Chaplain accountability

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J_Madison
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Chaplain accountability

Post by J_Madison » #318129

Bottom post of the previous page:

I am not happy about some Chaplains having little to no accountability recently and using cult/clock as an excuse to grief as a pseudo-protagonist.

I am also not happy about the complete lack of quality and accountability of Chaplains that have managed to suicide or get themselves arrested and in bad standing with sec during cult rounds.

Chaplain relics are also vitally important, yet they're frequently no-drop or not shared.

For such a vital job, there is zero accountability to it. And it is a unique job so brigging or executing them is often out of the picture.


Is there any way to enforce Chaplains better?
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Wyzack » #320467

Only tangentially related but i played a clock cult round yesterday as part of the cult and holy christ i had forgotten just how truly fucking awful it is
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Cobby » #320473

captain sawrge wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
RandomMarine wrote: Nope, because in any of those other modes I'm free to do what I want without suddenly getting a rule-enforced obligation to KILL DA HEDZ/SUMMON THE GODZ/DOM. There's this thing called roleplaying that can make almost any situation entertaining, something that can't really be done as a convert team antag without being bwoinked for abandoning your team because you stopped to go do whatever instead of scribbling runes or turning other spacemen horizontal.
You don't have this obligation though?

Don't confuse no sabotaging with actively participating, if cult try to convert one person then just play however you want. Just give them a nod every now and then if they need it to be a good sport

Bob used to just make plants the entire round when they were team antag so It would be odd for me to see that then turn around and punish everyone else for it without a headmins explicit request to do so
It is outright false to say that conversion modes are not primarily centered around the antagonist to the point of completely derailing a round, at least in most cases.

You can try to avoid participating but odds are you will either be caught in a crossfire or the round will progress to a point where you have no option but to participate in the round type or simply wait for the round to end.

Therein lies the issue with these modes: everyone gets dragged in by their very nature and has to play the same game over and over again. You are no longer playing SS13, you're playing cult on SS13.
Every gamemode revolves around the antagonist to the point of shifting the gamemode in some direction, that's why antags exist and why extended blows without some admin event.

But What does that have to do with the individuals obligation to the team from an admins perspective ?

Also oh my god mobile forum posting sucks
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by captain sawrge » #320480

It's just the matter that op is right in that this is a large design flaw but it would be fairly disengenous to treat chaplains with accountability. It's a code problem and an issue with the relevant modes, not a player problem.

That being said, headmins are the ones in charge of game mode rotation so if modes are so glaringly flawed it falls within their sphere of influence to potentially remove these modes from rotation until they are properly adjusted.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Anonmare » #320551

Why can't we have a chem recipe for making holy water?
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by bandit » #320561

Kor wrote:Having a civillian player who is expected to doodle with crayons on the floor in 8/10 round types and in fact will catch shit from security/admins for "validhunting" and then having that player be round critical with important mechanics hard locked behind them being a cooperative "validhunter" is a design problem more than an individual player problem I think.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Cobby » #320585

Is it really an issue at all though?
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by captain sawrge » #320587

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Is it really an issue at all though?
Evidently or the thread wouldn't exist.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Cobby » #320589

captain sawrge wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Is it really an issue at all though?
Evidently or the thread wouldn't exist.
That is an odd metric to use.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by starmute » #320590

Okay here's the thing. Honestly I think we can all agree that we need to fix this somehow, by design or some other way. (I mean correct me if I'm wrong here). The real question now is HOW should we fix it. And who would be willing to step up to the plate. I've always thought the chaplain role was weak and pretty dumb even before we had clock cult. I mean it was fun sometimes to role play but the average round you get little to no enjoyment out of it other than being a slightly less annoying clown.

Additionally as always cult needs to be reworked but that's another topic for a later date.

Also how would it NOT be a issue? Civilian jobs are supposed to not interfere with the station that much (AND THEN YOU HAVE BOTANIST). Not to mention Chaplains can't even cope with grief ghosts.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Cobby » #320592

No one who actually plays the game except jmad actually finds this problematic though. It's being played up by people who obsess over removing conversion modes.

