Notes are automatically deleted after X time

[Cobby]

I know this is bordering Coder-Admin lines but I think notes should automatically be deleted unless specifically marked after a certain period of time. Yes this is loosely based off of some things said in the RusselTalbot appeal

Notes should reflect how the person recently behaves in order to act on the CURRENT situation admin-wise. Most notes from years ago do not do this and only really serve [imo] to mislead admins and consequently condemn players. As a player I'd be kinda upset if my ban time was based on a single, similar incident I had literally years ago. Some notes like confirmed metacomms may be important enough to exclude from this which is why I think an option should be made similar to secret.

A half-way point could be to hide these old notes unless you specifically click to view them if you're afraid something vital would be lost.

[Armhulen]

why not keep them, they're a good tell of their history as a player but if admins are acting on them the admin is shit

[Cobby]

what purpose does say a single note of "IC in OOC" from 2010 tell me in 2017? Those really only serve as bloat from potentially important notes like "alt of excessiveuseofdiamond" or something.

In the instance I am looking at notes from years ago, I would prefer if only the ones I'd practically use to be there.

[Qbopper]

what purpose does say a single note of "IC in OOC" from 2010 tell me in 2017? Those really only serve as bloat from potentially important notes like "alt of excessiveuseofdiamond" or something.

In the instance I am looking at notes from years ago, I would prefer if only the ones I'd practically use to be there.

Maybe you could compromise and have major/minor notes - minor notes are still saved, but it only displays recent ones at a glance, and major ones will always be immediately visible on opening the note page

I'd like to assume no one on the admin team is dumb enough to abuse that system

[NikNakFlak]

No notes exist from 2010, the database as we know it started in 2012

[Cobby]

No notes exist from 2010, the database as we know it started in 2012

YOU GET THE POINT

[pubby]

Ban history would have to be deleted too. The example in the appeal thread was based on ban history, not a note.

[bandit]

I'm just going to repeat my stance:

"Notes counting against someone" is bad when the notes are inaccurate and/or based on subjective judgment calls. Obviously if a note is factually incorrect it should go, that's pretty uncontroversial. Even accurate notes are short, inevitably leave out context, might not even be correct, and if an admin in 2020 reads a note from 2017 saying "Killed an assistant FNR" taking it at face value when the actual situation was more gray or complicated, that's a problem.

However, there are certain things that are black-and-white rules, the kind of thing where you should learn your lesson once and it is reasonable to expect someone to never do it again. These can be extreme, like ban evading, crashing the server, rape, etc., or small yet strictly enforced things like IC in OOC. Prior bans are very useful information here because they demonstrate that a person has not learned an incredibly easy lesson or is unwilling to follow an incredibly basic rule. If you get permabanned for raping someone in 2013, get unbanned and spend four years not raping anybody, then rape someone again in 2017, then your four years of not raping anybody do not absolve you. This argument would get laughed out of basically any court in the world.

The fact that this thread sprung from doubling an IC in OOC ban is especially stupid because A) that's generally accepted admin protocol since as long as I can remember and B) it amounts to the cruel and unusual punishment of 15 extra minutes.

That said I do wish there was a way to consolidate notes. Especially with the uptick recently in people using chatspeak in IC these notes add up FAST. Partly that's on the players, who clearly are not learning their lesson, but it still results in a lot of spam.

(There's also the separate issue that as much as players hate when the person they ahelp doesn't get banned, they hate it even more when they don't get a note. I can't count the number of times I've told players that I've spoken to someone and told them to cut shit out, made restitution if appropriate in the round, but they rage at me, because I didn't leave a note and they're out for blood.)

[Armhulen]

tl;dr it seems like free info we're throwing away here also why is this in policy and not admin forums? why do players get a say in this??

[bandit]

I think players might want to have a say in how their history is used for and/or against them in appeals/complaints

[Armhulen]

want sure but should they? probably not, this is us creating, editing, and deleting notes

[CPTANT]

To be honest a lot of notes seem to be about the subjective ruling of the case and not the actual event.

"OOC in IC" is not a factual description of events

"said lolz once in in game chat" is the factual description of such an event.

[imblyings]

no, since you have people who act shit, leave for a while but act shit on other servers, then come back. Admins are human beings who are capable of looking at timestamps and should not need code to do that.

[Armhulen]

no, since you have people who act shit, leave for a while but act shit on other servers, then come back. Admins are human beings who are capable of looking at timestamps and should not need code to do that.

based answer

[Steelpoint]

Do notes clog up the code or server? I don't really see a reason to remove notes automatically over time.

[onleavedontatme]

MSO mentioned making notes slowly fade to grey based on age before defaulting to hidden but he had other projects to finish and never got around to it.

I think that + listing account age + listing connection amounts on the players note panel will help give a bit more context than simply a list of the worst things they have ever done. Conversely, it will highlight troublesome players with only a handful of connections but a bunch of notes.

[Lumbermancer]

I don't want my Free Drone note removed ever. It's the only heritage I have.

[TribeOfBeavers]

Would adding a "Connections since note:" stat be helpful? It would help differentiate between someone who plays rarely but consistently breaks rules and someone who plays a ton and occasionally makes a mistake.

[Qbopper]

no, since you have people who act shit, leave for a while but act shit on other servers, then come back. Admins are human beings who are capable of looking at timestamps and should not need code to do that.

thank

To be honest a lot of notes seem to be about the subjective ruling of the case and not the actual event.

"OOC in IC" is not a factual description of events

"said lolz once in in game chat" is the factual description of such an event.

the vast majority of OOC in IC notes, from my experience, are the format "Warned for OOC in IC: [offending sentence]" - it's poor form to not provide an explanation

[Cobby]

Yeah deleting them is probably not the best option for an automated system when I can cherry pick them.

I'd just like a more visual way to say this is a bit old of a note so it may be wise to give them the benefit

[bandit]

I think a visual indicator is beside the point until we establish more consensus about what to do about old notes.

[imblyings]

Use your brain maybe

This really is a non problem or shouldn't be if we can consider timestamps and check connection dates. Notes only when they connect? Notes but spread across a large amount of connections? Etc

[oranges]

now that the headmins have declared their opposition to this, we're free to implement it

[imblyings]

NOBODY juice the orange

[Atlanta-Ned]

Maybe switch note timestamaps to show the relative amount of time since the note was placed vs. the current absolute timestamp? I did that on my iteration of the admin tools specifically because of this issue.

[Cobby]

Use your brain maybe

This really is a non problem or shouldn't be if we can consider timestamps and check connection dates. Notes only when they connect? Notes but spread across a large amount of connections? Etc

wtf I want to be HANDHELD!!!!

[Qbopper]

Maybe switch note timestamaps to show the relative amount of time since the note was placed vs. the current absolute timestamp? I did that on my iteration of the admin tools specifically because of this issue.

I think this or some other form of "hey this note is old" would be nice. because then it gives you a quick at a glance summary of the person's notes

like, if someone does something really minor, and I open their notes and they have like 20 from 2013, but one from 2017, I'm probably not going to give them a hard time

it's not a super important issue for reasons previously explained though

[feem]

I like number of connections since note.

I don't think that's super-feasible or pretty to do from the byond perspective (without a stored procedure or something on the mysql side) but it'd be nice