But what if he escalates?

[J_Madison]

I'm not afraid of escalation, I'll escalate you into infinity, I'll escalate you, innocent bystanders, captain, hop, whatever I'll even escalate my own security officers if I have to.

But when can we be assured that we don't be escalated valid IC issue over our actions as sec?

I think if we can work out a framework and standard for when escalation cannot occur, we could prevent people from being removed from the round because nobody wants to deal with escalation and be killed under IC Issue.

[BeeSting12]

I don't get what you're saying here, can you explain it a bit better? I feel like you might be asking a valid question, just that I can't figure out what it is.

[Lazengann]

He's saying he thinks security has to remove too many people because people are allowed to escalate conflicts against them until it's lethal

[imblyings]

I had to call upon a linguist to help me understand that post.

If you meant- can we stop players from killing security for doing their job, that already is the case. What prevents me or any other admin from making a more specific statement is the unique nature of each conflict that happens, limited/biased info available to involved parties, and how both players can be in the right at the same time despite being opposed.

[J_Madison]

I'm talking about sec removing too many people from the round and employing really hard handed tactics to prevent any possibility of "IC escalation".

[imblyings]

If you mean repukan he was in the wrong

I cant infer any other situations or hypotheticals if you are referencing one

[kevinz000]

bullshit coming from me but maybe security needs to act like security officers trying to keep the peace and not trigger happy monkies with guns , and also, consider that behind every in game character is a human player like you. Some greyshits truely deserve the Gestapo but most of the time there's no reason to be as harsh and lethal as you possibly can be outside of shit like conversion antags and massive highpop riots.

[Nilons]

bullshit coming from me but maybe security needs to act like security officers trying to keep the peace and not trigger happy monkies with guns , and also, consider that behind every in game character is a human player like you. Some greyshits truely deserve the Gestapo but most of the time there's no reason to be as harsh and lethal as you possibly can be outside of shit like conversion antags and massive highpop riots.

security can start acting like human beings when anyone else on the station starts acting like human beings which is never

[Pascal125]

You're honestly gonna have to start by fixing the "Greytide Mentality" and "Culture" before you're gonna start seeing improvements like that. Kevinz.
While i agree that people should take into account that behind every character is a human player who just wants to enjoy the game in their own way. Their way can conflict with everyone elses, in a way that does not consider this, itself.
If you guys were stricter on the "Greyshits who actually deserve the Gestapo" i think it would be a better situation. But as it stands that kind of playstyle can get you killed/robbed and ruled an IC issue. Which basically means you threw away a shift just to let some asshole keep on trucking and being a dick to everyone else.

One thing some people seem to fail to acknowledge, is that Security is more of a middleman. Much like an AI. They have access to knowledge others do not, and they often act on the behalf of others complaining or reporting crime. Sometimes, it's not that they're out to get you. It's that someone asked them to do something.

People need to stop making assumptions like, just because they do not know why they are being arrested or why people are being arrested. That they need to intervene and potentially attack or steal from the officer as though he's an antagonist with a badge trying to whisk their buddy away and beat them. Half the time they could've just settled it amicably and it would've been a quick process had they not. If they insist on making it into a fight because they don't want to talk and or potentially serve a mediocre brig time. it's a fight. And they deserve whatevers coming to them. Because honestly punishments in the brig for almost every crime is a joke. One that gets even more lessened through cooperation.

Much like Admins likely feel that they're dealing with Manchildren.
Security likely feels the same ICly, half the time.

[kevinz000]

nilons and pascal: treat the shitty players like shit, treat the not-garbage players as human beings, ez.

[J_Madison]

If you mean repukan he was in the wrong

I cant infer any other situations or hypotheticals if you are referencing one

I can't comment on what repukan did because I've admittedly seen this and worse, and have done it a few times albeit I don't have enough notes for a thesis and special circumcisions changed the outcome of my bwoink.

It's been increasingly common among security and captains just to kill the guy and remove from round which is what I'm trying to address.

Usually these players don't want to address the fact that by their accountability to things could cause IC escalation and it's been proven time and true that punishment has resulted in retaliation and being written off as "IC issue" yet in the previous sec thread we had pages long discussion about how admins would intervene against escalation.

nilons and pascal: treat the shitty players like shit, treat the not-garbage players as human beings, ez.

But das meragurdging :''''(((((((((((((

On a more serious note, this and a whole lot more of this. Mention it in your ban appeals too.

[kevinz000]

It's not metagrudging to treat people like shit if they treat like you shit on a per-round basis, jmad.

