Metagrudging and antags

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kevinz000
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Metagrudging and antags

Postby kevinz000 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:02 pm #332923

If someone outright admits they're metagrudging someone by killing them as an antag, solo or team, does the rule 1 precedent of not metagrudging people apply or the rule that says antags do whatever they want outside of a short list of things which doesn't include this?



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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby Dax Dupont » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:08 pm #332925

It should probably be considered fine as long no icky ocky or ocky icky("HAH METAGRUDGED BITCH") happens until the round is over it should be fine.
If this happens a lot between two players, perhaps other incidents should be closely investigated especially if metagrudging happens. Perhaps a note should be placed if this happens more than twice with the same person, with care to not make it sound accusatory and not a warning for metagrudging.

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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby feem » Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:40 pm #332971

There have been statements from prior headmins that metagrudging isn't really metagrudging if it's carried out by an antag, because antags can do whatever they want. 'Metagrudging' as a thing-that's-against-the-rules is generally 'i am using my grudge against you to inappropriately escalate/find excuses to kill you,' if not outright killing without cause.

If you're a solo, rolled antag, per Rule 4, you can kill whomever you want.

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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby imblyings » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:40 pm #332994

There was an ahelp once where someone was particularly mad they were killed and believed, with some justification, that it was due to a metagrudge. Unfortunately the killer had rolled antagonist and it was ruled ic. Definitely not the first time doubt it will be the last.
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby bandit » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:59 pm #332998

I've always heard that it's fine. I could see changing it, possibly, but it would have to be in the broader umbrella of wanting antags to have IC justification for their killing (not murderboning etc, which for most objectives is counterproductive) since that's ultimately the rationale.
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby kevinz000 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:48 pm #333008

I mean I'd say this is almost impossible to prove otherwise because they could have just killed them on a whim/just because they want to.
The reason I ask now is because someone basically outright said "I dislike person so I kill them as (conversion) antag"

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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:09 pm #333014

I've seen warnings for this if it's within the same round (traitor is killed, comes back as antag ghost role and rushes his killer), but across many rounds I'm not sure how feasible it is to track. I have given at least one secret note in the past to somebody who was throwing an absolute fit in deadchat and screaming that they would metagrudge another player.
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby Nilons » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:33 pm #333020

I have seen players argue in ooc and then end the argument with "Well when I get antag i'm gonna kill you then". It shouldn't be policed in the way someone needs to justify ever single kill, but an antag running around the station looking for one non target person they have beef with and going massively out of their way to take them out of the round because of ooc shit should be considered meta grudging. Why add the incentive to rolling antag that you can go find and kill that guy who called you a mean name in ooc or said something you don't like. This is especially a problem for players who play static names(I think most players play it safe and assume its metagrudging until told otherwise) or even admins who play static names because people will think its hilarious to just kill them every time they get antag.
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby CPTANT » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:44 pm #333023

Regular antags: Killing anyone is fine.

Ghost antags: Rushing towards the person that killed you is extremely lame and should be punished.

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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:13 pm #333040

Just feels like a culture and/or general maturity problem that can't be cured with rules. People are going to be salty about dying. They're going to get salty that "that guy" killed them in the last round or last dozen rounds or "every" round. They're going to mentally check off that "finally, I can get revenge on that guy." Its really not the best but I honestly don't see a way to legislate that away.

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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby lzimann » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:32 pm #333046

CPTANT wrote:Regular antags: Killing anyone is fine.

Ghost antags: Rushing towards the person that killed you is extremely lame and should be punished.


It already is punishable, getting a ghost role means you lose all your ic memory, so rushing to your killing would be bannable.

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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby Oldman Robustin » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:03 pm #333112

If I'm reading the OP correctly then my belief is that it's 100% ok to metagrudge as a solo antag or against someone outside the team as a team antag.

It would be stupidly hard to prove and even if someone admitted it, why punish them for being honest about something that a lot of people do low key anyway?

Try to enforce a rule against metagrudging as an antag would be ridiculous, only if it was some over the top "So and So has killed and gibbed me at roundstart every single time they get traitor for the past several weeks" sort of thing would it make sense to intervene.
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby Cobby » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:47 pm #333134

Until you harp on antags getting free reign to kill I don't believe this is fair.

"You can kill everyone BUT the guy that really pisses you off all the time since he pisses you off all the time!" is not something I feel comfortable enforcing.
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby DemonFiren » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:19 am #333226

The problem isn't what you do, but why you do it.

If you're dumb enough to say you metagrudged someone, no matter the role, you should get slapped for it.
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby imblyings » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:37 am #333231

Kind of hard to punish someone gloating in deadchat to their victim about it being a metagrudge after they kill someone. It's impossible to enforce unless it's a ghost antagonist role or an admin has been shadowing them from roundstart
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby DemonFiren » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:41 am #333232

i was more thinking about gloating in ooc
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby Cobby » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:47 pm #333272

I'd gloat about killing demonfiren if I actually played and demon actually logged on
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:56 pm #333273

I would argue that explicit metagrudging should be warnable, possibly antag ban worthy if done excessively. You are not meant to bring OOC issues into the game, antag or otherwise.

Of course it is very unlikely for a admin to reasonable tell if a antag is metagrudging or if they are going out of their way to hunt someone down. Outside of a traitor Miner rushing back to the station and spending ten minutes hunting down a Botanist when the Miners objective was to steal the Head of Security's firearm, then this is a issue that is not going to be easily resolved commonly by admins.
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby Lazengann » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:22 pm #333276

I'd rather they get their aggression out as an antag rather than being constantly shitty in line-toeing and hard to act on ways.

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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby Togopal » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:14 pm #333346

Lazengann wrote:I'd rather they get their aggression out as an antag rather than being constantly shitty in line-toeing and hard to act on ways.


Most people do both
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby Slignerd » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:02 am #333375

I think allowing players to just get it out of their system during their antag rounds isn't that much of an issue, unless it is really taken to an excessive degree. Basically what Cobby said, really.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:"You can kill everyone BUT the guy that really pisses you off all the time since he pisses you off all the time!" is not something I feel comfortable enforcing.

They're a traitor, with a go-ahead to murder fellow crew. If they want to kill someone as part of their workplace grudge, might as well let them.
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby DemonFiren » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:28 am #333391

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:I'd gloat about killing demonfiren if I actually played and demon actually logged on

brb randomnaming human, waiting until i get antag and killing you
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:39 am #333431

DemonFiren wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:I'd gloat about killing demonfiren if I actually played and demon actually logged on

brb randomnaming human, waiting until i get antag and killing you

but now cobby wins by default by depriving you of lizard
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby DemonFiren » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:57 pm #333471

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:I'd gloat about killing demonfiren if I actually played and demon actually logged on

brb randomnaming human, waiting until i get antag and killing you

but now cobby wins by default by depriving you of lizard

you can't play lizard if you don't play at all
so there's no real change
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Re: Metagrudging and antags

Postby imblyings » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:35 pm #333486

Well someone gloating in ooc is a bit different but the only recent cases I remember involve pregame salt or deadchat salt.
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