Ban Appeal Weregild

[Nilons]

This policy thread is less based on rulings that need to be made and more based on process that should be taken

When a person makes an appeal, if it was wrongfully placed due to a lack of communication, admin negligence(unlikely but it does happen), or because of other extenuating circumstances where it should never be placed in the first place, I feel reparations should be made due to time lost. It should not be punished for whenever an admins ban is appealed however, as this would make admins more likely to just not ban people who break the rules. My suggestion on this matter is to make it up to the person who was wrongfully banned instead of punishing the person who wrongfully banned.

The nitty gritty of it is, I think when a ban is successfully appealed, the player appealing should be given something. My current idea is an antag token but this is only a suggestion and is completely subject to the ideas of anyone who would like to share. The prerequisites for getting an antag token or other reward for successfully appealing a ban would be as such:

1) The ban was not less than 24 Hours
2) The admin in question acknowledges that the ban being placed was a mistake
3) That one of the 3 headmins finds that both of first two conditions are met

Thoughts? Stupid? Shut up nilons?

[Wyzack]

This is a terrible idea and i feel stupider for having posted in this thread. you are not owed anything, it is a fucking game

[Nilons]

This is a terrible idea and i feel stupider for having posted in this thread. you are not owed anything, it is a fucking game

>Get banned because admin read a line wrong
>Appeal successfully 6 months later
>Tough shit guess you lost 6 months of play for nothing

Youll ban people for taking someone out of the end round for 20 seconds but someone being wrongfully banned is righted as soon as their unbanned? It's literally no lose, no one's being punished here

[cedarbridge]

This is a terrible idea and i feel stupider for having posted in this thread. you are not owed anything, it is a fucking game

>Get banned because admin read a line wrong
>Appeal successfully 6 months later
>Tough shit guess you lost 6 months of play for nothing

Youll ban people for taking someone out of the end round for 20 seconds but someone being wrongfully banned is righted as soon as their unbanned? It's literally no lose, no one's being punished here

>waiting 6 months to appeal something that you could have appealed at any time
lolno

[Pascal125]

Appealing Bans early/within 24 hours/before it expires tends to earn you the Ire of some admins.

If it truly was unwarranted, especially when the Admin seems unwilling to admit it. Then that's an issue.

[DrPillzRedux]

Despite what you may think, nilons, tgstation is not a right, therefor you don't deserve compensation.

It's a fucking video game get over it.

[Nilons]

I'm surprised admins feel this horribly about being able to make up for any mistakes they make in a way that has no losers tbh

[PKPenguin321]

An antag token can already be given out at admin discretion if they royally fuck up on accident ingame, so I'd imagine the same would apply out of game like this if the admin deems it necessary. We will not put a guaranteed antag token system in place like this, however.

[Pascal125]

Because, they're in a position of power online and some don't think they can be wrong or care about having a neutral outcome where both parties are happy and understand each-other.

Personally, if they'd just say sorry I'd be fine with it. Though. I don't see a need for much else. Even if they "Wasted" a players time.

[Nilons]

Despite what you may think, nilons, tgstation is not a right, therefor you don't deserve compensation.

It's a fucking video game get over it.

So if you got rule 0d you'd be perfectly fine with it an not appeal or complain? After all it's not a right so you have no right to complain. Why even have ban appeals if you're going into it with the attitude that admins don't need a reason to ban you because it's not a right

@pkp you'll notice I put that it's up to headmin discretion completely so it's not guaranteed, I may have made it unclear but my intention was that it would be 100% headmin decision in the end

[Wyzack]

Believe it or not we already have a reward system for successful ban appeals. In exchange you get unbanned and can play the game again. The entitlement here is fucking staggering

[J_Madison]

i lost four hours of sec gameplay i can never get back

what am i gonna demand atlanta plays sec for 4 hours and tries his hardest and if he doesnt he has to do it agian


like theres easier ways to settle the score

record yourself singing im a little teapot and ill forgive your sins.

[Pascal125]

What's wrong with Apolagizing for christ's sake. That's all people are asking for, here. There is no "Entitlement".

What. Are you telling me that if you banned a dude, six months went by, and the ban was appealed and found to be wrongfully placed.
You'd just say "Whatever"?

How would you feel in that situation?