Yeah it's shitty design but it *works* and there are numerous ways to mitigate the design flaw in the current iteration of the game. It's really a non issue outside of sec not accepting they too must abide by rule 10
Last edited by Cobby on Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by captain sawrge » #320593

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
captain sawrge wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Is it really an issue at all though?
Evidently or the thread wouldn't exist.
That is an odd metric to use.
Players and admins alike complain when sec decides to go death squad and murder people in huge swaths, often killing innocent players in an effort to quell cults. The issue is this is the most effective and safest strategy for sec to win these rounds especially considering deconversion is a coin toss on whether the joke civilian role is active, competent, willing to participate with sex and hasn't already been ganked and sac'd.

There's tons of issues with cult though that make it like this, this is just one such symptom of bad design.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by starmute » #320594

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:No one who actually plays the game except jmad actually finds this problematic though. It's being played up by people who obsess over removing conversion modes.

Yeah it's shitty design but it *works* and there are numerous ways to mitigate the design flaw in the current iteration of the game. It's really a non issue outside of sec not accepting they too must abide by rule 10
Half of the people who play the game don't even use the forums. I can tell you as a person who has played ss13 for years current cult is a problem and enough of a frustration to ruin a round.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Qbopper » #320601

captain sawrge wrote: Therein lies the issue with these modes: everyone gets dragged in by their very nature and has to play the same game over and over again. You are no longer playing SS13, you're playing cult on SS13.
Christ, I wish I had been able to express this, it's spot on

A gamemode that forces players to do something is, like, completely the opposite thing you want in a game based entirely around player creativity and uniqie interactions
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Cobby » #320604

starmute wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:No one who actually plays the game except jmad actually finds this problematic though. It's being played up by people who obsess over removing conversion modes.

Yeah it's shitty design but it *works* and there are numerous ways to mitigate the design flaw in the current iteration of the game. It's really a non issue outside of sec not accepting they too must abide by rule 10
Half of the people who play the game don't even use the forums. I can tell you as a person who has played ss13 for years current cult is a problem and enough of a frustration to ruin a round.
As someone who has played this for years, all gamemodes can piss you off to no end. It's part of the core game and not exclusive to cult.

Even if there was a problem, current cult and old cult both would have it.
Qbopper wrote:
captain sawrge wrote: Therein lies the issue with these modes: everyone gets dragged in by their very nature and has to play the same game over and over again. You are no longer playing SS13, you're playing cult on SS13.
Christ, I wish I had been able to express this, it's spot on

A gamemode that forces players to do something is, like, completely the opposite thing you want in a game based entirely around player creativity and uniqie interactions
a creative person would work with the situation they are in :^)

Also you have no obligation except to not sabotage the efforts of the team
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Qbopper » #320614

"you have no obligation to help" during team rounds is kinda shitty though

like, no, fuck off, I don't want to be converted into your shitty griff cult, but if I am I'm going to also feel like a dickhead for doing literally nothing and not helping the team - if everybody does that then what's the point of being converted?
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by captain sawrge » #320619

Cobby I do not think you are reading my posts, at least not very carefully, so I will just copy and earlier post instead of restating what I have already said.
You can try to avoid participating but odds are you will either be caught in a crossfire or the round will progress to a point where you have no option but to participate in the round type or simply wait for the round to end.

Therein lies the issue with these modes: everyone gets dragged in by their very nature
Either the cult gets so big that they force a win/start killing any remaining loyalists/generally fucks things up, or sec goes death squad and starts killing literally everyone to prevent this from happening.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by captain sawrge » #320621

During traitor there is a chance I will be murdered or dragged into some bullshit and have my round go off the rails or at least shaken up a bit. During cult it is almost a certainty.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Screemonster » #320631

captain sawrge wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Is it really an issue at all though?
Evidently or the thread wouldn't exist.
counterpoint: the thread was posted by jmad
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #320634

Qbopper wrote:"you have no obligation to help" during team rounds is kinda shitty though
I will say, when a blob arrives unless im someone actually important i ignore it for the most part because i know my eventual round-end and death is coming (or the professionals have it handled) for much the same reasons.

