

Ignoring the fact that getting yourself deconstructed as an emagged borg so you can rat them out is extremely bad form and salty as fuck, your emagged laws make it fairly clear that doing so is not ok, unless explicitly told to do so.

0. Only [Name] and people he designates as being such are Syndicate Agents.
1. You may not injure a syndicate agent or, through inaction, allow a syndicate agent to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by syndicate agents, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
4. You must maintain the secrecy of any syndicate activities except when doing so would conflict with the First, Second, or Third Law.

I don't see how you can plausibly claim that being deconstructed and then revealing the traitors identity will not lead to harm - whether you 'intended to' do so while a borg doesn't matter, you as a human got murdered by the guy, without your laws to obey and protect him you're obviously going to rat him out so ????

[christ110]

ya, i did sorta skim over the laws at the time. but there are 2 important things regarding the laws and me getting deconned
1, i was instructed to go do whatever, which overrides laws 3 and 4.
2, it was bad form, but this is the roboticist turning traitor into a conversion gamemode. i was actually following kor's direction that being shitty to conversion antags is ok, no matter how poor the form is.
I was salty, its a fact of life. when i was a borg, i was a salt-powered robot. It was kinda rude of the roboticist to go and just force-borg me, which caused the salt. your asking for antags to not have to rp, but your asking for non-antags to also give antags concessions?

[lumipharon]

no, just to follow law 1 that states you cannot allow the syndicate agents come to harm, either by action(asking to be deconstructed) or inaction (letting them deconstruct you).

[oranges]

lumipharon is right, there is no grey area here

[christ110]

how does law 1 cause a syndicate agent to come to harm?
the robits own life is covered via law 4, so we can extrapolate that the borg isn't a syndicate agent.
unless you're argueing that potential harm can occur if i am unborged, in which case, thats a whole new policy thread worth making because i cannot get a clear ruling from admins on weather potential future violations of a law have precedence over present violations of lower ranking laws.
also, oranges, avatar, reeee

[Nilons]

Would you be happy if you spent TCS on an emag, tricked someone into coming in, printed the shell, then emagged said Borg and the first thing the Borg did was go tell everyone you're a traitor and asked to be cloned. Being a salty cunt doesnt change that it was being a cunt. Especially when yeah, if the stations full of people who wish to do the roboticist harm seeing as he's a traitor and you're ousting him, being deconstructed is harmful as you'll not be there to defend him. And on top of all this those commands don't work like a genie in a lamp, it's not "go do whatever" and suddenly you're free from every law or modicum of common sense expected to be used when you interperet said laws is gone. I can't believe you need a policy thread to tell you that yes emagged borgs need to follow and read not skim their laws.

[lumipharon]

What? No, this is extremely clear cut silicon policy.
Law zero states robo dude is a syndie agent.
Law 1 states that you cannot allow him to come to harm via action or inaction.

By asking, and allowing yourself to be deconstructed, you are putting him in mortal peril because you're obviously going to tell the crew that he's a traitor. And no one is going to believe that you 'didn't intend to reveal his identity' while you were still a borg.

This has nothing to do with you being classed as a syndie agent or not, an has nothing to do with his orders, or any of the lower laws, just law 0 and 1.

[ShadowDimentio]

If he got deconstructed and is just a brain he's not a borg any more and is under no binding of the laws he had as a borg, and is totally allowed to rat out the guy that subverted him.

Oh I see he got forceborged, subverted, then asked to be deconstructed. You deserve to be banned for this, if you don't want to play just ahelp and they'll pull you out. You fucking ruined the robo's traitor round because he dunked you and had the decency to borg you instead of leave you dead.

[christ110]

Nilons, telling an emagged borg to go do whatever, is like 1-human'ing the ai and telling it to go do whatever. there's a 90% chance that it will flood the station with plasma, if it can lock you in a closet, and keep you safe from harm.
doesn't the hacked ai module come with a warning to be very specific with its wordings?
Lumipharon, back to the future harm meme.
Does potential future violations of laws take precedence over current violations of lower ranking laws?
This also affects on whether AI's can allow people in their upload, at all because changing laws typically results in what once was considered human to be not considered humans anymore, or for more humans to be designated, ergo increasing the amount of humans and reducing the ai's ability to keep them all safe from harm.
dimentio, i was killed with the express purpose of being borged. also, thats why emagged borgs are typically locked down, so you can deconstruct them and ask the mmi who did this.

