Chaplain accountability

[J_Madison]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I am not happy about some Chaplains having little to no accountability recently and using cult/clock as an excuse to grief as a pseudo-protagonist.

I am also not happy about the complete lack of quality and accountability of Chaplains that have managed to suicide or get themselves arrested and in bad standing with sec during cult rounds.

Chaplain relics are also vitally important, yet they're frequently no-drop or not shared.

For such a vital job, there is zero accountability to it. And it is a unique job so brigging or executing them is often out of the picture.


Is there any way to enforce Chaplains better?

[ShadowDimentio]

We had this conversation a while ago but just killing the cultist is always on the table and is very effective

[FantasticFwoosh]

Chaplains should not be magic shitcurity for the same reasons we have policy & rule protections against security abuse, most of the time incentivising the chaplain to fight rather than support will lead to swiftly losing the round by the chaplain getting killed and otherwise swarmed & sacced/spaced. Cult modes are highly accusatory conversion antagonists, where the only way to really confirm is to find paraphernalia or actively tie you up and force feed you holy water, which by that point the chaplain has already crossed over the lines to basically kidnap & strip you with them at their mercy.

Talking on design problem, coders feed into this by giving chaplain weapons gimmicks when essentially in its rawest form the null rod is a baseline self protection weapon rather than anything offensive.

[Qbopper]

Here is an idea

Remove both cults because they are shitty and unfun, the players voted them as the least favorite game modes and their very existence makes the rest of the game worse by forcing stupid wide-impacting design decisions.

i posted in the hut about this - arm pointed out that literally every time I log in and he's on I get fucked by the no fun griff cult when I try to do something interesting and it's killing my enjoyment of the game, I genuinely don't want to bother doing interesting things anymore because there's a good chance I'll just get converted anyways - with a traitor you can have some interesting interactions that aren't "haha u ded" but conversion modes are probably the #1 killer of "rp"

this is horribly off topic please don't reply to that point before this thread explodes

Having a civillian player who is expected to doodle with crayons on the floor in 8/10 round types and in fact will catch shit from security/admins for "validhunting" and then having that player be round critical with important mechanics hard locked behind them being a cooperative "validhunter" is a design problem more than an individual player problem I think.

I was going to post this - maybe there's a problem with cult when the gamemode heavily relies on what would otherwise be considered a joke role

[FantasticFwoosh]

Or you could just kill them. Cultists can't ressurect, worse they can do is spam ghosts at you but even then that's not very effective.

[Lazengann]

This isn't related to the thread subject exactly but I'm with Qbopper, one round about six of us decided to build a new station on lavaland to avoid cult shenanigans, we stocked up on supplies and were having fun roleplay until I got converted and was obligated by the rules to walk to the AI sat and watch youtube videos while standing in a 3x3 square for the rest of the round

[onleavedontatme]

Here is an idea

Remove both cults because they are shitty and unfun, the players voted them as the least favorite game modes and their very existence makes the rest of the game worse by forcing stupid wide-impacting design decisions.

i posted in the hut about this - arm pointed out that literally every time I log in and he's on I get fucked by the no fun griff cult when I try to do something interesting and it's killing my enjoyment of the game, I genuinely don't want to bother doing interesting things anymore because there's a good chance I'll just get converted anyways - with a traitor you can have some interesting interactions that aren't "haha u ded" but conversion modes are probably the #1 killer of "rp"

this is horribly off topic please don't reply to that point before this thread explodes

I've spoken to several people who stopped playing because of conversion modes, and more specifically cult happening what felt like every other round.

I took a month break myself because I was sick of those modes popping up seemingly every time I logged in.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Is Joan adding another cult round with its own problems (remembering all the grudge coding drama versus hulks etc specifically because of random things making Joan lose the round) a root cause of making it worse?

WJohnston has a sincere interest in xenos which often garners mixed opinions as per another unnessecary and inflammatory conversion antagonist being inserted into the round, and if all the development goes into fixing clockcult which to this day seems to be largely unorganized IC'ly & endlessly fiddled with in github, as we've seen firsthand development into making our existing bloodcult mode better and as good as it can be is considerably slowed.

Gang is just a more formalised version of revolutionaries and we already have two types (one that doesn't even work properly)

[kevinz000]

If we're going to go off topic I might as well add:
Conversion modes are action packed.
Action packed is atleast a moderate part of tg.
This means they're fun in MODERATION.
One, two rounds in 8 hours? Acceptable. (3 is definitely stretching it.)
8 hours of conversion? You get a bunch of players sick of the same stuff.
Point is, they happen too much to be fun.
If I wanted tdm 24/7 there's Colonial Marines.

