Excessive self defense equipment

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Excessive self defense equipment

Post by J_Madison » #321582

This is a discussion of the recent ban, to set new precedents on how the rule is enforced.
And to allow discussion of the recent ban without the fear of deleted posts and warning.


Would you brig and/or permabrig for ridiculous amounts of "self defense" equipment on non-antags and nonsec for little to no reason.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by PKPenguin321 » #321585

Are you gonna make a thread here every time you get banned?
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by PKPenguin321 » #321587

Anyways, preemptively permabrigging somebody for gear that could be used to kill people is like raiding toxins round start for the TTVs, or in other words, is really gay.

If you HAVE to do something about it, I'm a believer in confiscate and release. In your specific instance, take away the hypo and toss them out after they serve a timed sentence.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by J_Madison » #321591

PKPenguin321 wrote:Are you gonna make a thread here every time you get banned?
this year, only one ban was reasonable.

Every other ban has set a shitstorm of a hung jury where players and admins disagree with the ban. Every other ban I've had this year I have not served the full ban length.

Hell you can call out facts on the admins. A powergamer banning someone for punishing powergaming is like Pax banning someone for brigging greytiding or welderbombing.

If I'm banned unreasonably and it's a hung jury of players and admins, I'm opening a thread to find how the community is hung over it.
Last edited by J_Madison on Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by J_Madison » #321593

PKPenguin321 wrote:Anyways, preemptively permabrigging somebody for gear that could be used to kill people is like raiding toxins round start for the TTVs, or in other words, is really gay.

If you HAVE to do something about it, I'm a believer in confiscate and release. In your specific instance, take away the hypo and toss them out after they serve a timed sentence.
I didn't raid anyone - I have a no first use policy as sec, I only do things in response. They lurked outside the brig and was arrested by someone else. I used this opportunity to search them.

I'm not releasing someone who has shitty uncooperative attitude. And it opens room for escalation. Unless we get your writing and enforcement that you'll prevent this kind of escalation consistently, I simply don't think releasing at that stage is on the table.

I'm not risking me getting killed over escalation and being bwoinked "IC issue".
Last edited by J_Madison on Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by PKPenguin321 » #321594

J_Madison wrote:I'm not releasing someone who has shitty uncooperative attitude. And it opens room for escalation. Unless we get your writing and enforcement that you'll prevent this kind of escalation consistently, I simply don't think releasing at that stage is on the table.
I disagree, and I think this attitude is what got you banned.
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by J_Madison » #321596

PKPenguin321 wrote:
J_Madison wrote:I'm not releasing someone who has shitty uncooperative attitude. And it opens room for escalation. Unless we get your writing and enforcement that you'll prevent this kind of escalation consistently, I simply don't think releasing at that stage is on the table.
I disagree, and I think this attitude is what got you banned.
So you want me to let players with bad attitude and uncooperative and defiant players out?

That's a risk to mine, and everyone elses rounds. I've done this before and I had people ahelp me for doing that. I got bwoinked because someone I released used esclation to attack sec.

I learn from mistakes.

I'd like you to set it out on writing you and all the admins won't label the escalation as an "IC issue" and actually deal with those people that do something stupid, get punished, and use that to punish me for doing my job.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by BeeSting12 » #321597

PKPenguin321 wrote:Anyways, preemptively permabrigging somebody for gear that could be used to kill people is like raiding toxins round start for the TTVs, or in other words, is really gay.

If you HAVE to do something about it, I'm a believer in confiscate and release. In your specific instance, take away the hypo and toss them out after they serve a timed sentence.
There's no comparison to confiscating deadly weapons that have no legitimate use beyond self defense when the person already has two nonlethal self defense items and taking the TTVs roundstart.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by onleavedontatme » #321598

Admins have said time and time and time and time and time and time and time again that a legitimate arrest for an actual crime is not grounds to escalate against security
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by PKPenguin321 » #321599

J_Madison wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
J_Madison wrote:I'm not releasing someone who has shitty uncooperative attitude. And it opens room for escalation. Unless we get your writing and enforcement that you'll prevent this kind of escalation consistently, I simply don't think releasing at that stage is on the table.
I disagree, and I think this attitude is what got you banned.
So you want me to let players with bad attitude and uncooperative and defiant players out?
Yeah. Level with them and maybe try to talk them down a bit, take gear they could use to kill people with so they don't attack people willy nilly, and throw them back out to the wild. If they come back, you still have the upper hand what with being sec (and what Kor said), so just arrest them again and then escalate the punishment there instead of preemptively permabrigging people.
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by onleavedontatme » #321601

