Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

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PKPenguin321
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Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby PKPenguin321 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:11 pm #326667

A ban appeal recently brought up this topic, and I think player input would be good to have before taking action.

PKPenguin321 wrote:The policy in question:
We're enacting a new policy that randomly killing admin event things for literally no reason is grounds for a note/tempban/permaban (depending on past behavior) for random murder. In the past, this has been let off as ghost roles are often valid, but that's no longer going to be the case. Unless the ghost role is something small and intended to be valid like a sentient cockroach or frog, the ghost role is inherently evil or antagonistic, or the person playing the ghost role does IC escalation to build up to murder, then admin event roles can be treated as any other default roles.

For example: Bumrushing and killing the centcomm inspector at arrivals docks for no reason as a non antagonist would be a note/tempban/permaban for random murder.

When I wrote this it was directed towards admin event ghost roles, as in roles given to ghosts by admins, rather than ones that spawned on the map. I for some reason failed to take actual map-spawned ghost roles into consideration when I came up with the wording for this ruling, which has now led to confusion. Stupid mistake, I know.

The validity of map-spawned ghost roles is a separate issue that I suppose could be debatable. Technically there isn't official policy, but I think the policy I quoted just a second ago could easily be applied to map-spawned ghost roles (especially considering the wording already unintentionally implies as much). I'll have to talk to another headmin about it.

Kor wrote:The official policy of ghost roles has been massively relaxed escalation and basically following the roleplay guidelines of their flavour text.

Relaxed escalation/motivation can include things like "I want to kill the free golems for their minerals" or "that drone just stole my hat." It doesn't mean completely at random though.


Do you guys think these ideas are accurate in practice? Should they be changed?

I think that relaxed escalation is true, as well as how relaxed the escalation is scaling with how disposable the ghost role is. For example, drones are incredibly disposable and therefore are basically free to kill just for being a minor annoyance.
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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby D&B » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:40 pm #326679

If that's the current escalation guidelines for them, then it seems fine in my personal opinion. But honestly it all should go out the window if the ghost role is trying to abuse its role to just be a second life.
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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby Cobby » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:49 pm #326683

D&B wrote:If that's the current escalation guidelines for them, then it seems fine in my personal opinion. But honestly it all should go out the window if the ghost role is trying to abuse its role to just be a second life.


If this is deemed a rule problem, I don't think players should be the one to enforce it.

It's just as immersion breaking to insta kill someone because they're using a role as a second life as it is the person actually using it as a second life.
Last edited by Cobby on Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby Nilons » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:53 pm #326686

killing people because youre technically allowed to is a violation of rule 1 isnt it
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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby Lazengann » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:09 am #326695

Remove beach bums and vet ruins and solve most of the problem

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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby feem » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:13 am #326700

So long as flavor text is followed, I don't understand why ghost roles should be treated any differently than any other players, with the exception that, as PKP said, escalation rules are very relaxed. Obviously if ash walkers or lavaland syndicates break out of their area and start coming towards the base you can kill them. Obviously if a drone starts violating its laws you should ahelp and can feel justified in killing them. Obviously if a lavaland mouse or cow starts dragging your locker away you can kill them. Obviously swarmers and xenos are valid.

But when a non-simple, non-antagonistic, non-hostile player-controlled mob, such as a beach bum, or maybe even a veterinarian, or maybe in an extreme case even a plant person, is just minding its own business, I really don't think feel like murder by a non-antag should be acceptable.

If a ghost role has gone out of its way to do something objectionable, like spawned in and beelined a xeno nest, or come to the station to start greytiding, then please ahelp it, because that's an OOC abuse of ghost roles.

Edit:

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:It's just as immersion breaking to insta kill someone because they're using a role as a second life as it is the person actually using it as a second life


Strongly agree.

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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby Dax Dupont » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:16 am #326702

As long we can still kill ashlizards.

Beachbum and vet should probably be removed because they are really dumb and make no sense. It's not even funny as a meme.

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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby Armhulen » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:19 am #326704

AdAstraPerAspera wrote:As long we can still kill ashlizards.

Beachbum and vet should probably be removed because they are really dumb and make no sense. It's not even funny as a meme.

This but replace them with interesting things
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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby BeeSting12 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:31 am #326709

Massively relaxed escalation and validity on the hostile ones sounds fair to me. By massively relaxed I feel like it should be "this guy minorly annoyed me, I can kill him" sorta thing since drones and other ghost roles will use their privilege of having a second life to grief. Like good example of ghost role I saw earlier: Person from ancient station finds their way back, says they're from another NT station, acts confused/lost, etc. That's good, it's using the role properly and in a roleplaying manner. Bad is coming back from say the beach bum/vet role and validhunting or minor greytiding. Both of those roles don't have enough content on their own to make them that exciting without going back to the station, unlike ancient station (fight hivebots, RnD, reconstruction), free golems, (RnD/expansion), Syndicate base (chemistry, viro, fucking with comms).
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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby Hulkamania » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:30 pm #326947

I know this isn't quite the same, but are miners allowed to intentionally infect themselves in a xeno hive? I mean going for the gluttony syringe is fine, so does that mean intentionally getting yourself facehugged is okay too?

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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby Dax Dupont » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:43 pm #326951

Hulkamania wrote:I know this isn't quite the same, but are miners allowed to intentionally infect themselves in a xeno hive? I mean going for the gluttony syringe is fine, so does that mean intentionally getting yourself facehugged is okay too?

Self antagging is a no no and I think that might be covered under this.

There was a case where a ghost role got themselves infected on purpose and he got assblasted.
It's probably the same for non-antag miners0

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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby Lazengann » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:08 pm #326956

The gluttony syringe is self antagging

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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:23 pm #326962

Hulkamania wrote:I know this isn't quite the same, but are miners allowed to intentionally infect themselves in a xeno hive? I mean going for the gluttony syringe is fine, so does that mean intentionally getting yourself facehugged is okay too?

Not really the topic of the thread, but this is fine as you don't get the xeno role, a ghost does. If you want to play it safe take it to the station and get someone infected in xenobio for """research"""
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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby Cobby » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:23 am #326980

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Hulkamania wrote:I know this isn't quite the same, but are miners allowed to intentionally infect themselves in a xeno hive? I mean going for the gluttony syringe is fine, so does that mean intentionally getting yourself facehugged is okay too?

Not really the topic of the thread, but this is fine as you don't get the xeno role, a ghost does. If you want to play it safe take it to the station and get someone infected in xenobio for """research"""


Note this is MINER, not a ghost role.

If you ghost role to bee line alien you can expect anything between your body getting deleted to you getting noted/banned.
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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby Slignerd » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:04 am #329441

What about a gulagged prisoner finding a xeno nest in the gulag, getting infected and returning to the station?

Just asking, cause that almost happened once.
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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby WarbossLincoln » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:04 pm #329612

Maybe it's changed but I've always been told that any human controlled mob that isn't a crewman is always valid. I've brought that up when being murdered for no reason as a monkeyed geneticist but every admin I've run into has ruled that non crew are valid.
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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby Slignerd » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:35 pm #329614

Context matters. You've been told that because you were a player-controlled monkey. Which typically means either a changeling or an infectious conversion antag.

Doesn't mean you should use that ruling as an excuse murder all veterinarians on sight.
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Re: Map-Spawned Ghost Role Validity

Postby Cobby » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:33 pm #329628

Sligneris wrote:What about a gulagged prisoner finding a xeno nest in the gulag, getting infected and returning to the station?

Just asking, cause that almost happened once.


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