Responsibility in escalation

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captain sawrge
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Responsibility in escalation

Post by captain sawrge » #325468

This is an extension of the Russelltalbott note. The gist of it is
-player does something shitty
-victim kills this player in escalation
-victim is held responsible by admin for not going out of their way to clone the aggravater.

Should players that kill/crit in reasonable escalation be expected to to revive the one that provoked it?

Personally I think in most cases a second chance is just another opportunity for them to come back and kill you and this isn't worth the effort. It favors people provoking fights and then killbaiting and taking the fight into an OOC issue.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by feem » #325474

I think a distinction needs to be drawn between repeated action/last resort/unprovoked attack, and I think making a hard and fast ruling on this is difficult and may be a bad idea.

I do think that there's definitely a point where it doesn't make sense and is in fact potentially dangerous and disruptive to revive someone. But I also know that there are a lot of situations where someone will use a "valid" scenario to permanently remove someone from the round when that may not be justified.

Maybe something like team antag, where you're not expected to necessarily help them, but also can't needlessly restrict them from re-entering the round. Note that I said needlessly. If there's a solid, obvious, defensible reason to remove their chances of coming back, then that falls under regular escalation policy.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by feem » #325475

tl;dr split second overreaction shouldn't be followed up with a gibbing, but an unprovoked lethal attack (MORE than just the threat of one) certainly could be
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by imblyings » #325480

There is no hard answer.

Unprovoked griff by an assistant can be met with critting the cunt and tossing him out the department doors into a hallway. A small disarm slapfight over a clown's PDA might turn into someone being bashed to death with a fire extinguisher and in those cases, a player might be required to bring the other person to medbay.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by CPTANT » #325485

I think the mentality that should be avoided is over escalating because someone else MIGHT do something.

Like killing and dumping someone's body into space because "if he got cloned he would just kill me"

Well no you shit that is not what happened, what happened is that he punched you once.

Sec also seems to suffer from this sometimes.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Lazengann » #325490

If they've done something worth killing them over, you should have no obligation to help them after.

Examples:
-Russell's situation, he shouldn't get flak for not helping the Clown.
-A chaplain who won't leave a department and hits back with his dark blessing after getting disarmed. Whoever stabs his eyes out should not have to heal him.

If they're killed or crit from something like an HoP line punch up, then they should be healed as killing someone over a scuffle is not kosher.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Limski » #325507

Let's not forget that this is a role-playing game.

Did the other spessman anger your spessman enough to justify you murdering him?
If not, let it end like all fights do and make sure they end up in Medbay, otherwise let them rot.

There should be no OOC repercussions for the latter.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by D&B » #325515

Wasn't there a thread that mentioned how if you have sufficient reason (escalation/etc) to kill someone, you were clear to space them too?

It seems dumb that if someone escalated to the point where you're in the clear to kill them you're supposed to keep them in the round
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Nilons » #325517

I think you should only be required to get someone medical attention if you shouldn't have critted them in the first place. Otherwise there has to be a half step in when its ok to crit someone/when its ok to crit and heal someone/ when you shouldnt crit them at all
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by BeeSting12 » #325531

My general policy is bring them to medbay if it's just an overescalated slapfight and leave 'em in the hallway if they probably deserved to die but not get spaced. If they come back for round two after either of those then I cremate/gib them. If at any point they 100% certainly deserved to permanently die then cremate/space/hide body. I don't think I've ever gotten in trouble for doing this sort of thing if the person deserved to die in the first place.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by PKPenguin321 » #325627

This goes by context, so no real hard policy can be made on it.

In my opinion, generally if you're escalating as a non-antagonist and you crit somebody there's not even a need to kill them in the first place as they're already totally helpless in the majority of cases. I usually just throw their critted body to medbay, which counts as helping them without forcing the player to actively take time out of their round to heal the person they just critted. If they succumb that's on them.

Just as a rule of thumb, don't jump straight to murder as the first step of your escalation (unless they do something that makes you absolutely certain it would be okay (you catch them in the act of murdering a bunch of people, they're an antag)), and if regular conflict does end in murder then at the very least toss the body to medbay. As an extension of this rule, if they come back for more later then usually murder would be acceptable, but again this is up to context.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Cobby » #325658

> crit someone
> take them to medbay
> they get healed
> come back
> they kill you

If you're going to force people to coddle those who have picked a fight and lost then there really needs to be some policy that disallows the instigator from starting the conflict again because as of now being critted by someone and going back is /generally/ IC escalation.
Last edited by Cobby on Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by captain sawrge » #325680

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:>crit someone
> take them to medbay
> they get healed
> come back
> they kill you

If you're going to force people to coddle those who have picked a fight and lost then there really needs to be some policy that disallows the instigator from starting the conflict again because as of now being critted by someone and going back is /generally/ IC escalation.
This is the main situation I'm getting at.