[J_Madison]

Or you could just kill them. Cultists can't ressurect, worse they can do is spam ghosts at you but even then that's not very effective.

no
i cant greentext
i'm not here to ruin other people's rounds because they get caught in the crossfire

Is Joan adding another cult round with its own problems (remembering all the grudge coding drama versus hulks etc specifically because of random things making Joan lose the round) a root cause of making it worse?

WJohnston has a sincere interest in xenos which often garners mixed opinions as per another unnessecary and inflammatory conversion antagonist being inserted into the round, and if all the development goes into fixing clockcult which to this day seems to be largely unorganized IC'ly & endlessly fiddled with in github, as we've seen firsthand development into making our existing bloodcult mode better and as good as it can be is considerably slowed.

Gang is just a more formalised version of revolutionaries and we already have two types (one that doesn't even work properly)

clock cult is far more balanced and reasonable than bloodcult. there's plans to remove bloodcult.

If we're going to go off topic I might as well add:
Conversion modes are action packed.
Action packed is atleast a moderate part of tg.

it either gones one of 3 ways;
conversion stomps sec
sec stomps conversion
long round shuttle called conversion doesnt win

[FantasticFwoosh]

Not with how irresponsibly joan has in the past tried to "balance" the mode by literally grude removing other game features in a petty manner. Both modes might not be good and as soon as Joan is out of the project as per a long term projection it'll end up just like bloodcult without token coder to flagship & generally care for it

[Lazengann]

Who made that one clock construct deal damage just by ramming and decided it was fair and balanced

[NikNakFlak]

why does JMad keep saying that his ultimate goal is to not ruin people's rounds yet all I see from him is ruining people's rounds

[FantasticFwoosh]

why does JMad keep saying that his ultimate goal is to not ruin people's rounds yet all I see from him is ruining people's rounds

Projection

[Anonmare]

We could make anybody able to bless holy water as long as they have a bible. Perhaps for balancing there's a small chance of success for a non-holy person with a failure doing some sort of damage, like brute/burn/brain or whatever.
Sec can print off bibles from the computer in the permabrig, as well as the library and there's one or two in the chapel itself, in addition to the ones the chaplains spawn with.

[D&B]

I remember in vg you were able to bless water if you had the chaplain job title.

I'm guessing it would be better than just being able to print Bibbles

[RandomMarine]

I've spoken to several people who stopped playing because of conversion modes, and more specifically cult happening what felt like every other round.

I took a month break myself because I was sick of those modes popping up seemingly every time I logged in.

Jesus Christ this.
99% of rounds I either observe or hope someone makes drones because I don't want it to turn out to be a revolution or a blood/clock/gun cult round and someone runs up to me with a flash/paper/pen then suddenly I'm obligated to drop whatever gimmick or character I had in mind to commit to completing the goal.
If I wanted to put up with being forced to work with a bunch of assholes in 45-60 minute sessions or risk being banned I'd just go play fucking dota.

The inverse applies to the topic at hand. Making it a ruling for the chaplain to do everything in their power to fight the cult/wizard/whatever is the same problem but flipped around to the other side.

[ShadowDimentio]

I've spoken to several people who stopped playing because of conversion modes, and more specifically cult happening what felt like every other round.

I took a month break myself because I was sick of those modes popping up seemingly every time I logged in.

I stopped playing at several points because traitor, 50% of our round rolls, was getting seriously fucking tedious. If you're constantly exposed to the same rounds they start getting boring and formulaic, this happens to every round type, and isn't somehow unique to conversion modes.

You know what would happen if you got what you wanted and we we went to just traitor? You'd get bored with that too, likely even faster.

[Lazengann]

Traitor is the game mode I don't tire of

[PKPenguin321]

I'm not open to enforcing a policy of treating chaplain like security at this time. Don't know about the other headmins. Feel free to bicker here since it's possible the other headmins might disagree with me, but if either agrees no action will be taken on this.

[ShadowDimentio]

Traitor is the game mode I don't tire of

It's good, but if you roll a bad job or don't have a fun gimmick to run it's terribly boring for all involved.

[RandomMarine]

I stopped playing at several points because traitor, 50% of our round rolls, was getting seriously fucking tedious. If you're constantly exposed to the same rounds they start getting boring and formulaic, this happens to every round type, and isn't somehow unique to conversion modes.

You know what would happen if you got what you wanted and we we went to just traitor? You'd get bored with that too, likely even faster.