Remember my Rule 0 Permaban? Nothing really came out of it even when it was found to be out of line and out of nowhere. It still lasted two or three days. I had to personally reach out to the admin for them to even bother apolagizing to me or explain it.
You think that doesn't have an effect or look strange to people? Permabanned out of basically nowhere? Sure, it's an extreme case. But it happened, so it's plausible. That maybe Admins can be wrong. And maybe they should at-least have the common courtesy to apologize when such happens. Not remain stubborn or refuse because of some sense of "Entitlement" from the appealing player. Here's the kicker. That stuff was taken into account in my future ban appeals. Even one that was related to someone ban-baiting me as evidence as of why the reasoning should stick. With virtually no admins stepping in to tell him it's just stupid to take into account an appealed Rule 0 Ban which came out of the blue, as if it meant anything.

I don't even play Antag. So this "Apolagy Token" wouldn't even apply to me. But. Boo fucking hoo, the mere concept of having to give a single Antag token to a guy you wronged. One antag shift, as an apolagy. If not just a simple "Sorry about that. My bad." Wow.

It's literally the least they can do. And it won't kill them, either. Least. I'd hope not.

[Wyzack]

What? What the actual shit? I never said anything about apologizing. Of course the admin should apologize if they made a mistake. That doesnt mean the player needs a prize to mend his bruised feelings.

[Cobby]

Shut up nilonsOstrava of Nanotrasen

[danno]

fuck outta here

[oranges]

Since I help pay for the server can i get double the antag tokens that normal unbans get?

[Nilons]

What? What the actual shit? I never said anything about apologizing. Of course the admin should apologize if they made a mistake. That doesnt mean the player needs a prize to mend his bruised feelings.

I'm a little disappointed wyzack, we're not entitled you're right, now if you can stop aggressively explaining things a fucking 3 year old knows like no one is literally being forced to let us play here we can move on with the discussion. We're not entitled to play, we're not entitled to appeal, we're not entitled to antag positions, we're not entitled to anything at all, but that is not a reason to actively discourage making the server better for players. You're essentially saying fuck the players we don't owe them anything why should we ever try to make the server a place that's more fun for PLAYERS. What is the difference between an apology and antag token in this situation? They're both a form of reparation, they're both free to give, one of them means more to a player than the other. Why are you so forcefully against people being given something nice when they're treated badly? Why does it pain you so fucking much that someone maybe should be rewarded if they calmly explained why they should be unbanned or why it is unjust that they were banned? You keep talking about the fact that we're not OWED to play and its blatantly obvious to everyone with a brain already and a copout excuse in the present context. We're not owed to play on the server so only donors should get antag right? We're not owed to play on the server so we should pay 5$ to be able to do anything but observe right? Is that the type of thing you think is okay or envision for the future of the server just because we're not owed being able to play?

You came in here aggro as fuck about something that literally has no negatives to you or any admin for that matter, and only serves to make players less likely to hold grudges against admins who wrongfully ban them. This would very likely lower the amount of admin complaints made simply because players are more likely to forgive and forget if its acknowledged they were wrong and they're given something in return for their troubles. I'm actively trying to make people less pissy at YOU when you fuck up.

>waiting 6 months to appeal something that you could have appealed at any time
lolno

I've seen multiple bans where IN THE BAN REASON it said something to the effect of "appeal in 6 months or so". Im impressed you haven't seen these being an admin and all.

[bandit]

>reparations

it's a period of time in which you cannot partake of one of the dozens of servers to play spessmen, it isn't fucking slavery

[Shadowlight213]

Nilons told me weigh in on this for some reason. Im tired, so I might ramble or repeat something.

If an admin messed up, and you don't appeal for 6 months, thats your fault for not taking initiative at all.
Ban appeals are to appeal bans. If you think the ban was wrongly placed, show that it was wrong and if the admin refuses, bring it up to the headmins.

Admins can be under a lot of stress. Ive personally once had to juggle 3 different ahelp conversations, resulting in 2 seperate bans. This was before tickets, mind you. Ive seen appeals where an admin accidentally clicked the wrong name and banned the victim. Said victim immediately appealed, and within the hour, they were unbanned. Them not appealing for 6 months just because the ban said that, would be stupid.
Admins can, and will sometimes fuck up. Tokens have always been at their discretion. For bad bans, players should actually point shit out.

Also, having to compensate for a bad ban, is just going to make admins less likely to admit their ban was wrong.
If you really have to have something, maybe mso can make a purple heart forum badge for those people.

[Karp]

hi

bans are like bandages

rip them off fast when the wound has healed or if there is no wound, such as a blatantly wrong ban. Dont complain when you leave the bandage on when you know youre fine and it hurts when you peel it.