When it's a case where one person is a clear instigator, whether by assault or theft or whatever crime enough to merit critting someone, why should the initial victim have to help out the aggressor? I really think this kind of stuff should be totally hands off on an OOC level. If you get into a fight and ahelp losing you're abusing the administration system.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by feem » #325703

If you start a fight apropos of nothing and get dunked, and ahelp, I'm either not doing anything about it or giving you a warning for banbaiting.

If someone walks into your department and you kill them and gib the body the first time you see them trespassing with no mitigating factors, I'm bwoinking you.

If you start big shit, you get big shit. But if you use someone else starting an extremely trivial and unimportant bit of shit as an excuse to remove them from the round, then you're the problem.

It's a simple concept but difficult to codify for every situation.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by ShadowDimentio » #325710

The escalation tiers go

Verbal
Disarms
Punches
Weapons
Crit w/ heal
Kill

If someone's being killed either the killer is either escalating badly or the victim deserves it. If you're being enough of a faggot for someone to kill you, they are in no way obligated to clone you, as you very clearly were the one being a douche.

Sit out the rest of the round and reflect over how to not get your ass beat in the future.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by feem » #325765

This is kind of an aside, but it's about related situations: it's also worth noting that a LOT of the 'dindu nuffin killed/attacked/arrested me fnr' ahelps we seem to get come from people who break into the captain's quarters and start mass disarming them, or who knock tasers out of security officers' hands and lead them on a merry chase during an antag-heavy round, or who follow someone into the armory and start loading their pockets with weapons when they haven't been invited to and there's no immediate threat, or who break into some important area and do something 'as an experiment' (e.g. turn off gravity, put n2o in the pipes, steal a plasma tank).

You are NOT safe from being called out on banbaiting behavior when you ahelp for something just because you didn't 'harm' anyone. If you act like an antag, you get dunked like an antag.

There are a lot of good(?) players who push the boundaries on this, but the thing that makes them good(?) is that they are perfectly okay taking the beatdown that they deserve.

A lot of times something is an IC issue because it can be handled by people ICly retaliating. That only becomes a problem if the escalation process is short-circuited (e.g. killed someone because they took a welding mask from robotics and literally did nothing else) or if it's not a legitimate retaliation and is just someone murderboning for fun, etc.

In my team at work we have a saying: "Provocative, but not malicious." As a greytider, if you can stick to that, and accept your IC just desserts, you probably will be fine.

Note, however, that we usually bwoink to find out what's going on if we see someone doing something really shitty as a non-antag, like releasing plasma, or setting off welderbombs, or throwing grenades. If it turns out you have a reasonable explanation, we move on. So make sure you have a reasonable explanation.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Screemonster » #326201

I'm reminded of the legal concept of fighting words.
As in, there are technically nonviolent actions you can take that are still blatantly going to get your ass beat for doing them and you shouldn't bitch if you do them and then someone beats your ass.

If you're that kid who goes up to another kid and waves his arms around them and lunges at them and stops at the last minute and says "I'm not touching you, you can't do anything!" when they get pissed off at this, only to yell to the teacher when they finally shove back as though you've got some moral high ground because they were the ones that escalated to actual physical contact first, the teacher knows exactly what kind of little shit you are.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by DrPillzRedux » #326313

I like how people are now agreeing with my sentiment on escalation from last year.

>ligger griffs sec by breaking windows, disarming officers and stealing sec shit
>they disarm me, I stun them with my baton
>they start breaking my detectives office window
>I shoot them with the shitty detectives revolver
>they come back, take my revolver, and space it
>ask HoS about it, they just say to space em because they've already been brigged 3 times
>space the ligger
>okand: WOW WHY DID YOU SPACE THE SHITTY LIGGER
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Reece » #326458

Escalation is a fools game. Decapitation strike is the best option. Shoot to kill.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Arianya » #327091

I would say that escalation should also take into account what the "killer" chose to carry.

