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Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:28 am
by oranges
Please bring it back, it was a healthy necessity for the community to function, even if the admins ignored it.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:46 am
by Dr_bee
I actually agree with oranges. Despite the salt it may generate it does provide a public record of people's complaints at least.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:49 am
by Armhulen
I want it but the people who have to do shit with it don't

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:54 am
by oranges
penguin once campaigned on a promise of bringing it back

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:13 am
by bman
that was before round IDs were a thing

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:15 am
by bandit
Armhulen wrote:I want it but the people who have to do shit with it don't


This, basically.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:06 am
by imblyings
It wasn't ignored but it involved players with biases being asked to recall specific details (a fallible process) and hold onto grudges days even weeks old. It required admins to mentally construct what happened from two opposing views and logs that don't provide context, using their own subjective knowledge to piece what reliable information there was together.

It is doable and i understand atleast one mindset behind wanting ban requests. But the intention behind the ticket system was also in part to provide admins who were willing, a way to answer ''missed ahelps''. There was and is no motivation to answer ahelps that are over a hour old. Extrapolate that to a delay of 48hrs usually and stretched across a week.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:32 am
by Grazyn
oranges wrote:penguin once campaigned on a promise of bringing it back

"Once", he's the current headmin and this was one of his major promises.

But I think we have already established that headmins (especially player headmins) are a joke

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:39 am
by CPTANT
imblyings wrote:It wasn't ignored but it involved players with biases being asked to recall specific details (a fallible process) and hold onto grudges days even weeks old. It required admins to mentally construct what happened from two opposing views and logs that don't provide context, using their own subjective knowledge to piece what reliable information there was together.

It is doable and i understand atleast one mindset behind wanting ban requests. But the intention behind the ticket system was also in part to provide admins who were willing, a way to answer ''missed ahelps''. There was and is no motivation to answer ahelps that are over a hour old. Extrapolate that to a delay of 48hrs usually and stretched across a week.


Even 30 minute old ahelps are already a pain actually.

example time of how a 30 minute old ahelp goes:

-what happened with the HoS
-he got killed killed by revs and because of my laws I killed the rev that hurt him
- no before that
- I denied him upload access because he is not the captain or RD
- he says you bolted him in with a hullbreach
- I did?

Ok The HoS forced his way into the upload by shooting a rev into crit and saying he would execute him, I let him in. I turn on turrets to prevent him from shooting the guy, he gets out threatens to execute him on the spot if the turrets get back on. Borg comes in to check wtf is going on, in the meantime somewhere else on the station revs are killing the HoP, the door opened by the borg lets a rev sneak in before I can olt it again. The rev welderbombs the upload. The HoS is hurt and shoots the fuck out of everyone. The borg is flailing around. I get new laws. The borg fixes the breach the front door gets unbolted the HoS leaves.

-after ten more minutes ahelp ends: Ok pay more attention in the future.

OR THAT HAPPENED IN SOME OTHER ORDER. Did I even bolt that door or was it the borg? Was the HoS even near the bolted door? When were my laws changed druing this event? When was I looking at the HoP getting lynched instead of looking at the upload.

How the f am I supposed to remember the details and order of things from a situation like that 30 minutes after it happens.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:05 pm
by Nilons
If you ahelp after a round it very very rarely gets dealt with in my experiences, even with a round number

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:00 pm
by Qbopper
Nilons wrote:If you ahelp after a round it very very rarely gets dealt with in my experiences, even with a round number


this is why I say

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ahelp during the round the incident happened, and if you don't, scroll up and take fucking pictures of logs with shareX or something

it's extremely difficult to figure out things in previous rounds (easily) unless they're the most blatant and simple issues

it's not ideal and I'm not trying to defend it but if you realistically want your ahelp to be resolved you need to do it during the round or to take down relevant information

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:13 pm
by Aloraydrel
Why not just IRC a headmin of the issue instead of making a public thread of a complaint?

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:21 pm
by D&B
Ban Requests 2.0: Ban requests with a twist. No more requesting to ban people that you don't like. It will exclusively handle cases where ahelps were handled improperly or missed entirely. If you didn't ahelp it at the time in-game, your ban request will be deleted.
I like this because we sort of do this already with supportbus and stuff and it would alleviate the issue you'll sometimes read about in the "tears of regret" thread where they ahelp and are met with silence.



But I mean, at least now we have shooties and sprays!

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:21 pm
by Nilons
Why don't admins sign up for it, if someone wants to make a ban request have admins who want to deal with them either out of altruism or because they like doing it have a title attached, then you PM them the format, that will stop drama festering with public shamings and if there aren't enough admins to handle it tough titties its the same as it is now.

