What CAN security get in trouble for these days?

[Oldman Robustin]

Bottom post of the previous page:

1) Literally do nothing except report crime early in the shift

2) Sec repeatedly and wordlessly stuns me as I stand still in maint

3) I bitch about it on radio and someone drags me away

4) Another officer chases me down and stuns me again, I shout "SEC HAS TURNED ON THE CREW! FIGHT BACK!"

5) Sec harmbatons me all the way to perma and then tosses me in a sealed cell

6) Get told its valid because I tried to incite a riot

At this point why even have a brig? Just give every officer a box full of lethal injection because they can apparently sprint around maint shooting anyone they like without saying anything and then kill me if they point out that I'm acting more like an antag than the actual fucking antags that round (this was actually true). No wonder posing as security as a ling is GODMODE - I dont' blame 99% of our players for not wanting to even touch a sec officer, even one with an armblade, when even sneezing in their direction is now grounds for taking you out of the round.

How about we start enforcing Rule 1 on Officers again? Or better yet can we get rid of "random arrests" under code blue. Someone slipped in the word change in a PR from "Probable" to "Random" searches under Code Blue and that timing has basically coincided with all of my worst encounters with security when security has the greenlight to fuck with a good 25% of your round for absolutely no reason, it leads to this sort of shitty policy where sec can take a big shit on your round for absolutely no reason but also take a nice permanent shit on your round if you so much as look at them funny.

[Grazyn]

I don't think conversion modes are a good example of bad sec because they are clusterfuck TDM modes, and you usually have non-converted imperfect players messing with security during these rounds as well.

[XDTM]

J_mad just because the other party started the conflict it doesn't mean that you get to apply the maximum punishment.

This whole thread seems to be basically pointing at applying the proper punishment for the crime. Illegal entry to secure areas should be perma, random greytidery should range from brig to gulag to perma, murder/antaggery can be dealt with execution. Self-defense applies, of course.

What is wrong is the "but he could be a dangerous antag", "but he'll be back for revenge", "but his metafriends will bust him out anyway" mentality that means you can tack on imaginary future crimes to anyone you want, and from these crimes that have never happened ("can't risk it") you can then go straight to execution.

[J_Madison]

J_mad just because the other party started the conflict it doesn't mean that you get to apply the maximum punishment.

This whole thread seems to be basically pointing at applying the proper punishment for the crime. Illegal entry to secure areas should be perma, random greytidery should range from brig to gulag to perma, murder/antaggery can be dealt with execution. Self-defense applies, of course.

What is wrong is the "but he could be a dangerous antag", "but he'll be back for revenge", "but his metafriends will bust him out anyway" mentality that means you can tack on imaginary future crimes to anyone you want, and from these crimes that have never happened ("can't risk it") you can then go straight to execution.

ah

but the paradox to "you don't get to apply maximum punishment" is the counterargument:
they didn't have to do x.
they made a choice to do y.
they started it.

and ultimately, the wise man will tell you this
I have never once been brigged or harassed by security for one reason and one reason only. I made a choice and I didn't have to do it.

I'm not saying overly harsh punishments are fine, but there is a serious degree of mitigating circumstances when you have someone with X+ years of reputation for being intolerable to deal with, and the crime in context was initiated freely and by their first choice.

[XDTM]

J_mad just because the other party started the conflict it doesn't mean that you get to apply the maximum punishment.

This whole thread seems to be basically pointing at applying the proper punishment for the crime. Illegal entry to secure areas should be perma, random greytidery should range from brig to gulag to perma, murder/antaggery can be dealt with execution. Self-defense applies, of course.

What is wrong is the "but he could be a dangerous antag", "but he'll be back for revenge", "but his metafriends will bust him out anyway" mentality that means you can tack on imaginary future crimes to anyone you want, and from these crimes that have never happened ("can't risk it") you can then go straight to execution.

ah

but the paradox to "you don't get to apply maximum punishment" is the counterargument:
they didn't have to do x.
they made a choice to do y.
they started it.

and ultimately, the wise man will tell you this
I have never once been brigged or harassed by security for one reason and one reason only. I made a choice and I didn't have to do it.

