/tg/Station 13

If someone outright admits they're metagrudging someone by killing them as an antag, solo or team, does the rule 1 precedent of not metagrudging people apply or the rule that says antags do whatever they want outside of a short list of things which doesn't include this?

It should probably be considered fine as long no icky ocky or ocky icky("HAH METAGRUDGED BITCH") happens until the round is over it should be fine.
If this happens a lot between two players, perhaps other incidents should be closely investigated especially if metagrudging happens. Perhaps a note should be placed if this happens more than twice with the same person, with care to not make it sound accusatory and not a warning for metagrudging.

There have been statements from prior headmins that metagrudging isn't really metagrudging if it's carried out by an antag, because antags can do whatever they want. 'Metagrudging' as a thing-that's-against-the-rules is generally 'i am using my grudge against you to inappropriately escalate/find excuses to kill you,' if not outright killing without cause.

If you're a solo, rolled antag, per Rule 4, you can kill whomever you want.

There was an ahelp once where someone was particularly mad they were killed and believed, with some justification, that it was due to a metagrudge. Unfortunately the killer had rolled antagonist and it was ruled ic. Definitely not the first time doubt it will be the last.

I've always heard that it's fine. I could see changing it, possibly, but it would have to be in the broader umbrella of wanting antags to have IC justification for their killing (not murderboning etc, which for most objectives is counterproductive) since that's ultimately the rationale.

I mean I'd say this is almost impossible to prove otherwise because they could have just killed them on a whim/just because they want to.
The reason I ask now is because someone basically outright said "I dislike person so I kill them as (conversion) antag"

I've seen warnings for this if it's within the same round (traitor is killed, comes back as antag ghost role and rushes his killer), but across many rounds I'm not sure how feasible it is to track. I have given at least one secret note in the past to somebody who was throwing an absolute fit in deadchat and screaming that they would metagrudge another player.

I have seen players argue in ooc and then end the argument with "Well when I get antag i'm gonna kill you then". It shouldn't be policed in the way someone needs to justify ever single kill, but an antag running around the station looking for one non target person they have beef with and going massively out of their way to take them out of the round because of ooc shit should be considered meta grudging. Why add the incentive to rolling antag that you can go find and kill that guy who called you a mean name in ooc or said something you don't like. This is especially a problem for players who play static names(I think most players play it safe and assume its metagrudging until told otherwise) or even admins who play static names because people will think its hilarious to just kill them every time they get antag.

Regular antags: Killing anyone is fine.

Ghost antags: Rushing towards the person that killed you is extremely lame and should be punished.

Just feels like a culture and/or general maturity problem that can't be cured with rules. People are going to be salty about dying. They're going to get salty that "that guy" killed them in the last round or last dozen rounds or "every" round. They're going to mentally check off that "finally, I can get revenge on that guy." Its really not the best but I honestly don't see a way to legislate that away.

CPTANT wrote:Regular antags: Killing anyone is fine.

Ghost antags: Rushing towards the person that killed you is extremely lame and should be punished.

It already is punishable, getting a ghost role means you lose all your ic memory, so rushing to your killing would be bannable.

If I'm reading the OP correctly then my belief is that it's 100% ok to metagrudge as a solo antag or against someone outside the team as a team antag.

It would be stupidly hard to prove and even if someone admitted it, why punish them for being honest about something that a lot of people do low key anyway?

Try to enforce a rule against metagrudging as an antag would be ridiculous, only if it was some over the top "So and So has killed and gibbed me at roundstart every single time they get traitor for the past several weeks" sort of thing would it make sense to intervene.

Until you harp on antags getting free reign to kill I don't believe this is fair.

"You can kill everyone BUT the guy that really pisses you off all the time since he pisses you off all the time!" is not something I feel comfortable enforcing.

The problem isn't what you do, but why you do it.

If you're dumb enough to say you metagrudged someone, no matter the role, you should get slapped for it.

Kind of hard to punish someone gloating in deadchat to their victim about it being a metagrudge after they kill someone. It's impossible to enforce unless it's a ghost antagonist role or an admin has been shadowing them from roundstart

i was more thinking about gloating in ooc

I'd gloat about killing demonfiren if I actually played and demon actually logged on

I would argue that explicit metagrudging should be warnable, possibly antag ban worthy if done excessively. You are not meant to bring OOC issues into the game, antag or otherwise.

Of course it is very unlikely for a admin to reasonable tell if a antag is metagrudging or if they are going out of their way to hunt someone down. Outside of a traitor Miner rushing back to the station and spending ten minutes hunting down a Botanist when the Miners objective was to steal the Head of Security's firearm, then this is a issue that is not going to be easily resolved commonly by admins.

I'd rather they get their aggression out as an antag rather than being constantly shitty in line-toeing and hard to act on ways.

Lazengann wrote:I'd rather they get their aggression out as an antag rather than being constantly shitty in line-toeing and hard to act on ways.

Most people do both

I think allowing players to just get it out of their system during their antag rounds isn't that much of an issue, unless it is really taken to an excessive degree. Basically what Cobby said, really.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:"You can kill everyone BUT the guy that really pisses you off all the time since he pisses you off all the time!" is not something I feel comfortable enforcing.

They're a traitor, with a go-ahead to murder fellow crew. If they want to kill someone as part of their workplace grudge, might as well let them.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:I'd gloat about killing demonfiren if I actually played and demon actually logged on

brb randomnaming human, waiting until i get antag and killing you

DemonFiren wrote:

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:I'd gloat about killing demonfiren if I actually played and demon actually logged on

brb randomnaming human, waiting until i get antag and killing you

but now cobby wins by default by depriving you of lizard

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:

DemonFiren wrote:

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:I'd gloat about killing demonfiren if I actually played and demon actually logged on

brb randomnaming human, waiting until i get antag and killing you

but now cobby wins by default by depriving you of lizard

you can't play lizard if you don't play at all
so there's no real change

Well someone gloating in ooc is a bit different but the only recent cases I remember involve pregame salt or deadchat salt.