Slowly peeling the bandage with useless procedure like tokens leaves bad blood amongst everyone anyways as it becomes a more lasting thing than an unban and have fun

Every other person who has said no in this thread also has stated that yes there is a lot of distraction/stress/confusion that could happen especially due to interface issues or other issues

if something is so bad that that needs to happen then it should be a rare circumstance seen as a gift rather than procedure or other severe issues existing

[Nilons]

To continue that analogy, ripping a bandage off and finding there was never a wound in the first place, having wasted a bandage, time spent with it on being there, and the ouch of ripping it off is what im talking about. If a doctor puts a cast on a bone that isn't broken it's not just sorry, and while that's not nearly equivalent in terms of scale the point stands

[Karp]

there has never been an unintentional ban that i can think of where either party was severely upset after being banned and an apology was given out, except for some minor initial upset

unless the person is an insatiable baby, but then nothing would satisfy them

another issue with it is that people will feel entitled to antag tokens on a lot of unbans giving headmins more pointless work over something that inconvenienced both parties for at most 30 minutes if a blatantly wrong ban was appealed immediately, and even then most people get unbanned when admins realize they banned the wrong person and the appeal tends to consist of "Oh yeah i immediately unbanned you you were the wrong person sorry" or "Whoops I'll unban you now"

no reason to add anything extra to it

You've been inconvenienced for 30 minutes or an hour
boo


also, no reason to make a mountain out of a molehill

[NikNakFlak]

Remember my Rule 0 Permaban? Nothing really came out of it even when it was found to be out of line and out of nowhere. It still lasted two or three days. I had to personally reach out to the admin for them to even bother apolagizing to me or explain it.

[danno]

^ lol'd

[Grazyn]

Guaranteed antag tokens are a bad idea because it would create a new meta where players bait admins into banning them for minor stuff so that they can successfully appeal the ban for the token. I don't think you realize how coveted antag tokens are.

[onleavedontatme]

I think there should be some kind of note given to the admin or antag token given to the player because there is basically no way at all to track if an admin consistently gives out bad bans. Also kind of silly to see the same admins who delay the round for 10 minutes and hold up 90 players so they can figure out why someone died 2 minutes before round end shrugging their shoulders and saying being ejected for 1440 minutes doesn't matter.

Also, having to compensate for a bad ban, is just going to make admins less likely to admit their ban was wrong.

This is true though so such a system might not work. But I gave out antag tokens when I was headmin when overturning bans though and the servers didn't seem to collapse.

I realize I'm in the minority here though so this post is silly

[onleavedontatme]

I don't think its really entitlement to want it to work differently than that people just inherently desire things to be fair, and it sucks when unfair things happen and its dismissed with a shrug and the unfair thing then happens again. Obviously this isn't life or death serious, but the thing they were banned for in the first place likely wasn't either so it's gonna feel double unfair that not only did they not deserve the ban, but that they were chastised for not taking the rules seriously before being mocked again when they complain someone else didn't follow them.

[Grazyn]

admins who delay the round for 10 minutes and hold up 90 players so they can figure out why someone died 2 minutes

OT but that's why ahelp verb should be disabled 5 minutes before round end or return an automatic IC flag

[bandit]

OT but that's why ahelp verb should be disabled 5 minutes before round end or return an automatic IC flag

This is a terrible idea.

[Nilons]

OT but that's why ahelp verb should be disabled 5 minutes before round end or return an automatic IC flag

This is a terrible idea.

This is something we can all agree on

[Wyzack]

Okay think of it like this

There are a few types of bans that get successful appeals on /tg/

Mild shittery bans. Player did something sorta griffy or bad, got a day or a few days ban for it, but in appeal seemed genuinely sincere about understanding why x was bad and promises not to do it again, admin takes pity or whatever, ban lifted.

Terrible misinformation/error bans. Admin is in the wrong entirely, read a name incorrectly, accidentally banned the victim, stuff like that. Obviously ban should not stand. These are almost always appealed and lifted right away. I am not saying it has never happened but I can not think of a single time a ban like this caused a player to remain banned for an extended period of time

Slight misinformation bans. These are the cases where a good deal of grey area is involved, and a player who was involved in some level of shittery or grey area IC conflict that would not usually be bannable, but due to misinformation or error on the banning admin's part they believed the player had done something they had not. These ones are the kind that lead to long winded FNR dramaposting and other such shit, but many times the player will get unbanned because new information has come to light. In many of these cases the banned player was acting like a bit of a shit but just not to a banworthy degree.