"They started it" only means they get punished for it, not that the punishment is as high as you want to make it. Punishment has to fit the crime.

I'm not saying overly harsh punishments are fine, but there is a serious degree of mitigating circumstances when you have someone with X+ years of reputation for being intolerable to deal with, and the crime in context was initiated freely and by their first choice.

Technically metagrudge. Apply the proper punishment, don't increase it because it's someone you know.


That said, i agree with punishing constant serial greytiding as well, but it should be handled ooc, not with ic metagrudging.

[TheColdTurtle]

Nuke the thread and start anew

[Slignerd]

What is wrong is the [...] "but he'll be back for revenge", "but his metafriends will bust him out anyway" mentality

Well, if you're currently already dealing with an overwhelming, all access tide, there's honestly nothing unreasonable about either of these.

[onleavedontatme]

if you're currently already dealing with an overwhelming, all access tide

You are still literally the only one talking about that

[Slignerd]

I'm just saying that the mentality that's called a "problem" is actually simply common sense in the actual in-game context.

[kevinz000]

greyshits spawns shitcurity
shitcurity spawns greyshits
and then there's shitters who do either of the two without provocation because they want to be a shit
welcome to the cycle of shit.

[onleavedontatme]

I'm just saying that the mentality that's called a "problem" is actually simply common sense in the actual in-game context.

You are literally the only one talking about that context. Nobody in this thread is saying security shouldn't kill rioters

[Nilons]

Kevinz is right as fuck, its a symbiotic relationship and when one tries to take more than its due the other pulls back. But the end result here should be make perma less victim to circumstantial destruction and apply perma more, that way people in perma will have more people to play with and make it less take you out of the round more put you with the other goons we caught. As well as being brigged or arrested, even if not just or wrongfully done, is not grounds to go after the cop and puts you at risk of being ahelped and dunked.

[Segmented]

What is wrong is the [...] "but he'll be back for revenge", "but his metafriends will bust him out anyway" mentality

Well, if you're currently already dealing with an overwhelming, all access tide, there's honestly nothing unreasonable about either of these.

I'm starting to think your idea of an unstoppable greytide is a single Assistant with a stunprod.

[Slignerd]

Want my idea of unstoppable greytide? Let me give you an example.

Round starts, no captain. One of the assistant uses that to break into captain's office and get the spare, as they do every single round if a captain or HoP aren't present (or even if they are, then they just don't succeed as effortlessly). Then, they go to arrivals checkpoint and send PDA messages to every single assistant or even some more tidey roles with nothing to do, such as librarian or chaplain.

Captain arrives no more than 15 minutes into a shift - less than you'd expect for everything to go to shit already. Random people grabbing whatever they want from captain's locker, report of assistants and a chaplain tresspassing science and engineering, supermatter crystal explodes in the meantime. When arrested, everyone screams shitcurity - making me really nervous about ever taking these handcuffs off their hands at all.

While processing brigged prisoners, random people wander into the brig because they happen to have access, so doors must be bolted to prevent them from walking in from wherever they want. Processing is a pain, because there's no ID console in the brig, and you end up having tons of all access ID to take care of. Even when you execute people who are too much trouble, that doesn't get them off your head - because there'll always be another tider willing to spite security, grab the corpses and clone them.

In the process an admin might get involved and, trying to avoid the mess that is intervening with any of this, just spawns revs. Which actually changes literally nothing about the situation - it simply means now the crew has a green light to kill. So security and command get murdered. What a happy ending, amirite?

Truth is, it's simply the reality of this game that people will mess with security and command for the sake of "dank meme XD". All access for everyone, lmao. Complain that all access is too easy to get by any random greyshirt and you'll be told it's intended conflict - which includes every round being makeshift rev and more obstructive than actual antags, apparently.

Even if they fail to get that, they still just use tools for the same purposes, they still just grab whoever security captures away and release them. Seeing security expected to act "proper" when dealing with people like that is honestly absurd.

[onleavedontatme]

What is wrong is the [...] "but he'll be back for revenge", "but his metafriends will bust him out anyway" mentality

Well, if you're currently already dealing with an overwhelming, all access tide, there's honestly nothing unreasonable about either of these.