The fact that if you can get to the reboot without being bwoinked your basically in the clear is a little fucking silly

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:25 pm
by PKPenguin321
oranges wrote:penguin once campaigned on a promise of bringing it back

Other two headmins voted against it and it lost, a compromise was in the works but it kind of died

I've handled maybe around 10 ban requests via forum PMs/IRC though

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:02 am
by bandit
If we make people posting ban requests provide the round ID then I would be fine to log dive for ban requests

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:38 am
by Armhulen
bandit wrote:If we make people posting ban requests provide the round ID then I would be fine to log dive for ban requests

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:49 pm
by Atlanta-Ned
That reminds me I need to merge attack logs with game logs so you can see both at once.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:13 pm
by Lazengann
If you bring it back I volunteer to be in charge of it
I live for the salt

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:32 pm
by leibniz
First you'd need to find like 5+ admins who say "Yes, I want to dedicate hours of my free time to "he said/she said"".

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:43 pm
by onleavedontatme
Real life governments recognize that even with real life crimes and real life victims there is value in moving on after a time (statute of limitations). In a pretend government with pretend crimes and pretend victims in a pretend world that resets every 30 minutes, the statute of limitations for such "crimes" should be proportionately short (within the next round). It's a silly burden not only on our admins but on our players to have to worry about their actions in a round for days or weeks after it ended.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:44 pm
by Lazengann
Aloraydrel wrote:Why not just IRC a headmin of the issue instead of making a public thread of a complaint?

The headmins don't tell you if it's resolved or what action was taken

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:47 pm
by onleavedontatme
Lazengann wrote:
Aloraydrel wrote:Why not just IRC a headmin of the issue instead of making a public thread of a complaint?

The headmins don't tell you if it's resolved or what action was taken


That sounds like a way easier tweak to make (and maybe a public ban log) than restarting the public ban request circus.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:16 pm
by Atlanta-Ned
Atlanta-Ned wrote:That reminds me I need to merge attack logs with game logs so you can see both at once.


aaaand done https://atlantaned.space/newSS13tools/r ... reset=true

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:21 pm
by Nilons
If we can access logs from neds site why has geist been making biweekly whining threads about logs

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:26 pm
by Atlanta-Ned
Nilons wrote:If we can access logs from neds sight why has geist been making biweekly whining threads about logs


Public logs have only been back for a week or so. Work is being done on an easier log interface for admins.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:38 pm
by FantasticFwoosh
Admin coverage is still so thin that outside of there & then coverage, nobody can actually catch shitters who commit the same historical crime.

Say if george melons griefs the station with a repetitive destructive behaviour for three rounds but the admin is only on the round in the middle, the words that they punish repetitive behaviour does not mean anything because admin communication must be so poor that they don't collate information about repeated behaviours between themselves. Most adminwork i've seen and partaken in has been totally reactionary responses to 1 round.

How are you meant to realistically investigate metacommunication if you reassure the player, then log off/go afk and be able to pursue in the subsequent rounds? With ban requests we can just deal with this ourselves now, and have the public logs to back it up.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:17 pm
by danno
you are delusional if you think ban requests is a good idea

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:20 pm
by Lazengann
It sure is fun though

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:24 pm
by Nilons
danno wrote:you are delusional if you think ban requests is a good idea


good argument and reasoning as for why i agree with the third and second points you made but think the first is lacking citations

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:19 pm
by PKPenguin321
Kor wrote:Real life governments recognize that even with real life crimes and real life victims there is value in moving on after a time (statute of limitations). In a pretend government with pretend crimes and pretend victims in a pretend world that resets every 30 minutes, the statute of limitations for such "crimes" should be proportionately short (within the next round). It's a silly burden not only on our admins but on our players to have to worry about their actions in a round for days or weeks after it ended.

While this is true, there are cases of just straight up grief that happen when no admins are online that absolutely shouldn't go unnoticed. Had to handle a thing over PMs the other day where a botanist randomly injected people (including sec officers) with bottles of mutagen, then stole their stuff, for absolutely no reason.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:35 pm
by Nilons
Kor wrote:Real life governments recognize that even with real life crimes and real life victims there is value in moving on after a time (statute of limitations). In a pretend government with pretend crimes and pretend victims in a pretend world that resets every 30 minutes, the statute of limitations for such "crimes" should be proportionately short (within the next round). It's a silly burden not only on our admins but on our players to have to worry about their actions in a round for days or weeks after it ended.


There is no statute of limitations on first degree in the US as well as most countries having either no statute of limitations on anything or reserving it for extremely minor crimes (Canada). So if you think that's an accurate parallel then killing someone without escalation should always be punishable.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:38 pm
by PKPenguin321
Maybe ban requests but only for absolutely open and shut cases of "Yes this was just straight up grief" would be nice, this is already basically what PMing a headmin accomplishes but more intuitive

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:00 pm
by Nilons
I stand by it should be private between an admin and player, or admins and player. Making it a public shitfest/I also dislike this guy fuck him is cancerous

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:26 pm
by CPTANT
Actually I always found reading all the salt extremely enjoyable.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:27 pm
by onleavedontatme
CPTANT wrote:Actually I always found reading all the salt extremely enjoyable.