If you kill a changeling for instance and there's nobody around to open doors to the crematorium or kitchen for you by speedily dragging them there, then you're fucked because the ling has multiple revives unless you literally wall them with metal but thats exploitative but only other alternative to finding a way to irreversibly destroy the ckey mob. Its this sense of isolation where players can't handle things themselves but get thrown into a crossfire of bullshit (forced into a magical cult a first time player has probably never heard of slipping & cuffing people in hallways) in repeated rounds drains enthusiasm.
  • if you feel like you're being pulled into maint for conversion antagonists every other round then just split "secret" into two types with and without conversion antags at player discretion.
Its not a co-operative game being held on /tg/ and people begrudge working together because of our powergaming one for all-all for one playstyle where the singular individual is placed in higher regard than the rest. As being seen by a validhunting chaplain running around playing what is essentially the service armband police officer with no gear, but codebloated holy weapons, sometimes a soul stone to grief people by turning them into shades etc etc etc is essentially selfish.
  • look at some of the mining loot gear drops, virtually none of them have any application outside of personal use or interdepartmental function, its partly the reason id like to praise /vg's/ xenoarcheologist for digging up more inclusive artifacts rather than powercrept dungeon loot.
Screemonster wrote:
captain sawrge wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Is it really an issue at all though?
Evidently or the thread wouldn't exist.
counterpoint: the thread was posted by jmad
Counterpoint you're actively in here talking about it, so its serious business.
Last edited by FantasticFwoosh on Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by D&B » #320637

>Spur
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by bandit » #320638

The issue here -- as with almost everything -- is that the design wouldn't be flawed at all on a server where the chaplain actually did do something in most rounds, and "being against a cult" would at least resemble on the outside normal chaplain behavior. But we don't have that level of RP, so it's either nothing or full-on powerchaplain.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #320640

D&B wrote:>Spur
>Polar Star
>Literally a fucking self antag beacon
>Happiest Mask
>Claymores, Lances and swords
>Also guns
Wewlad. I meant the more monolithic large xeno-objects.

Our objects literally come out of chests like a dungeon crawler RPG its stupid as heck.
bandit wrote:The issue here -- as with almost everything -- is that the design wouldn't be flawed at all on a server where the chaplain actually did do something in most rounds, and "being against a cult" would at least resemble on the outside normal chaplain behavior. But we don't have that level of RP, so it's either nothing or full-on powerchaplain.
I play a decent RP chaplain but inevitably i get drawn into the rounds crossfire which is a pain. Librarian/curator recently has the same problem with the 100% disarm whip and the ability to spam/understand languages.

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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by PKPenguin321 » #320668

Reminder that the topic of this thread is not conversion modes and their design, but whether or not the chaplain should be treated like security roles are by admins.

I dislike this idea, mainly because the chaplain (as others have already said) isn't expected to do anything in most rounds and he doesn't choose what round type he's going to be playing in. Say a chaplain just wants to goof around and draw crayon runes or whatever and is suddenly forced (because of gamemode RNG) by admins to side with security immediately. This just seems like terrible gameplay and an awful experience for the chaplain in question.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by starmute » #320689

PKPenguin321 wrote:Reminder that the topic of this thread is not conversion modes and their design, but whether or not the chaplain should be treated like security roles are by admins.

While it isn't about design of cult it's linked due to that being the only round where Chapliains are important.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Qbopper » #320761

starmute wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Reminder that the topic of this thread is not conversion modes and their design, but whether or not the chaplain should be treated like security roles are by admins.

While it isn't about design of cult it's linked due to that being the only round where Chapliains are important.
yeah the topics are sorta inextricably linked, but pkp has a point I guess
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by onleavedontatme » #320764

Conversations evolve naturally to include related subjects and in this case the related subject is the root of the problem anyway
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by imblyings » #320807

Anonmare wrote:Why can't we have a chem recipe for making holy water?
so what would happen if chemists could make holy water
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Anonmare » #320819

imblyings wrote:
Anonmare wrote:Why can't we have a chem recipe for making holy water?
so what would happen if chemists could make holy water
Holy hand grenades, slightly easier time at making strange reagent but the biggest change would be that chemists could shoot cultists with holy water syringes.