Kor wrote:Admins have said time and time and time and time and time and time and time again that a legitimate arrest for an actual crime is not grounds to escalate against security
The only possible confusion I can see stemming from this otherwise ironclad protection is that sometimes security starts arresting people over non issues like drawing on the floor in crayon and dismembering people and then act shocked and appalled that a "criminal" had the nerve to "grief" them when they suffer an IC consequence for acting worse than the antagonists.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by J_Madison » #321603

PKPenguin321 wrote:
J_Madison wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
J_Madison wrote:I'm not releasing someone who has shitty uncooperative attitude. And it opens room for escalation. Unless we get your writing and enforcement that you'll prevent this kind of escalation consistently, I simply don't think releasing at that stage is on the table.
I disagree, and I think this attitude is what got you banned.
So you want me to let players with bad attitude and uncooperative and defiant players out?
Yeah. Level with them and maybe try to talk them down a bit, take gear they could use to kill people with so they don't attack people willy nilly, and throw them back out to the wild. If they come back, you still have the upper hand what with being sec (and what Kor said), so just arrest them again and then escalate the punishment there instead of preemptively permabrigging people.
I did this with an admin DGL in a round.
I could not descalate them, I could not talk them down, they later punished me when I released them.

I'm not taking that advice when the very admin that banned me has been such a pain to me when I play sec.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by PKPenguin321 » #321604

Then enjoy your ban
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by J_Madison » #321607

PKPenguin321 wrote:Then enjoy your ban
That's fine. Give my HOS diaries a read. I'm the most de-escalating HOS ever.

I'll go on record and say this here, I've tried de-escalating with that CMO before and it didn't work. DGL knows I don't try to RP to talk him out, or descalate things because he doesn't RP or descalate. And we mutually understand what this means to eachother.

Don't make the same mistake twice.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by PKPenguin321 » #321608

J_Madison wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Then enjoy your ban
That's fine. Give my HOS diaries a read. I'm the most de-escalating HOS ever.

I'll go on record and say this here, I've tried de-escalating with that CMO before and it didn't work. DGL knows I don't try to RP to talk him out, or descalate things because he doesn't RP or descalate. And we mutually understand what this means to eachother.

Don't make the same mistake twice.
Your mistake in this case was preemptively permabrigging people, so I hope you take your own advice
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by J_Madison » #321610

PKPenguin321 wrote:
J_Madison wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Then enjoy your ban
That's fine. Give my HOS diaries a read. I'm the most de-escalating HOS ever.

I'll go on record and say this here, I've tried de-escalating with that CMO before and it didn't work. DGL knows I don't try to RP to talk him out, or descalate things because he doesn't RP or descalate. And we mutually understand what this means to eachother.

Don't make the same mistake twice.
Your mistake in this case was preemptively permabrigging people, so I hope you take your own advice
I would have punished them the same either way. That level of incomptence, theft, and abandoning duty is clearly above and beyond a 10 minute sentance. It was only because of Warden incompetence that they were released.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by BeeSting12 » #321611

PKPenguin321 wrote:
J_Madison wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Then enjoy your ban
That's fine. Give my HOS diaries a read. I'm the most de-escalating HOS ever.

I'll go on record and say this here, I've tried de-escalating with that CMO before and it didn't work. DGL knows I don't try to RP to talk him out, or descalate things because he doesn't RP or descalate. And we mutually understand what this means to eachother.

Don't make the same mistake twice.
Your mistake in this case was preemptively permabrigging people, so I hope you take your own advice
They had already done several crimes though, so it's not really preemptive.

edit: "I had an esword and an ebow, I've done no wrong why are you permaing me!?"
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by PKPenguin321 » #321619

BeeSting12 wrote:edit: "I had an esword and an ebow, I've done no wrong why are you permaing me!?"
Not the same
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by onleavedontatme » #321620

I also don't think a head of staff having gear that starts in his own locker is "excessive self defense equipment" or "theft."

Using the hypo with sleep chems has been standard practice for something like seven years now.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by captain sawrge » #321625

If the cult was known prior to you arresting the CMO you would have had a leg to stand on but
I'm really confused why they have no medical items bar the medkit (roundstart spawned) and they have so much poison/instastun and weapons.
they've clearly shown no intention to play as a conpetent medical or head of staff.
makes it sound like you're trying to abuse your position as HoS to regulate OOC behavior.