That is what we have policy discussion for

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:28 pm
by Lazengann
Me too
Release the peanuts

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:36 pm
by Armhulen
Kor wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Actually I always found reading all the salt extremely enjoyable.


That is what we have policy discussion for

it's just not the same

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:09 pm
by Nilons
Im a major fan of salt but while it is fucking delicious and plentiful in ban requests it morphs it into something it shouldnt be

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:11 pm
by danno
making admins deal with petty retards for your own amusement is not reasoning that is going to convince any sane person to bring back that stupid shit

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:27 am
by Lazengann
Put me in coach

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:16 am
by TheWulfe
People don’t AHelp during the rounds because they legitimately believe someone may be an antagonist, because only a brazen douchebag would do their actions as a nonantag. And you don't wanna be a 'that guy' and pester an admin going 'Valid?' on every little death/attack/stuncuff. Round end and cue, "Wait, he seriously wasn't an antagonist?" and now it's extremely hard to resolve because if you AHelp here you delay playing for the serverbase.

And sometimes an incident needs better explaining than some 3-4 line back and forth between an admin who has no context and probably wants it nipped in the bud to go back to whatever they're actually doing because spessmen don't stare at a station for an hour and actually do stuff out of the game. You need to dig your own logs and there's probably well needed context that's better explained when you don't have the pressure of a BWOINK conversation.

They also serve as precedent or serve as good basis for follow up into policy discussion. The forum not only acted as a curb against bad behavior, but as a learning ground for players for what is acceptable, or how situations could have resolved themselves better.

And if you want a meme reason, it added some popcorn value entertainment.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:23 am
by bandit
TheWulfe wrote:People don’t AHelp during the rounds because they legitimately believe someone may be an antagonist, because only a brazen douchebag would do their actions as a nonantag. And you don't wanna be a 'that guy' and pester an admin going 'Valid?' on every little death/attack/stuncuff. Round end and cue, "Wait, he seriously wasn't an antagonist?" and now it's extremely hard to resolve because if you AHelp here you delay playing for the serverbase.


admin here, I am 100000000000000 times more annoyed when someone waits to adminhelp someone than if someone asks "X just killed me, is that valid?"

like how many times do multiple admins have to say this for it to sink in

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:33 am
by Qbopper
bandit wrote:
TheWulfe wrote:People don’t AHelp during the rounds because they legitimately believe someone may be an antagonist, because only a brazen douchebag would do their actions as a nonantag. And you don't wanna be a 'that guy' and pester an admin going 'Valid?' on every little death/attack/stuncuff. Round end and cue, "Wait, he seriously wasn't an antagonist?" and now it's extremely hard to resolve because if you AHelp here you delay playing for the serverbase.


admin here, I am 100000000000000 times more annoyed when someone waits to adminhelp someone than if someone asks "X just killed me, is that valid?"

like how many times do multiple admins have to say this for it to sink in


^

it's so much more annoying to have to check afterwards to see what happened than to get "i ded wtf", check antags, and then be done with it

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:39 am
by Shaps-cloud
People who actually enjoy watching people they don't know argue about whether someone should be banned and expect to be catered to are probably the dumbest people in the community

Feeding off internet drama for entertainment is somewhere between watching twitch streams all day for surrogate friendship and being glued to TMZ to stalk your favorite celebs

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:47 am
by captain sawrge
Shaps-cloud wrote:Feeding off internet drama for entertainment is somewhere between watching twitch streams all day for surrogate friendship

*sweating audibly*

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:24 am
by danno
what the fuck is your problem, shaps?

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:28 am
by bman
ban requests are redundant if you just get the round id, punch in some details into a message and pm headmins

just do that if you have high salt retention

danno wrote:what the fuck is your problem, shaps?


the cloud is toxic today

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:53 am
by Screemonster
I remember skimming through the ban appeals/requests forums here way back when I made admin elsewhere, just 'cause I figured it'd be the best place to look for "what if x happens, I bet these guys have dealt with something similar before"

Appeals are handy at times but knowing when (and how) to tell a complainer to suck it up helps too.

Re: Ban requests

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:19 am
by FantasticFwoosh
I mean, the ban requests demographic is targeted at people *no offence* too dumb, naive or unsure to even start pulling out logs for fear of being wrong, screemonster is correct that if you can just show a working example from a closed or resolved issue of ban requests, people will tolerate it less and hopefully the least admin populated parts of the day will de-toxify.