I'm starting to think your idea of an unstoppable greytide is a single Assistant with a stunprod.

I found the secret behind the "grey tide" what they actually meant was antagonists

Seeing expect security expected to act "proper" when dealing with people like that is honestly absurd.

Still nobody in this thread asking for you to act proper when dealing with giant mobs like that, try again

[danno]

Want my idea

no

[Pascal125]

Kor, you're legitimately delusional if you don't believe that there's players out there who do nothing but grief and fuck with Security/Command other then "Antagonists".
The original poster is one.

That screenshot does nothing but show us how detached and unaware you are of the community/situation.
Yeah sure, optimism and ignorance is cute and all. But at this point it's a bit much and i don't even think anyone knows what you're trying to do other then gaslight people talking about legitimate issues in here.

[Nilons]

105 Connections in the past month, including any time you log on to admin or test something code related, what depth of information do you expect to have on what its like to play security in recent times.

Also, HoS, Warden, Det are respectively the least played jobs on the server, which gives an indication of how little detective needs to be used as a result of summary execution, and how much people don't want to play roles with responsibility as sec because of officers beating greyshirts to death when they deserve it

Other side of the coin, Assistants are by a fucking long shot the most deaths, what part of this is due to suicides is up in the air though.

Edit: Was just talking with kevinz in discord but hes a fucko so he wont post this here. He was talking about a player that finds him every round and antagonizes him until he kills him, round after round, and does nothing but antagonizes sec for a reaction. These players exist.

[onleavedontatme]

I never said those people dont exist. I just dont think they are so unmanageable and in such great numbers that security needs blanket IC and OOC immunity to pre-emptively dismember and gulag anyone who commits any crime.

I play security and admin regularly so I am not sure how I would be out of touch.

The only people doing misdirection in this thread are the security players screeching "SO YOU WANT ME TO TRY AND ARREST 10 PEOPLE TRYING TO KILL ME AT ONCE?" when for the last five pages people have made it very clear they are not talking about those situations

[Dax Dupont]

Other side of the coin, Assistants are by a fucking long shot the most deaths, what part of this is due to suicides is up in the air though.

Someone mentioned that ghost roles get counted as assistant to death stats

Edit: Was just talking with kevinz in discord but hes a fucko so he wont post this here. He was talking about a player that finds him every round and antagonizes him until he kills him, round after round, and does nothing but antagonizes sec for a reaction. These players exist.

Yeah, there's some people who just do this shit round after round. RR11 is a perfect example of this.

[PKPenguin321]

Can this thread be done? As far as I can tell we've derailed so far that there's no real policy being proposed or discussed, just "THE STATE OF THE GAME IS XYZ" "NO IT IS ZYX" "REEEEEEE"

[onleavedontatme]

Can this thread be done? As far as I can tell we've derailed so far that there's no real policy being proposed or discussed, just "THE STATE OF THE GAME IS XYZ" "NO IT IS ZYX" "REEEEEEE"

Can I post the logs of Pascal cutting a prisoners leg off for calling him shitcurity and then telling me "maybe he shouldnt have called me shitcurity" when I PMd him first?

I think its a great way to sum up what is wrong with the "any level of provocation deserves any level of retaliation" mindset

[PKPenguin321]

Can this thread be done? As far as I can tell we've derailed so far that there's no real policy being proposed or discussed, just "THE STATE OF THE GAME IS XYZ" "NO IT IS ZYX" "REEEEEEE"

Can I post the logs of Pascal cutting a prisoners leg off for calling him shitcurity and then telling me "maybe he shouldnt have called me shitcurity" when I PMd him first?

I think its a great way to sum up what is wrong with the "any level of provocation deserves any level of retaliation" mindset

No yeah that should be bannable, that's fucking stupid

Does that make the policy on this clearer

[Nilons]

PKP isnt your job to say "Here's the policy on the issues being discussed" because there's obviously confusion, instead of asking if the thread can be over when you're the one with the power to lock it.

[PKPenguin321]

PKP isnt your job to say "Here's the policy on the issues being discussed" because there's obviously confusion, instead of asking if the thread can be over when you're the one with the power to lock it.

What policy would you like explained?