If you have access to tazers and stunbatons but you choose to only carry around a confiscated esword then you're kind of a shit when you escalate what would have been a taze and done to a full body mutilation because "All I had was an esword!"
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by bandit » #327144

Another factor is going out of one's way to start shit. The difference between a legit conflict that arises organically, and someone following a player around (for instance) and constantly provoking them, where the path of least resistance would be to not do that.

That said this does not work the other way around. You can go out of your way to clone someone but you are still responsible for your actions.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Cobby » #327173

Arianya wrote:I would say that escalation should also take into account what the "killer" chose to carry.

If you have access to tazers and stunbatons but you choose to only carry around a confiscated esword then you're kind of a shit when you escalate what would have been a taze and done to a full body mutilation because "All I had was an esword!"
People already get banned for this, although I'm sure FantasticFwoosh can tell you all about that :^)
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by BeeSting12 » #327176

Arianya wrote:I would say that escalation should also take into account what the "killer" chose to carry.

If you have access to tazers and stunbatons but you choose to only carry around a confiscated esword then you're kind of a shit when you escalate what would have been a taze and done to a full body mutilation because "All I had was an esword!"
what is the point of being hos if i cant kill people with my antag gear
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Arianya » #327276

BeeSting12 wrote:
Arianya wrote:I would say that escalation should also take into account what the "killer" chose to carry.

If you have access to tazers and stunbatons but you choose to only carry around a confiscated esword then you're kind of a shit when you escalate what would have been a taze and done to a full body mutilation because "All I had was an esword!"
what is the point of being hos if i cant kill people with my antag gear
Too bad you can't kill a corgi cult for shit >:(
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Arianya wrote:I would say that escalation should also take into account what the "killer" chose to carry.

If you have access to tazers and stunbatons but you choose to only carry around a confiscated esword then you're kind of a shit when you escalate what would have been a taze and done to a full body mutilation because "All I had was an esword!"
People already get banned for this, although I'm sure FantasticFwoosh can tell you all about that :^)
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by CPTANT » #332864

I think this ban apeal shows how disproportionate our rules are against "the person who started it"

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12808

>Pick up tray out of kitchen
>Get beat to crit by chef
>Kill the chef

NO YOU STARTED IT HUR DUR BAN
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Lazengann » #332890

Did you even read Kor's reply
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by pubby » #332891

The chef doesn't have a way to remove people from his kitchen other than by attacking them with his knife. The problem is that the other players take knifey stabby to mean lethal escalation, and respond of course by fighting back. And if they get crit, they now have their valids to get revenge on the chef. It's awful all around.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Lazengann » #332909

The problem was that the chef didn't tell him to leave. Kor was right in that the chef could've been adminhelped. Current policy is fine.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by feem » #332917

CPTANT, it's possible for more than one person to do the wrong thing in a given situation.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by bman » #332920

Chef should've been banned for ban-baiting.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by bandit » #332922

At the risk of yet another litigating Ban Appeals/peanut gallerying in Policy Discussion:

Of course the burden is naturally going to be on the person who started it, and that is how it should be. Sometimes the conflicts are organic and mutually escalated. But more often in my experience, the defender didn't ask to get involved in a conflict. The instigator is the person who made the choice to start shit, often for petty and/or graytiding reasons. Start shit get hit.

In this case, the guy wanted to break in and steal a tray (he never said why he deserved to have a tray, which you really don't NEED if you're not the chef) when there are approximately a dozen ways to get a tray that do not involve breaking into the kitchen and then gibbing the person who doesn't want you there. The chef just wanted to go about his business. They're not equal situations.

(The fact that this kind of thing is litigated by admins OOC instead of security IC is a problem, but a separate one.)

EDIT TO ADD: New shit has come to light about the incident in question, please take this as a general comment and not specific to the incident
Last edited by bandit on Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by bandit » #332924

non-edit to add: Also about *why* you are doing a thing. Stealing a tray because there are war ops and you want to be armed? I don't know why you'd want a tray, but no one would fault you. Stealing a tray just because you can? Fuck outta here.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by CPTANT » #332928

feem wrote:CPTANT, it's possible for more than one person to do the wrong thing in a given situation.
It is possible for neither side to be wrong.....

That is the entire point of escalation.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by imblyings » #332944

DrPillzRedux wrote:I like how people are now agreeing with my sentiment on escalation from last year.