[Qbopper]

bullshit coming from me but maybe security needs to act like security officers trying to keep the peace and not trigger happy monkies with guns , and also, consider that behind every in game character is a human player like you. Some greyshits truely deserve the Gestapo but most of the time there's no reason to be as harsh and lethal as you possibly can be outside of shit like conversion antags and massive highpop riots.

security can start acting like human beings when anyone else on the station starts acting like human beings which is never

one issue I take with the "sec is just reacting to awful people by being awful" logic is that it's a defeatist attitude

defaulting to "well I heave to deal with shitheads a lot so everyone is a shithead" will create more annoying shitty behaviour, and you can stop that by, get this, not perpetuating the cycle - if neither side tries to make a change first, then nothing will happen

I guarantee you that if you get into a situation where ahelps are made and you've been (at least trying to be) respectful to the other person, and you had to escalate to crit/murder/etc, no one will fault you, and if you don't want to do it because you're afraid of the shitheads taking you out of the round, well, rule 10, and if they're doing it as a nonantag they'll be punished

I'm oversimplifying things, yes, but I 1000% guarantee you that things will not improve if everyone says "you can't make it better don't even try"

[Pascal125]

Some of us have tried and apparently we just get laughed at, jaded, and nothing really changes. Qbopper. It's at the point where, in my opinion. It's honestly gotten out of the player-bases hands and Admins need to start intervening and doing something. It's not really a defeatist attitude. It's more of a rational one. There's over 60+ Crewmembers and at most five Security members per shift. On good days. And out of those officers. Some might be new or dissapear only for some random Crewmember to be found with their gear, sometimes not even antag ones who refuse to turn it in and might even fight you over it. Because they think they are entitled to it.

Anyways, that's a lot of potential people shit talking/escalating over being arrested. It's quite likely and if the policy thread is anything to say for it, we can safely say it atleast happens. Even if you were being a respectable security officer.

[feem]

Here's my process when people ahelp about security:

1) Check the attack logs on both sides and make sure that whatever their story is makes sense. If there's conflict, figure out the inciting incident. Ask questions of both parties and see what matches up.

If there's no conflict, figure out why they were arrested. Maybe there's a mitigating circumstance, like revolution or a cult?

2) Figure out what the desired outcome of both parties is. Is the person ahelping a 3 minute sentence? Did the officer arrest a lizard because they were a lizard? Is it about being released or is it about stopping a loose cannon?

3) Give them the just desserts, soothe their bruised feelings, or call out the shitty behavior, e.g. "You got caught hacking APCs to turn off the lights. Eat your punishment, if you don't get let out after a certain amount of time or if you feel like it's escalated ahelp again.", "Did they assault you _immediately_ after the shuttle, or did they catch you on the way to a department? Maybe there are mitigating circumstances [cough cough cult] and they saw you weren't implanted and wanted to process you. Ahelp again if they don't let you out soon.", "You have literally no interaction with this player up until you arrested, cuffed, and harmbatoned them while calling them a 'filthy ligger.' This isn't your first time doing this. Enjoy your secban!"

4) If applicable and able, monitor to ensure that the situation doesn't further escalate outside of _what makes sense ICly for the situation_.

There's no concise flow chart to follow here. You have to investigate the situation and feel it out. Basically, being an admin, sometimes, is a lot like playing the game: you have to put yourselves in the shoes of the players (LOL ROLEPLAYING) and figure out what makes sense to do in the given situation. It's challenging sometimes because other people react to situations differently than you do.

This is why you see me defaulting to "lol rules" and "lol logic" when I do write-ups in the forums, or even in my ahelps (if there's time). When I can't understand why you've done something, I still need to pass it through the filter of "did this break any rules?"

As a result, I end up doing things I don't feel comfortable with, sometimes, as an admin: for example, someone being verbally and nonharmfully abusive to another player in a way that doesn't actually interfere with their job, just their feelings, is an IC issue. Sometimes, a player who makes a habit of being involved in extremely violent situations -- who's probably been banned for killing people without cause before -- beats someone down and the other player ahelps, and it turns out that it'd been a slow crawl towards this the whole round.

There's no situation where "bad player is always wrong," there's no situation where "good player is always right," there's no situation where "sec is always wrong/right", and there's no situation where the same sequence of localized events _inevitably_ leads towards a valid escalation. There are a lot of factors, and not a lot of time, and you have to do what you can to make the right call.

This is why it's paramount that 1) you ahelp when it happens, even if you don't think there's an admin on (because what if there is?), 2) You follow up your bans, notes, and warnings with appeals if you feel like they're unwarranted.

This helps everyone. It helps you get a better understanding of what you did or didn't do, it helps you make sure that whoever fucked you up was supposed to fuck you up, and it helps us by educating the playerbase, improving our own understandings of things we fucked up, and trying to keep the peace in a completely unruly world that we love for some reason.

[Qbopper]

well shit feem probably wrote up my thoughts better than I ever could have

[Nilons]

nilons and pascal: treat the shitty players like shit, treat the not-garbage players as human beings, ez.

No I didn't mean everyone's a shitter I meant people don't act like human beings in space station 13, you don't run everywhere, throw everything instead of putting it down, beat people to death for stealing your shit, craft explosive lance's as a civilian when you hear about a hit squad incoming. When the station is full of fucking nut cases why is security expected to be not crazy at least a little bit

[onleavedontatme]

Can someone please post logs of an admin letting someone kill security over doing their job before we have another theoretical thread about it?