There's no dead-on, super specific line that security crosses when they do shit like abusing prisoners, it's really contextual and absolutely a case by case thing. I suppose there might be confusion around what instances should be bannable and what should not be, but Kor at least seems to understand what should not be allowable, and if the admin team is clear on it that seems good for now. Players like Pascal in this instance are wrong, Kor would seem to be in the right.

TL;DR:

As a rule of thumb:
Don't overreact wildly by slicing the legs off of someone who called you shitcurity, permabrigging somebody for disarming you once while you're not even carrying anything, etc, or else admins should ban you.
Don't ban security for arresting a murderer who happens to be the captain (unless the murder was super justified or whatever).
Don't fuck with security for absolutely no reason or else admins should ban you.

[Pascal125]

Uhh.

I cut the leg off an Assistant with one attack using a spellblade you spawned in or a miner brought in, according to you on Discord. about a minute from shift end during gangmode while non-implanteds were pretty much KOS due to chucking grenades at and attacking security, including us having to kill some attacking us in the shuttle?

You forgetting the bribery stunt you pulled the same shift and how that led to Security/Civillian personnel being delimbed? A "90% Deflect chance" Adminweapon Vibroblade? Same shit, different pile. Why don't you give yourself a note if you want to prove a point. And make sure to properly add context to yours. I know you didn't in mine. "His prisoner called him shitcurity after he brought the prisoner an oxytank which hurt his feelings so he cut off his prisoners leg. A bit much.".

It was my understanding that Admins shouldn't punish players for doing what they would do. And Kor, based off personal experience. It's exactly what you would do, and did.

The extent of our PMing was you passive aggressively PMing me "Hey, mind not cutting peoples legs off for calling you shitcurity, that's a bit much." to which i replied. "Yeah, sure. Tell him not to be rude to people.". Nothing more, nothing less.
But hey. Thanks for showing how petty you are over the feedback about you accepting bribes, buddy. And how you'll happily misconstrue facts and lie just like Robustin to get your point across when people want the thread over with? Lol.

[Oldman Robustin]

Kor Pascal already agreed to eat a ban on Page 1 if you can get those logs. When I try to open logs from the forum link I get an error.

#306798 is his recollection of the event of the round Im talking about in the OP.

I'm willing to wager myself against you.
If they check and i'm lying. They can ban me.
If they check and you're lying, they ban you.
Sound fair?

You can easily prove he's lying with:

1) ">Get dragged to brig. >Escape." I wasn't in the brig until they tossed me in perma. I reported some assistant who tried to kill me out of nowhere and that was about the only thing that I did that round before the main incident.

2) "Scream about Harm despite not being harmed. Trying to get the crew/AI to do something." Easily proven wrong. Even the arresting officer in this thread admitted to harm batonning me multiple times. Feel free to just toss Pascal a ban on this part alone.

3) ">Get tossed in a cell. >Escape again." Another lie. The only incident I was concerned about was harmbatoning and perma'ing me because you guys kept wordlessly attacking me in maint without any reason or explanation. I ahelped solely about the perma incident and eventually someone helped me escape after they came to bust out their friend in another cell. After I escaped I was recaptured and executed without any further brigging and I never brought that up to admins or this thread because it was irrelevant.

4) "Get AI to bolt Security, citing harm. Despite never being harmed." More lies, he claims twice in the same post that I wasn't harmed despite eating a harmbaton on the whole trip back to the brig while in cuffs.


Or just post the logs you were talking about because Pascal because like I said the dudes a posterchild for "Shit we shouldn't be tolerating from security anymore".

[onleavedontatme]

The bribe wasnt even real it was a joke that the """"victim"""" didnt care about its time to let go

Even if it was it has absolutely nothing to do with you cutting off a guys leg in the shuttle brig for calling you a name. You werent in any duress or danger and you had several officers with you + the gangs were essentially wiped out + he was restrained.

No amount of deflection about ADMIN BRIBES or GANG MODE or ROUND WAS ALMOST OVER changes the basic facts that you think its okay to cripple people for talking back to you when you're security

[Pascal125]

Robustin back at it again with the ban request. Did anyone expect anything else from this tag-team duo?

I didn't.