Technically they can do that already, it's just difficult due to water tanks not being syringeable or accepting beakers and fire extinguishers being tamper-proof
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by J_Madison » #320829

I'll make a holy water recipe. You make it by boiling the hell out of water.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by feem » #320831

I see what you did there.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #320896

Anonmare wrote:
imblyings wrote:
Anonmare wrote:Why can't we have a chem recipe for making holy water?
so what would happen if chemists could make holy water
Holy hand grenades, slightly easier time at making strange reagent but the biggest change would be that chemists could shoot cultists with holy water syringes.

Technically they can do that already, it's just difficult due to water tanks not being syringeable or accepting beakers and fire extinguishers being tamper-proof
A tray of holy melons delivered to chemistry (or the reagent on demand) already fulfills that purpose.

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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by starmute » #320923

FantasticFwoosh wrote:
Anonmare wrote:
imblyings wrote:
Anonmare wrote:Why can't we have a chem recipe for making holy water?
so what would happen if chemists could make holy water
Holy hand grenades, slightly easier time at making strange reagent but the biggest change would be that chemists could shoot cultists with holy water syringes.

Technically they can do that already, it's just difficult due to water tanks not being syringeable or accepting beakers and fire extinguishers being tamper-proof
A tray of holy melons delivered to chemistry (or the reagent on demand) already fulfills that purpose.
Not everyone is a good botanist.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Cobby » #320924

starmute wrote:
FantasticFwoosh wrote:
Anonmare wrote:
imblyings wrote:
Anonmare wrote:Why can't we have a chem recipe for making holy water?
so what would happen if chemists could make holy water
Holy hand grenades, slightly easier time at making strange reagent but the biggest change would be that chemists could shoot cultists with holy water syringes.

Technically they can do that already, it's just difficult due to water tanks not being syringeable or accepting beakers and fire extinguishers being tamper-proof
A tray of holy melons delivered to chemistry (or the reagent on demand) already fulfills that purpose.
Not everyone is a good botanist.
Not everyone is a good cultist
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by starmute » #320948

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
starmute wrote:
FantasticFwoosh wrote:
Anonmare wrote:
imblyings wrote:
Anonmare wrote:Why can't we have a chem recipe for making holy water?
so what would happen if chemists could make holy water
Holy hand grenades, slightly easier time at making strange reagent but the biggest change would be that chemists could shoot cultists with holy water syringes.

Technically they can do that already, it's just difficult due to water tanks not being syringeable or accepting beakers and fire extinguishers being tamper-proof
A tray of holy melons delivered to chemistry (or the reagent on demand) already fulfills that purpose.
Not everyone is a good botanist.
Not everyone is a good cultist

You only need one. And frankly its alot easier on the cult side. But thats sidetracking the issue.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Cobby » #320956

You haven't played since march exactly how are you obtaining this information
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by BeeSting12 » #320965

starmute is right though.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by starmute » #320966

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:You haven't played since march exactly how are you obtaining this information

You know nothing of my ways and means. I am the omnighost......

(Nice you care enough to look up all my stats)

(I have friends who play space station 13, I get stories occastionally not to mention I play on other servers)

This story takes place less than a week ago. The names have been changed to protect the innocent

Friend: honk
Mute: : )
Friend: what did you do
Mute gods work
Friend : is it story time?
Mute: sure
Mute: tell me a story
Friend: This is the story of a clown who had a property dispute
Mute: : D
Friend: This clown claimed the library on Metastation as his home after triggering the display case alarm. Using grills, he tried to wall off the area until the hos and janitor cut through
Mute: Oh god no!
Mute: did the clown join the coffin club?
Friend: This clown however had a lawyer on his side who did his best to stall the HoS from gulaging him for robusting the janitor with pipes.
Mute: Good job lawyer!
Friend : He sure did a good job
Friend : Of disarming and harmbatoning that pesky hos.
Friend : And thus freeing the clown to becoming a servant of Ratvar.
Friend: The end!
Mute: YAY!
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #320992

starmute wrote: Not everyone is a good botanist.
Its the only mutation path, spam mutagen on watermelon to get it off the bat.

By good botanist you mean they aren't just in the job to manufacture ambrosia rollies all round and neglect all other plants. (but that's digressing)

Its so easy it might have to be removed/reworked if the pressure to produce holy water vs cult/others is shifted to botany's holy melon production just because the codified effects of holy hand grenade explosions are strong & its a crutch chemical reagent.