>ligger griffs sec by breaking windows, disarming officers and stealing sec shit
>they disarm me, I stun them with my baton
>they start breaking my detectives office window
>I shoot them with the shitty detectives revolver
>they come back, take my revolver, and space it
>ask HoS about it, they just say to space em because they've already been brigged 3 times
>space the ligger
>okand: WOW WHY DID YOU SPACE THE SHITTY LIGGER
But did you get banned for this pillz
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Oldman Robustin » #334855

The simplest escalation rule is to simply require "reasonable" reactions to other people's behavior.

Not reasonable in any real-world sense of course, but reasonable in terms of how it impacts another player's round. Our escalation policy seems to have dumbed down over the years into "do whatever the fuck you want to anyone who bothers you".

Scenario: Greyshirt breaks robotics window and starts trying to break into the surgery area.

You can:

1) Ignore it

2) Tell them to leave

3) Call security

4) Attack them with minimal force using disarms, a flash, a few punches, etc.

5) Attack them with lethal force but either let them flee or drag them out in crit

6) Use overwhelming force to kill them as quickly as possible and permanently remove them from the round(i.e. flash + circ saw until debrained, space the brain)


It's much healthier for the game to encourage people to stick with #1 to #4. The reality is that even this standard "greytiding" is at most a minute or two of inconvenience and authorizing lethal force because someone broke your window in a non-critical location is silly. Even though the assistant is the "aggressor" here, in my view they lose that status if a roboticist wordlessly enters the room and starts trying to hack their limbs off for breaking and entering. The story shifts if the assistant uses violence to try and stick around, pulls out a weapon or other contraband, or makes repeat intrusions.

Smart policy is to keep everything in context and not let people murder each other over slight inconveniences or nuisances.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Qbopper » #334865

Oldman Robustin wrote:The simplest escalation rule is to simply require "reasonable" reactions to other people's behavior.

Not reasonable in any real-world sense of course, but reasonable in terms of how it impacts another player's round. Our escalation policy seems to have dumbed down over the years into "do whatever the fuck you want to anyone who bothers you".

Scenario: Greyshirt breaks robotics window and starts trying to break into the surgery area.

You can:

1) Ignore it

2) Tell them to leave

3) Call security

4) Attack them with minimal force using disarms, a flash, a few punches, etc.

5) Attack them with lethal force but either let them flee or drag them out in crit

6) Use overwhelming force to kill them as quickly as possible and permanently remove them from the round(i.e. flash + circ saw until debrained, space the brain)


It's much healthier for the game to encourage people to stick with #1 to #4. The reality is that even this standard "greytiding" is at most a minute or two of inconvenience and authorizing lethal force because someone broke your window in a non-critical location is silly. Even though the assistant is the "aggressor" here, in my view they lose that status if a roboticist wordlessly enters the room and starts trying to hack their limbs off for breaking and entering. The story shifts if the assistant uses violence to try and stick around, pulls out a weapon or other contraband, or makes repeat intrusions.

Smart policy is to keep everything in context and not let people murder each other over slight inconveniences or nuisances.
I agree, but it's also important to consider the overall context

if shitter mcfuckhead has been constantly annoying you all round it's probably reasonable to just go to #5 after the 4th time he's climbed the table and tried to steal the surgery tools
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #335573

I agree that escalation policy has swung too far from "You are powerless against the greys" towards "Being in a department not your own is an automatic on the spot death sentence"
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by CPTANT » #335597

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I agree that escalation policy has swung too far from "You are powerless against the greys" towards "Being in a department not your own is an automatic on the spot death sentence"
And a ban if you fight back.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Lazengann » #335609

No the policy is as perfect as it's going to get
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by captain sawrge » #336038

kill anyone that f*s with you but don't ahelp whe nyou get pwned for it
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Cobby » #336120

Even if we create unofficial lines [that is, well you can only kill after XYZ has occurred otherwise you've overescalated], people will still toe these lines since they have became de facto rules. It's why you have people ahelp for "well I did X but they did Y and Y was too much of a response to X so I think they should be banned".

You cannot win.

It's why the "transgressor takes his [un]just due" policy is really the only fathomable way to enforce it that doesn't end up in people exploiting the system, which sucks.

Honestly just IC issue it 24/7 and it's a coin flip of whether they escalated properly or not :^)
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by onleavedontatme » #336130

The way that I generally enforce it is if someone wrongs you then 1-6 are all generally acceptable IC responses. If you don't want to suffer disproportionate bad consequences then don't wrong people in the first place.