Nobody was able to provide any examples of this happening last time I asked.

[J_Madison]

Can someone please post logs of an admin letting someone kill security over doing their job before we have another theoretical thread about it?

Nobody was able to provide any examples of this happening last time I asked.

I mean there was my ban where I got 1 month to week for the Pax incident. He didn't get a warning or note despite the fact he had me on neck-grab using OOC communication to get me there.

I'm not sure if it's an admin directly giving the order more than an admin calling it IC issue/ignoring it.

I can recall Suzuka Nakamoto killing/critting a Det and killing another to try and kill me as non-antag over my "creative punishment" handed to them.

[kevinz000]

nilons and pascal: treat the shitty players like shit, treat the not-garbage players as human beings, ez.

No I didn't mean everyone's a shitter I meant people don't act like human beings in space station 13, you don't run everywhere, throw everything instead of putting it down, beat people to death for stealing your shit, craft explosive lance's as a civilian when you hear about a hit squad incoming. When the station is full of fucking nut cases why is security expected to be not crazy at least a little bit

I'm talking about the players behind the screen if they're garbage and play to ruin everything for everyone you treat them as such but otherwise do recognize they're a person like you and they're also trying to have fun.
also adminning is just playing hos on an ooc level.
ez.

[onleavedontatme]

Can someone please post logs of an admin letting someone kill security over doing their job before we have another theoretical thread about it?

Nobody was able to provide any examples of this happening last time I asked.

I mean there was my ban where I got 1 month to week for the Pax incident. He didn't get a warning or note despite the fact he had me on neck-grab using OOC communication to get me there.

I'm not sure if it's an admin directly giving the order more than an admin calling it IC issue/ignoring it.

I can recall Suzuka Nakamoto killing/critting a Det and killing another to try and kill me as non-antag over my "creative punishment" handed to them.

That ban was involving IcePacks was stupid but was technically for a different scenario than what I am describing (you killed someone an admin told you not to, though for good reason I think, and I am asking for examples of admins signing off on players killing security).

The second sounds closer to what I am asking for but it depends on what "creative punishments" are because once you start going outside the boundaries of your job you're going to start losing admin protection for doing said job.

[tacolizard]

escalate my dick

[J_Madison]

That ban was involving IcePacks was stupid but was technically for a different scenario than what I am describing (you killed someone an admin told you not to, though for good reason I think, and I am asking for examples of admins signing off on players killing security).

The second sounds closer to what I am asking for but it depends on what "creative punishments" are because once you start going outside the boundaries of your job you're going to start losing admin protection for doing said job.

I wonder what would have occurred had I not reacted and prevented my death in time; if Pax killed me. How would have danno ruled it and would I have been able to ahelp and get a result?


For what I did to Suzuka, I pushed the boundaries of unconventional punishment and definitely could legally result in such retaliation;

I tracking and chemical implanted them.
I told them that I owned them and they couldn't do anything on the station without my permission.
I rearrested them for not asking me for permission to leave the brig.
I breathed down their neck via cameras all the time and would terrorise them.
Then I arrested them and forced them to do a "my little teapot" dance with emotes.
Poured them down the disposals.
Caught them again.
Sent them to gulag. Lost them here.
Killed them after they tried to kill me.

[D&B]

Can someone please post logs of an admin letting someone kill security over doing their job before we have another theoretical thread about it?

Nobody was able to provide any examples of this happening last time I asked.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7235

[kevinz000]

>tornadium

[imblyings]

Can someone please post logs of an admin letting someone kill security over doing their job before we have another theoretical thread about it?

Nobody was able to provide any examples of this happening last time I asked.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7235

What i said in that thread is still relevant.

There can be multiple opposing sides to one story, where both sides are right. Sec were maybe in the right to confiscate the tarot deck as unfun and shit as it might be, depending on who the owner was or what they were doing but the owner is under no obligation to let another player regardless of who they are just take something they earned.

[Cobby]

Can someone please post logs of an admin letting someone kill security over doing their job before we have another theoretical thread about it?

Nobody was able to provide any examples of this happening last time I asked.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7235

What i said in that thread is still relevant.

There can be multiple opposing sides to one story, where both sides are right. Sec were maybe in the right to confiscate the tarot deck as unfun and shit as it might be, depending on who the owner was or what they were doing but the owner is under no obligation to let another player regardless of who they are just take something they earned.

I'd agree had the guy not broke in to steal traitor gear [allegedly]. Being able to escalate to lethals on sec after they confiscate items that allow you to break in [albeit it's something that probably took a lot of skill to get] BECAUSE YOU PREVIOUSLY BROKE IN as a non-antag doesn't seem very fair, especially in this instance when he went to steal an emag.

[J_Madison]

really what can you do at that point.

there's my hypothesis and theory that sec is almost blameless because action vs reaction indicates that sec never started the problem.

of course this literally means nobody can do an action without getting spanked by sec.

[captain sawrge]

sec are just minimods dealing out round-long bans