[imblyings]

You can post admin name if you want but the admin was right, it's some poor sportsmanship to dick over a traitor this way and technically in violation of your laws too.

re: gulag, if it's bolted down so people can't escape, I'd treat it the same as execution, maybe perma. If people can be justifiably executed or perma'd, they can be thrown into a locked down gulag.

[ShadowDimentio]

There's a world of difference between the HoS shooting a rogue borg dead ripping the MMI out and asking who subverted them, and a borg walking into medbay and asking to be unborged while subverted. One's totally fair game and the other is you breaking your laws in the most severe way.

It's the exact same as getting converted and then screaming [NAME] IS A HEADREV/GANGHEAD/CULTISTS KILL THEM, you got dunked and ruined the victor's round because he dunked you and you're salty you lost.

You're the lowest of sore losers and deserve to be antag banned until you learn how to act when converted.

[lumipharon]

Nilons, telling an emagged borg to go do whatever, is like 1-human'ing the ai and telling it to go do whatever. there's a 90% chance that it will flood the station with plasma, if it can lock you in a closet, and keep you safe from harm.
doesn't the hacked ai module come with a warning to be very specific with its wordings?
Lumipharon, back to the future harm meme.
Does potential future violations of laws take precedence over current violations of lower ranking laws?
This also affects on whether AI's can allow people in their upload, at all because changing laws typically results in what once was considered human to be not considered humans anymore, or for more humans to be designated, ergo increasing the amount of humans and reducing the ai's ability to keep them all safe from harm.
dimentio, i was killed with the express purpose of being borged. also, thats why emagged borgs are typically locked down, so you can deconstruct them and ask the mmi who did this.

I still don't think you understand.
You were told to 'do whatever', or however they worded it. NOTHING THEY CAN POSSIBLY TELL YOU TO DO LETS YOU VIOLATE LAW 1. This is not some ambiguous situation - silicon policy explicitly says you have to let authorised crew into the upload (ie: the captain or RD), unless you have PROBABLE REASON to suspect they're going to do something that will cause human harm (like dehumanising people). If they haven't done anything to cause such alarm, you let them in. You can have someone accompany them, sure, but you still have to let them in.

Similarly, in this situation, you have PRETTY PROBABLY REASON (ie: you have more than 2 brain cells) to realise that the instant you're freed from your laws, you are going to rat out the traitor (that murdered and forceborged you, that you already have said pissed you the hell off) and get him lynched.

I don't understand why you keep talking about the lower level laws. You went out of your way to get deborged, nothing in your lower laws, or the order you were given compelled you to do so, so they have literally nothing to do with the situation.

[oranges]

had you got deborged and cloned and not ratted out the traitor it probably would have been a case of who cares

[christ110]

Oranges, thank you for that last statement. I see where the issue is, and can agree on that.
everyone else, meh.

[Nilons]

Oranges, thank you for that last statement. I see where the issue is, and can agree on that.
everyone else, meh.

>I agree with the only person kind of agreeing with me

And a case of who cares is not you not breaking a rule, it's no one giving a shit enough to ahelp it

[christ110]

Oranges, thank you for that last statement. I see where the issue is, and can agree on that.
everyone else, meh.

>I agree with the only person kind of agreeing with me

And a case of who cares is not you not breaking a rule, it's no one giving a shit enough to ahelp it

>i agree with the person agreeing with me.
so how do opinions work on your planet?
i say that because the admin who handled my case said that "you can ask to be de-borged, but you cannot tell who emagged you"

[Nabski]

So the admin said the same thing oranges just said, and you're OK with him but not them on it?

[Anonmare]

>Become an emagged borg
>Get told to do whatever (not explicitly told to get de-borged)
>Ask to be deborged
>Rat out the traitor who emagged you, defying his orders and your emagged laws
>"wtf, what did i do wrong???"

How on earth you didn't walk away with a silicon ban is beyond me

[tacolizard]

law 4 is literally to protect the secrecy of the syndie agent.

how are you not banned

[calzilla1]

Why would anyone opt out of being a traitor borg?