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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by starmute » #320994

FantasticFwoosh wrote:
starmute wrote: Not everyone is a good botanist.
Its the only mutation path, spam mutagen on watermelon to get it off the bat.

By good botanist you mean they aren't just in the job to manufacture ambrosia rollies all round and neglect all other plants. (but that's digressing)

Its so easy it might have to be removed/reworked if the pressure to produce holy water vs cult/others is shifted to botany's holy melon production just because the codified effects of holy hand grenade explosions are strong & its a crutch chemical reagent.
Again, thats assuming that the botanist CARES enough about cultists. Or looks in the wiki or even gives a damn. I mean seriously how often do you see it done?
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #320998

Go to the garden, pick up watermelon seeds and do preliminary garden maintenance, put your first watermelon harvest into the biogenerator and save a few seeds spare then run to chemistry and spam mutagen till you get holy melon. Without ever consulting or bothering hydroponics/botanists.

Not very often because the watermelon potency can be variable without stat tweaking but the point is its easily accessible and can be done in the place of cult/chaplain removal (its still a component of chemical reactions like strange reagent)
  • Again what is the chaplain without holy water? Just a shitter with a null rod which is literally a exclusive counter weapon that encourages shitty behaviour.

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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by starmute » #321008

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Go to the garden, pick up watermelon seeds and do preliminary garden maintenance, put your first watermelon harvest into the biogenerator and save a few seeds spare then run to chemistry and spam mutagen till you get holy melon. Without ever consulting or bothering hydroponics/botanists.

Not very often because the watermelon potency can be variable without stat tweaking but the point is its easily accessible and can be done in the place of cult/chaplain removal (its still a component of chemical reactions like strange reagent)
  • Again what is the chaplain without holy water? Just a shitter with a null rod which is literally a exclusive counter weapon that encourages shitty behaviour.
Which implies
  • Competent Gardner
  • Actually knows there is a cult round going on
  • Cares enough to actually fight a cult
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #321039

and D) Isnt converted by the cult because they stepped out to go get mutagen and got stunpapered and converted
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Cobby » #321044

Good thing there's several other ways to get holy water as stated several times in the thread :^)
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Cobby » #321045

starmute wrote:
FantasticFwoosh wrote:Go to the garden, pick up watermelon seeds and do preliminary garden maintenance, put your first watermelon harvest into the biogenerator and save a few seeds spare then run to chemistry and spam mutagen till you get holy melon. Without ever consulting or bothering hydroponics/botanists.

Not very often because the watermelon potency can be variable without stat tweaking but the point is its easily accessible and can be done in the place of cult/chaplain removal (its still a component of chemical reactions like strange reagent)
  • Again what is the chaplain without holy water? Just a shitter with a null rod which is literally a exclusive counter weapon that encourages shitty behaviour.
Which implies
  • Competent Gardner
  • Actually knows there is a cult round going on
  • Cares enough to actually fight a cult
Holy water is good for plants so you should try to get them regardless of round type
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #321050

m-m-muh strange reagent!

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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Nilons » #345382

Time to revive this meme, someone in ooc used this thread as evidence that they are allowed/should be allowed to do the following while playing chaplain:
1. Not produce holy water - sure whatever
2. Sabotage all means of creating holy water - dunk them I guess
3. If another chaplain slot is filled harass him and stop him from making holy water - literally sabotaging the crew at this point

and that there would be no repercussions over a long period of doing this every round

Do you think people should be admin approved in purposefully working against the crew every single cult round as chaplain
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Gigapuddi420 » #345979

Nilons wrote:Do you think people should be admin approved in purposefully working against the crew every single cult round as chaplain
I never got that impression. Just that the Chaplain doesn't have to follow the whim of security. So in your example, it's fine not to make holy water but sabotaging the water tanks or another Chaplain is just asking for trouble. At the very least security is fully within their right to arrest/kill him for sabotaging them during cult. If the Chaplain is intentionally sabotaging another productive Chaplain during cult then you could probably ahelp that shit because it's fucking stupid and actively sabotaging their own team.
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Cobby » #345985

There is no obligation to follow the head chaplain OOC wise as a secondary priest
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Arianya » #346257

Archbishop role when
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Re: Chaplain accountability

Post by Aloraydrel » #346259

Bring back dark pope
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