Admin disagreement bans. Times where an admin staunchly believes something was bannable, but either pressure from other admins or direct headmin intervention has caused them to repeal it.

Time out bans/perma bans. These are the bans where the player was clearly in the wrong and has been banned for some time. They appeal, get a reference from another server or merely say they knew their behavior was shit and the ban gets lifted.

Now obviously this is not comprehensive and im sure people will point out a billion and one edge cases.

Lifted bans of the mild shittery and slight misinformation type should not receive antag tokens because many times we want specifically to discourage shitty playstyles that are unfun for everyone. Time out bans should obviously not be rewarded for the same reason.

Bans where the admin has made a terrible mistake and outright fucked up terribly are almost always appealed and lifted immediately with an apology. This results to very little lost in the way of gameplay time, but the banning admin has always been at liberty to give an antag token or whatever to the poor banned player if it seems appropriate.
Finally in the admin disagreement bans is probably the worst grey area. I would say these bans should probably not be given a token of any kind in most cases, simply because the banned player most often displays some form of shittery or another and the main point of contention is whether or not it is actually banworthy. This is obviously not true in the case of unfounded grudgebans which are blissfully few and far between. In fact this type of ban happens pretty infrequently as is, and I see no reason to put a guaranteed antag token system in for such an edge case where it is already at admin discretion to give a player something if they feel the player has been terribly wronged.

Now the reason i wrote this Robustin-esque wall of text was to illustrate my point. Maybe classifying types of bans into catagories is dumb and autistic, but it is a simple fact that many (probably even most) lifted bans are of the "dont do it again/be better" variety and should not be rewarded. A system like the one Nilons proposes will almost certainly cause FNR arguments to get worse when players disagree about what category their ban was in and why they didn't get an antag token when they really deserve one shitty admin fuck myself. The actual cases where a player has been entirely unjustly banned and lost a great deal of gameplay time as a result is uncommon enough that I see no reason to put any sort of system in place when admin discretion has already served the same purpose for ever now.

TL:DR i gave an actual serious answer inb4 tricked by the ruseman

[bandit]

Okay think of it like this

There are a few types of bans that get successful appeals on /tg/

Mild shittery bans. Player did something sorta griffy or bad, got a day or a few days ban for it, but in appeal seemed genuinely sincere about understanding why x was bad and promises not to do it again, admin takes pity or whatever, ban lifted.

Terrible misinformation/error bans. Admin is in the wrong entirely, read a name incorrectly, accidentally banned the victim, stuff like that. Obviously ban should not stand. These are almost always appealed and lifted right away. I am not saying it has never happened but I can not think of a single time a ban like this caused a player to remain banned for an extended period of time

Slight misinformation bans. These are the cases where a good deal of grey area is involved, and a player who was involved in some level of shittery or grey area IC conflict that would not usually be bannable, but due to misinformation or error on the banning admin's part they believed the player had done something they had not. These ones are the kind that lead to long winded FNR dramaposting and other such shit, but many times the player will get unbanned because new information has come to light. In many of these cases the banned player was acting like a bit of a shit but just not to a banworthy degree.

Admin disagreement bans. Times where an admin staunchly believes something was bannable, but either pressure from other admins or direct headmin intervention has caused them to repeal it.

Time out bans/perma bans. These are the bans where the player was clearly in the wrong and has been banned for some time. They appeal, get a reference from another server or merely say they knew their behavior was shit and the ban gets lifted.

Now obviously this is not comprehensive and im sure people will point out a billion and one edge cases.

Lifted bans of the mild shittery and slight misinformation type should not receive antag tokens because many times we want specifically to discourage shitty playstyles that are unfun for everyone. Time out bans should obviously not be rewarded for the same reason.

Bans where the admin has made a terrible mistake and outright fucked up terribly are almost always appealed and lifted immediately with an apology. This results to very little lost in the way of gameplay time, but the banning admin has always been at liberty to give an antag token or whatever to the poor banned player if it seems appropriate.
Finally in the admin disagreement bans is probably the worst grey area. I would say these bans should probably not be given a token of any kind in most cases, simply because the banned player most often displays some form of shittery or another and the main point of contention is whether or not it is actually banworthy. This is obviously not true in the case of unfounded grudgebans which are blissfully few and far between. In fact this type of ban happens pretty infrequently as is, and I see no reason to put a guaranteed antag token system in for such an edge case where it is already at admin discretion to give a player something if they feel the player has been terribly wronged.