Nope, because in any of those other modes I'm free to do what I want without suddenly getting a rule-enforced obligation to KILL DA HEDZ/SUMMON THE GODZ/DOM. There's this thing called roleplaying that can make almost any situation entertaining, something that can't really be done as a convert team antag without being bwoinked for abandoning your team because you stopped to go do whatever instead of scribbling runes or turning other spacemen horizontal.

[J_Madison]

Yeah well if you want to self cantered focus on your round, then don't intervene in the round when antags are around.

Seems like a double standard to not want to assist team antag on conversion but it's fine to be a dick to them, sabotage them, and assist in their doom.

We're getting off topic.

Cult needs more ways to deconvert if the admins aren't willing to solve the player problem.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Or you could just kill them. Cultists can't ressurect, worse they can do is spam ghosts at you but even then that's not very effective.

It will always be the preferred method by players, and as such cult mode conversions without rev esque ways to hit people so hard they forget they were rev's might end up unviable without a chaplain for a soft descalation.

As opposed to a chaplain whipping out the most metagame null rod type and beating cultists to death.

[Grazyn]

Well it's not limited to team antags, there is an established server culture that if you're not following the most efficient and effective way to do something, you're a newb and a dead weight to the team. You can easily experience this by playing scientist and taking slightly longer to do rnd and watch as miners start to break in to do it themselves, or play a head of staff and enjoy being second-guessed by your underlings.

[Lazengann]

R&D is just a flowchart how do you fuck it up

[Nabski]

Or you could just kill them. Cultists can't ressurect, worse they can do is spam ghosts at you but even then that's not very effective.

It will always be the preferred method by players, and as such cult mode conversions without rev esque ways to hit people so hard they forget they were rev's might end up unviable without a chaplain for a soft descalation.

As opposed to a chaplain whipping out the most metagame null rod type and beating cultists to death.

Quoting yourself and being this wrong.

There is literally a rune called Resurrect Cultist.

[D&B]

Well it's not limited to team antags, there is an established server culture that if you're not following the most efficient and effective way to do something, you're a newb and a dead weight to the team. You can easily experience this by playing scientist and taking slightly longer to do rnd and watch as miners start to break in to do it themselves, or play a head of staff and enjoy being second-guessed by your underlings.

Maybe because people are only expected to play heads if they're extremely knowledgeable in their field?

[J_Madison]

yo don't bwoink me when I massacre two departments worth of staff and begin spacing anyone in maint or in hallways.

I used the comms console to centcomm and asked for Paranormal Response teams to back me up, not my job to deconvert without a chaplain.

Next time assist in sending a way for me to stomp cult, and deconvert. Or I'll send up stomping cult and everyone.


That's the attitude being promoted here. I just want a fair and sportsmanlike shift.

[Grazyn]

Well it's not limited to team antags, there is an established server culture that if you're not following the most efficient and effective way to do something, you're a newb and a dead weight to the team. You can easily experience this by playing scientist and taking slightly longer to do rnd and watch as miners start to break in to do it themselves, or play a head of staff and enjoy being second-guessed by your underlings.

Maybe because people are only expected to play heads if they're extremely knowledgeable in their field?

Doesn't matter if you're knowledgeable, there's always going to be that one salty guy who lost the head slot roll and makes it up by second guessing their boss and nitpicking every single thing. And yes rnd is a flowchart (even though everyone seems to have his own "perfect" flow and you also have to keep up to date with the newest items) my point is that it only takes you one step off the flow to be shoved aside by a miner or another scientist. E.g. being scolded by a fellow scientist because you "messed up his flow" by deconstructing a few items and raising a couple tech levels while he was away from the room.

/tg/ is probably the most competitive ss13 server and it shows in every player interaction, antag or not. The only difference is that team antags are usually honed and fixed by coders to the point of being almost foolproof, and you have to be utterly incompetent to fuck the whole team up on you own. Nuke ops are a great example, I rememebr coders even lowered jetpack speed at some point to make it harder for them to lose each other in space, they have syndicate pins so that the crew can't use the guns if they drop them and so on.

[Grazyn]

R&D is just a flowchart how do you fuck it up

the fact that you equate "taking slightly longer" with "fucking it up" really proves my point

[FantasticFwoosh]

That's the attitude being promoted here. I just want a fair and sportsmanlike shift.

Antags wont have to slow down or be sportsmanlike at all really without strict policy. This motivates people to play the same way in return.

[J_Madison]

That's the attitude being promoted here. I just want a fair and sportsmanlike shift.

Antags wont have to slow down or be sportsmanlike at all really without strict policy. This motivates people to play the same way in return.