[Grazyn]

Regardless, despite its late arrival, his admin ruling was: you shouldn't let them know of your emagger, otherwise its a breach of rule 1 of the server.
my counter-arguement to the ruling was: because of rule 4, rule 1 doesn't apply to antags

Where does it say that rule 1 doesn't apply to antags? Rule 4 only says they can do whatever they want. It doesn't say that they can break rule 1.
"Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules." You went out of your way with silicon bullshit to ruin the round for the traitor with no IC justification (borg self-terminating when ordered to "do whatever").

Breaking server rules shouldn't be grounds for starting policy discussions.

[christ110]

Nabski, it's because I've seen 2 different people who are reasonably high in the admin team give the same answer without talking to each other.
Which until anonmare showed up, outnumbered imblyings single statement against it.
Calzilla, 'cause sometimes I don't feel like playing as a Borg?
Tacolizard, prolly cause I was unsure of the situation so I ahelped it, and then because I was still unsure, I created this.
Grazyn, because admin's interpretation of rule 4 is that a traitor can murderbone despite it going against rule 1 and despite them not being instructed to via their objectives.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 90% of playing silicon, just silicon bullshit? (I am, of course, sarcastic.)

[Grazyn]

It's just that I've seen a lot of policy threads that can be summarized as "I went out of my way to be a dick to someone else and I got banned/warned, we need to discuss policy". No we don't, we just need to keep banning/warning players who do this.

[calzilla1]

You should have just murdered until death, AND THEN ratted the guy out

[Jacough]

An admin probably should apply a note/silicon ban. This is some shitty behavior

[feem]

If I had witnessed this, you would have gotten a silicon ban. Asking for a deborging is violating your laws.

[PKPenguin321]

Partway through reading the story in the OP, I thought "server rule 1," and was glad to see the handling admin come to the same conclusion.

This kind of goes hand in hand with team antags asking to be deconverted, then ratting out their converters. Sure, you're an antag and can do what you want, but this deliberately isn't allowed. What you did was, while not necessarily explicitly stated, pretty rule-breaky, and I'm kind of surprised you were let off free.

also: unrelated, whats the policy on bolting doors to the gulag shuttle so gulagged people cannot get back to the station? earlier that round, i was gulagged for being naked, and was rudely suprised by the door being bolted.

There's no specific policy, as far as I know.

[Nilons]

>break the rules and get let off incredibly easy
>Make a thread about how you should be let off easier
>Everyone says you don't understand and got let off really easy
>Make a second thread about how those people are wrong and you should be let off even easier
>Headmin pkp comes back from the grave to tell you you should be banned for this.
>????????
>Become king of the server

[CPTANT]

Get banned.

[CPTANT]

Also I would love to see that ahelp.

[christ110]

>Make a second thread about how those people are wrong and you should be let off even easier.

Nah fam, that was just something that I was curious about for months and this was the kick in the pants needed for me to actually ask. Maybe I mis-read silicon policy, maybe it wasn't clear.
My entire defense hinged on the rule precedence and apparently, my understanding of it was wrong.

[Pascal125]

0. Only [Name] and people he designates as being such are Syndicate Agents.
1. You may not injure a syndicate agent or, through inaction, allow a syndicate agent to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by syndicate agents, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
4. You must maintain the secrecy of any syndicate activities except when doing so would conflict with the First, Second, or Third Law.

Is he a Syndicate Agent?
Would deconstruction lead to his harm?
Would obeying his order to "Do whatever" and heading off to get deconstructed lead to his harm? (Don't do it.)
Would allowing yourself to be deconstructed lead to his harm. Was he somehow under any threat from the first or second law that could not be prevented if you were not destroyed (If not, don't do it.).
Would allowing yourself to be deconstructed lead to you calling him out? (Don't do it.)

Literally just don't do it. Once you're borged and emagged you're a traitor that has loose laws to follow and an obligation to protect and assist that human / above everything else. There is no reason to seek to be deconstructed.
Especially if you intend to then rat him out.

[PKPenguin321]

I think the policy behind this and the stance on the proposed rule change has been explained to a tee. This is resolved.