The bribe wasnt even real it was a joke that the """"victim"""" didnt care about its time to let go

Even if it was it has absolutely nothing to do with you cutting off a guys leg in the shuttle brig for calling you a name. You werent in any duress or danger and you had several officers with you + the gangs were essentially wiped out + he was restrained.

No amount of deflection about ADMIN BRIBES or GANG MODE or ROUND WAS ALMOST OVER changes the basic facts that you think its okay to cripple people for talking back to you when you're security

Except i don't and you're blatantly lying about things to get a point across?
There were multiple Victims, and it inconvenienced Security during a gang shift while they were processing prisoners for implantation, while having rioters outside the brig. Even if you apparently "Fixed" it afterwards by healing them. Which, i didn't see. But i digress. Give yourself a note if you want to prove a point.

Joke or not, it's a concerning thing with you as you "Joke" about bribery too often. Everywhere. And we know you accepted one to un-ban ERP at some point.

He didn't have his leg cut off in the shuttle brig, and we were under attack in the shuttle. Did you even investigate. Kor? You're literally changing your story in this thread.

[imblyings]

we've had enough autism here

[onleavedontatme]

tag-team duo?

Robustin cant stand me at all lmao

Steelpoint is the fucking posterchild for security and he is not exactly a giant fan of me either.

CPTANT is another security main who loves them so much he tried to make laserguns do like 30 damage and set people on fire

I'm sure PKP has a somewhat diminished opinion of me after the gang debacle as well

This is not some big assistant metagang screaming to legalize greytide this is a bunch of security mains, several of whom do not get along, all agreeing that just putting on a red jumpsuit should not entitle you to completley ignore the rules

[imblyings]

dumb site admins clicking post right after I lock

[onleavedontatme]

Scared?

[imblyings]

dumb slime leaving trails everywhere

[Pascal125]

What's with the desire for a hasty lock?
Gonna call people shit and try to get it locked or steer the conversation elsewhere when you get called out for blatantly being full of shit?

Stop shitposting the thread, too. Why don't you?

[onleavedontatme]

What's with the desire for a hasty lock?
Gonna call people shit and try to get it locked when you get called out for blatantly being full of shit?

Stop shitposting the thread, too. Why don't you?

Are you suffering a stroke? I'm the one who unlocked it.

[Nilons]

Ill believe robustin lying but not Kor, you're fighting uphill if you think people are gonna take your word over his pascal, as they should because you seem like you're full of shit

[Pascal125]

And why do you think this Admin couldn't possibly lie? Pray tell?

It seems pretty apparent to me that they are petty over a feedback post and like to change their story to fit their arguments. Much like Robustin.

[imblyings]

>be comfy in bed
>make it less comfy by moving my arms outside blanket to check forums on laptop and it's cold
>see dumb thread and it's autism
>make it less comfy by reading autism as headcuck duties demand me to
>lock it because even pkp has had to grace the thread and autism still continues
>someone unlocks it

>someone thinks they can stop me shitposting

: - D

DDD

[imblyings]

i suffered for years as a player and they think they can take my right to shitpost from my cold not under blanket hands after i fought inch by inch to be allowed to shitpost?

[imblyings]

send those reports

guess who's gonna be at the door

[imblyings]

if pkp wasn't clear enough then perhaps another headmin can make this clearer

[imblyings]

oops im another headmin

[imblyings]

What policy would you like explained?

There's no dead-on, super specific line that security crosses when they do shit like abusing prisoners, it's really contextual and absolutely a case by case thing. I suppose there might be confusion around what instances should be bannable and what should not be, but Kor at least seems to understand what should not be allowable, and if the admin team is clear on it that seems good for now. Players like Pascal in this instance are wrong, Kor would seem to be in the right.

TL;DR:

As a rule of thumb:
Don't overreact wildly by slicing the legs off of someone who called you shitcurity, permabrigging somebody for disarming you once while you're not even carrying anything, etc, or else admins should ban you.
Don't ban security for arresting a murderer who happens to be the captain (unless the murder was super justified or whatever).
Don't fuck with security for absolutely no reason or else admins should ban you.

[imblyings]

gee its cold

[PKPenguin321]

Threads like this are the reason I need to enforce this https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=11057 better