Yeah well be the change you want to be. People have been far more sparing and honourable since I've pushed for sportsmanship as a HOS.

I use ego and pride down to demoralise and weaken people because at the end of the day, they're still human and many of them just want to play the round.

All it takes is one person to set the example and trust, and another to honour their trust and values and the shift becomes more fun for everyone.

Anyway with team antag, restrictions on forcing them to be passive and submissive to you applies differently, but I have gotten cultists prides and ego down and made them understand that their life was on my hands and it would be easier for them to settle down.

That's how you get sportsmanship on SS13.





Roleplay or die.

[onleavedontatme]

I've spoken to several people who stopped playing because of conversion modes, and more specifically cult happening what felt like every other round.

I took a month break myself because I was sick of those modes popping up seemingly every time I logged in.

I stopped playing at several points because traitor, 50% of our round rolls, was getting seriously fucking tedious. If you're constantly exposed to the same rounds they start getting boring and formulaic, this happens to every round type, and isn't somehow unique to conversion modes.

You know what would happen if you got what you wanted and we we went to just traitor? You'd get bored with that too, likely even faster.

I never said I wanted only traitor though?

And traitor has tons of room for all kinds of wild stories and possibilities beyond the antagonists if you give players the leeway rules wise, its why I have been harping on the IC issue thing for years.

[captain sawrge]

lol u fall for da bait stupid boneless slime come home from work

[FantasticFwoosh]

Roleplay or die.

On /TG. You're deusional

[Nabski]

Roleplay or die.

On /TG. You're deusional

I managed to convince a mauler to not kill me in warops the other day. Just because it's rare doesn't mean it can't happen.

This entire thread is just J_mad, the man, the myth, the legendary joke.

[Qbopper]

If we're going to go off topic I might as well add:
Conversion modes are action packed.
Action packed is atleast a moderate part of tg.
This means they're fun in MODERATION.
One, two rounds in 8 hours? Acceptable. (3 is definitely stretching it.)
8 hours of conversion? You get a bunch of players sick of the same stuff.
Point is, they happen too much to be fun.
If I wanted tdm 24/7 there's Colonial Marines.

suepr l8 sorry but yes

I don't want conversion modes gone entirely that's poor hyperbole, but they're like wiz rounds - once in a while for a change of pace? sure! every other round as a major gameplay mode? pass

[NikNakFlak]

yo don't bwoink me when I massacre two departments worth of staff and begin spacing anyone in maint or in hallways.

I used the comms console to centcomm and asked for Paranormal Response teams to back me up, not my job to deconvert without a chaplain.

Next time assist in sending a way for me to stomp cult, and deconvert. Or I'll send up stomping cult and everyone.


That's the attitude being promoted here. I just want a fair and sportsmanlike shift.

This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read and you are highly delusional.
This is your forum equivalent of "So because of X I can be shitty and do Y" except forum edition with
the reason being no policy was created. And here you also go on about fair and sportsman again after literally
talking about massacring two departments. All figurative but you can't keep playing both sides of the ballpark here
and from history, we all know that you really only care about the game and not other people.

[John_Oxford]

change the world chaplain to admin throughout this entire thread

[J_Madison]

This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read and you are highly delusional.
This is your forum equivalent of "So because of X I can be shitty and do Y" except forum edition with
the reason being no policy was created. And here you also go on about fair and sportsman again after literally
talking about massacring two departments. All figurative but you can't keep playing both sides of the ballpark here
and from history, we all know that you really only care about the game and not other people.

you don't even play

giving examples of real cases

not my playstyle; read: among lowest kill ratios of HOS players.

read hos diaries, i care about the story, experience, and interaction rather than the game.

This entire thread is just J_mad, the man, the myth, the legendary joke.

get at me.
if I can change one person for the better. that's a win for me.

[Steelpoint]

Just remove both cult game modes from the game.

Conversion game modes have made me never want to play security.

[NikNakFlak]

This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read and you are highly delusional.
This is your forum equivalent of "So because of X I can be shitty and do Y" except forum edition with
the reason being no policy was created. And here you also go on about fair and sportsman again after literally
talking about massacring two departments. All figurative but you can't keep playing both sides of the ballpark here
and from history, we all know that you really only care about the game and not other people.

you don't even play

giving examples of real cases

not my playstyle; read: among lowest kill ratios of HOS players.

read hos diaries, i care about the story, experience, and interaction rather than the game.

You keep using that statistic and being a man of information science, I'll need to see the data that warrants you making that claim, otherwise, stop talking out of your fucking ass and being cancerous as fuck

[FantasticFwoosh]

Just remove both cult game modes from the game.