But if you overescalate (5-6) like a psychopath over something minor then they're allowed to go nuts back, you've forfeited your killbaiting protection. If you don't want to get "killbaited" respond non lethally or call security or something.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Cobby » #336234

Kor wrote:The way that I generally enforce it is if someone wrongs you then 1-6 are all generally acceptable IC responses. If you don't want to suffer disproportionate bad consequences then don't wrong people in the first place.

But if you overescalate (5-6) like a psychopath over something minor then they're allowed to go nuts back, you've forfeited your killbaiting protection. If you don't want to get "killbaited" respond non lethally or call security or something.
This is a really good way to handle it.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Dr_bee » #336469

It is surprising how hard it is for people to actually ROLE PLAY, escalation as a rule is based entirely on roleplaying the situation out like a rational, normal human.

"would doing this get me put in prison in real life" is a good guideline to follow in escalation, and calling security needs to be used as an option more.

If you straight up murder a dude without even asking sec to toss the guy out then you may have gone a bit too far.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Grazyn » #338935

I don't think it's worth a new thread so I'm gonna use this one. Reading one of the latest ban appeals made me think and I'd like a clarification on something.

Situation: sec officer permabrigs someone, admin tells the officer to release the guy. What happens if the guy tries to kill the officer when he comes in?

On one hand, admin interference means the permabrigging was unjust, and thus the guy should be allowed to escalate against the officer (perma being the same as execution rule-wise), and there is a precedent for an officer being banned after he killed a prisoner (whom he was told to release by an admin) when the prisoner attacked him in perma. This interpretation looks sound according to server rules: if someone is griefing, they're valid both IC and OOC, and a griefer killing someone they griefed when they react falls under kill-baiting. The prisoner attacking the officer was nothing other than reaction against a griefer, and while killing the officer was thus valid, the officer defending themselves was not.

On the other hand, one could say that the situation was already being dealt with by the admin when he told the officer to release the guy, and the guy should not attack the officer because being released is already compensation for the griefing they suffered. But this seems counter-intuitive compared to how other similar situations are usually dealt with: an admin wouldn't chastise someone for trying to kill a griefer who kidnapped and locked them in a room for 10 minutes, even if admin intervention was needed to free them, and surely wouldn't let the griefer kill the guy "in self defense" when they come for him.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Nilons » #338958

That's happened with I think icepax and jmad, may have been repukan. What happens is you get banned for not leting the prisoner kill you apparently despite that making no sense whatsoever
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by imblyings » #338972

>be kindergarten teacher
>some toddler takes a toy from a second toddler for no raisin
>sigh but get up to deal with it by asking the toddler to give the toy back to the second toddler
>toddler fumbles over with the toy in hands, about to give it back when the second toddler punts him in the face
>now have to deal with a lawsuit from angry parents

similarly if you ask for OOC intervention, that is a massive de-escalation because you've just asked for an admin to come in and settle things. Or at least it should be this way. If you've asked for an admin to settle things but still want to settle things yourself well then dont ask for an admin.
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Grazyn » #338977

So to clarify: Officer goes back to free prisoner as requested by admin, prisoner attacks him

case 1: officer kills the guy -> officer is in the clear, guy had already requested admin intervention and thus forfeited any further escalation on his part
case 2: prisoner kills the officer -> prisoner gets warned/banned for the reason stated above
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by imblyings » #339000

case 1, unless there are circumstances which cannot be foreseen
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Re: Responsibility in escalation

Post by Gigapuddi420 » #339038

imblyings wrote:similarly if you ask for OOC intervention, that is a massive de-escalation because you've just asked for an admin to come in and settle things. Or at least it should be this way. If you've asked for an admin to settle things but still want to settle things yourself well then dont ask for an admin.
Normally I go with this, but from time to time you get put on hold and left to stew in a shit situation. I don't blame anyone for solving something in character when left to hang in limbo for 10+ minutes after a admin responded 'I'll look into it'. Even worse if that limbo includes being locked in a room with no ID or equipment. It can be a bit of a slap in the face to finally resolve grief on your own long after you told a admin about it then hear about how the whole thing doesn't matter anymore. Comes across as the admin just wiping their hands of the initial ahelp by waiting for it to fix itself.

Sometimes things are happening fast enough a issue will resolve itself, but when it opens with a pretty clear cut problem and gets left that long it is very frustating.
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