Security aren't minimods, trying to regulate playstyles as a sec player is an abuse of your IC authority.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by J_Madison » #321626

i found out it was cult just as I was stripping them
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by feem » #321630

I posted this in the ban appeal thread and while it isn't directly a response to the question asked in this thread, I think it's a relevant thing to include in the discussion:

You are responsible for your own behavior.

Admins are responsible for enforcing the rules and resolving situations in which players break those rules.

Security is responsible for enforcing, and following, space law, OR in extreme situations, being responsible for the safety of the station crew and command personnel.

Non-security characters do not have many of the same restrictions in place regarding their following of space law, but as a consequence they also do not have a lot of the same protections that security has when doing things like preemptively arresting and searching people or rolling thunder on a department when there's cause to do so.

Players are responsible for following the rules of the game and of their role.

There are a lot of places where security's role of following space law and protecting the crew lines up nicely with the admin role of enforcing rules and resolving situations in which players break those rules (murderboner assaulting the station without cause, WGW, etc etc etc); this leads to a lot of people on either side of the baton feeling like, in some cases, security is doing a miniature, IC version of the administrator's role.

This is not the case.

It is not the player's role to make judgments based upon OOC rules as to whether or not another player's behavior is appropriate for the game; it not the player's role to make judgments based upon another player's playstyle as to whether or not they 'deserve' to be in the round; it is not a player's role to mete out punishment for perceived violations of the rules.

This is true whether the player is security or not.

However, as stated in the role descriptions above, security does have some more leeway when it comes to enforcing the places where these things overlap, provided that they follow the established policies and precedents from which they derive this protection.

This means that as a regular sec officer, in a regular situation, you need to defer to the warden when they say they've served their time. You can't arrest someone for the same crime twice. You can't unilaterally decide to perma someone with the intent of actually perma-ing them (I'm not talking about the one-off situation in which you dump someone there for a sec because the brig blew up, or because there's a fight going on, or something like that -- I'm talking about your own stated intent of permaing this person).

You can't decide to assassinate someone when there's not already an extreme situation going on and you've been given authorization to do it. An exception is if it is a life or death situation in which any player would be expected to defend themselves, and even then, because of your role and your protections, if the word hasn't already been given that lethals are valid, you're still expected to throw that prisoner in a cell alive.

Obviously there are exceptions, like nuke ops, and extremely hectic revolution rounds, and maybe even certain rounds of clock cult and blood cult. But the bottom line here is that security players are no different from regular players except in the very specific ways outlined in the rules, and those differences include both exceptions to the existing escalation policies and increased scrutiny and rules of conduct.

Security players are NOT responsible for "enforcing things that administrators have declared IC issues," they have no relationship to administrators at all. They are a specialized job in the game with a special set of restrictions to go along with their special set of allowances.

You are responsible for your own behavior.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by Cobby » #321664

Perma the atmos tech next for replacing pumps with manual valves

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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by BeeSting12 » #321685

PKPenguin321 wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:edit: "I had an esword and an ebow, I've done no wrong why are you permaing me!?"
Not the same
both have the same capacity for murder one just happens to be obtained easily onstation
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote: Anyone who says emojis in IC will receive a fifteen minute cell time and if you ban me for it you're encouraging OOC in IC
i legitimately have done this and also killed/cloned the warden for really excessive OOC in IC
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OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
oranges wrote:Bee sting is honestly the nicest admin, I look forward to seeing him as a headmin one day
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by PKPenguin321 » #321686

BeeSting12 wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:edit: "I had an esword and an ebow, I've done no wrong why are you permaing me!?"
Not the same
both have the same capacity for murder one just happens to be obtained easily onstation
so you recognize the difference, but don't see why that might change how security should react to it?
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by J_Madison » #321700

You do not need enough drugs to sedate two departments and two different kind of weapons to go along with it.

Especially when it shows minimal work done to make medbay work for the time being.
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Re: Excessive self defense equipment

Post by imblyings » #321702

You are not an admin

You do not have a high horse to punish players from for OOC issues. An appropriate way for approaching CMO's loaded for bear is to tell the captain is available, or confiscate and release as pkp has said. Not perma them.
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