Conversion game modes have made me never want to play security.

As much as it pains me, it'd probably make the game less magic ridden, besides from oddities like wizard and make cult walls/floors etc more exotic.

[Armhulen]

Just remove both cult game modes from the game.

Conversion game modes have made me never want to play security.

As much as it pains me, it'd probably make the game less magic ridden, besides from oddities like wizard and make cult walls/floors etc more exotic.

That's good, it'll make magical artifacts more valuable and mysterious as you see it way more rarely

[starmute]

I think there needs to be ghostbuster packs. Not chaplains. They were always a flavor role like lawyers. That being said clock cult is very overpowered due to their ability to spawn mobs.

[Cobby]

Nope, because in any of those other modes I'm free to do what I want without suddenly getting a rule-enforced obligation to KILL DA HEDZ/SUMMON THE GODZ/DOM. There's this thing called roleplaying that can make almost any situation entertaining, something that can't really be done as a convert team antag without being bwoinked for abandoning your team because you stopped to go do whatever instead of scribbling runes or turning other spacemen horizontal.

You don't have this obligation though?

Don't confuse no sabotaging with actively participating, if cult try to convert one person then just play however you want. Just give them a nod every now and then if they need it to be a good sport

Bob used to just make plants the entire round when they were team antag so It would be odd for me to see that then turn around and punish everyone else for it without a headmins explicit request to do so

[captain sawrge]

Nope, because in any of those other modes I'm free to do what I want without suddenly getting a rule-enforced obligation to KILL DA HEDZ/SUMMON THE GODZ/DOM. There's this thing called roleplaying that can make almost any situation entertaining, something that can't really be done as a convert team antag without being bwoinked for abandoning your team because you stopped to go do whatever instead of scribbling runes or turning other spacemen horizontal.

You don't have this obligation though?

Don't confuse no sabotaging with actively participating, if cult try to convert one person then just play however you want. Just give them a nod every now and then if they need it to be a good sport

Bob used to just make plants the entire round when they were team antag so It would be odd for me to see that then turn around and punish everyone else for it without a headmins explicit request to do so

It is outright false to say that conversion modes are not primarily centered around the antagonist to the point of completely derailing a round, at least in most cases.

You can try to avoid participating but odds are you will either be caught in a crossfire or the round will progress to a point where you have no option but to participate in the round type or simply wait for the round to end.

Therein lies the issue with these modes: everyone gets dragged in by their very nature and has to play the same game over and over again. You are no longer playing SS13, you're playing cult on SS13.

[Wyzack]

Only tangentially related but i played a clock cult round yesterday as part of the cult and holy christ i had forgotten just how truly fucking awful it is

[Cobby]

Nope, because in any of those other modes I'm free to do what I want without suddenly getting a rule-enforced obligation to KILL DA HEDZ/SUMMON THE GODZ/DOM. There's this thing called roleplaying that can make almost any situation entertaining, something that can't really be done as a convert team antag without being bwoinked for abandoning your team because you stopped to go do whatever instead of scribbling runes or turning other spacemen horizontal.

You don't have this obligation though?

Don't confuse no sabotaging with actively participating, if cult try to convert one person then just play however you want. Just give them a nod every now and then if they need it to be a good sport

Bob used to just make plants the entire round when they were team antag so It would be odd for me to see that then turn around and punish everyone else for it without a headmins explicit request to do so

It is outright false to say that conversion modes are not primarily centered around the antagonist to the point of completely derailing a round, at least in most cases.

You can try to avoid participating but odds are you will either be caught in a crossfire or the round will progress to a point where you have no option but to participate in the round type or simply wait for the round to end.

Therein lies the issue with these modes: everyone gets dragged in by their very nature and has to play the same game over and over again. You are no longer playing SS13, you're playing cult on SS13.

Every gamemode revolves around the antagonist to the point of shifting the gamemode in some direction, that's why antags exist and why extended blows without some admin event.

But What does that have to do with the individuals obligation to the team from an admins perspective ?

Also oh my god mobile forum posting sucks

[captain sawrge]

It's just the matter that op is right in that this is a large design flaw but it would be fairly disengenous to treat chaplains with accountability. It's a code problem and an issue with the relevant modes, not a player problem.

That being said, headmins are the ones in charge of game mode rotation so if modes are so glaringly flawed it falls within their sphere of influence to potentially remove these modes from rotation until they are properly adjusted.

[Anonmare]

Why can't we have a chem recipe for making holy water?