Now the reason i wrote this Robustin-esque wall of text was to illustrate my point. Maybe classifying types of bans into catagories is dumb and autistic, but it is a simple fact that many (probably even most) lifted bans are of the "dont do it again/be better" variety and should not be rewarded. A system like the one Nilons proposes will almost certainly cause FNR arguments to get worse when players disagree about what category their ban was in and why they didn't get an antag token when they really deserve one shitty admin fuck myself. The actual cases where a player has been entirely unjustly banned and lost a great deal of gameplay time as a result is uncommon enough that I see no reason to put any sort of system in place when admin discretion has already served the same purpose for ever now.

TL:DR i gave an actual serious answer inb4 tricked by the ruseman

There's one other major category, permabans that get applied because the person logged off before they could be questioned. I've seen these not go appealed for literal years, mostly because the player doesn't know they get appealed. That's why we usually use the message system for stuff like suiciding as head of staff, or when it's more serious than that (unexplained killings, etc) I at least try to be incredibly specific in directing the player to the forums and outright saying they should probably post to explain themselves.

[Wyzack]

Yeah those too. I though we were going to move away from them but it seems they still happen a lot. Sort of the same boat where they often involve shitter behavior that warrants an explanation, but again the few cases where a player is truly wronged can just be handled like it always has

[Nilons]

I appreciate you posting seriously instead of just saying "lol stupid idea fuck off I'm dumber for even being involved" you outline a very good set of criteria and I'm not asking for a guaranteed system here. I just want the precedent to be set that headmins can award tokens for people who are banned wrongfully, see jmads latest appeal, if that's already a precedent I want to call it to light and encourage its use more. I'm not suggesting players be entitled to antag because they're banned. I'm suggesting players specifically wronged are eligible for a token to compensate.

[Shadowlight213]

Revenge of Shadowlight's rambling.

I just want the precedent to be set that headmins can award tokens for people who are banned wrongfully.

Ok, here's the part that you seem to be giving everyone mixed signals on, and don't seem to get.
Antag tokens aren't really something that there's a set "give for this/ dont for that" system for. It's all up to admin discretion. There isn't even any actual requirement to honor them. An admin, can just say no if they feel redeeming it wouldn't be a good idea in the round, or add restrictions. We've been more stingy on them recently, because I've heard admins used to give them out for stuff like "Good roleplay", "being robust as antag (Not joking here.)", etc.. The restriction is more of an admin mindset as a result of that. I think we used to give them out for server crashes, but stopped around the time of the cleanbot bug causing crashes daily.
Main thing that prevents that now, is other admins telling you off, and headmin decisions/opinions. If a headmin wants to give one, there's nothing stopping them.

Antag tokens are not, and afaik have never been a formal thing. There's no point to argue a policy around them.

[IrishWristWatch0]

This is without a doubt the stupidest fucking thing I have ever seen.

[Nilons]

This is without a doubt the stupidest fucking thing I have ever seen.

Surprised you've gone your whole life without looking in a mirror lad

[Jacough]

What. Are you telling me that if you banned a dude, six months went by, and the ban was appealed and found to be wrongfully placed.

If it was a wrongfully placed ban they'd had to be retarded to wait six months to appeal it.

[NikNakFlak]

This is without a doubt the stupidest fucking thing I have ever seen.

Surprised you've gone your whole life without looking in a mirror lad

You obviously don't know Irishwristwatch if you think that's a good comeback

[Steelpoint]

Admins already can further compensate players at their own discretion if they think its either necessary or at least worth while.

I don't see a reason to codify a compensation system for wrongfully banned players.

[Nilons]

This is without a doubt the stupidest fucking thing I have ever seen.

Surprised you've gone your whole life without looking in a mirror lad

You obviously don't know Irishwristwatch if you think that's a good comeback

Only children, autistic people, and fedoras outwardly talk about comebacks instead of just talking about the subject matter

[IrishWristWatch0]

This is without a doubt the stupidest fucking thing I have ever seen.

Surprised you've gone your whole life without looking in a mirror lad

You obviously don't know Irishwristwatch if you think that's a good comeback

Only children, autistic people, and fedoras outwardly talk about comebacks instead of just talking about the subject matter

More of a debian man myself

[ThanatosRa]

The reserves beckon.