The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby imblyings » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:43 pm #26075

You simply don't need a set universe to prevent metagaming specifically


my god subtle

or performing actions that would clearly be completely pointless/insane for a real human being when it comes to even antagonist actions.


real human beings? by the standards of the 21st century in a relatively normal Western society?

real human beings? by the standards of a ramshackle space station populated by psychopaths, where cloning may have half extinguished the human fear of death, where normal people constantly fight off aliens, cultists and murderers? where blood coating the floor simply makes one wish for a janitor? where people will happily bludgeon their coworker to death when their coworker lets slip that they have an emag? where shitty HR makes sure a clown and mime get sent to a space station but not an engineer? where people will happily escalate minor conflicts into something involving near-death injuries? where dying horribly, despite being horrible, is not that much of a bother in the long-term because it's 'unofficial' canon that everyone has centcom backups? where human characters include humans that step into robotics to have their brain cut out first thing in the shift?

I think you mean the former. And if you do mean the former, you've already contributed to some sort of official canon, where most station crew are expected to be characters that fit in with a 21st century Western society.

You're very clearly missing my point if you think I wouldn't like this to apply to both antagonists and nonantagonists.


Then start suggesting guidelines as to how characters are supposed to act. Define what makes a reasonable character. The term canon/backstory may be misleading. We need a context, an officially sanctioned context where characters and character actions within that context are allowed. The beauty of establishing a context is that when you do so, you can use that context for practically everything. You can use that context to determine what is and isn't OOC knowledge. You can use that context to establish what a reasonable character is. You can use that context to establish what a reasonable action is.

I am trying

trying very hard

to point out a very consistent and easy way in which to fix this issue of 'roleplay' which has reared it's fucking ugly thread every year.

It may be rather telling that we have had this exact same thread, every year without anything constructive being done, because we simply do not have any sort of official context for what goes on IC.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby imblyings » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:53 pm #26079

Crew members are expected to follow the chain of command unless the order is blatantly outrageous or they are clearly being an insane comdom. If your departmental head orders you to do something, you do it. If you don't do it, you get warned and/or demoted. This is critical to RP, and if you don't have it, you basically don't have RP at all. It also means that antags with authority can actually be frightening in a way that is not simply the gamist "they have access and more toys."


no

Chain of command adherence from players who are able to inspire that sort of departmental loyalty is fine, great even. Having some sort of server-enforced obligation for players to listen to other players, possibly at the expense of their own fun, is fucking horrible. Case in point, law 2, one of the biggest issues that bounce around. Players don't play SS13 to get told what to do, players play SS13 to derive some sort of enjoyment from it. Security is an exception because the very nature of their work reflects real world policing/military needs for teamwork.

The next part isn't really addressed to you but it is relevant.

There could be official context where NT does in fact hire characters who will follow chain of command most of the time, where official context does state that most station crew treat their job and superiors as someone from the 21st century might, where official context does state that most superiors have been hired by NT not because of their skill in being dicks but because they strive to be excellent leaders in their departments.

Just one example of how an official context allows for consistent rulings.

There should be more encouragement for crew to work together during a round. If this takes crew objectives, so be it; at least that gets people into the habit of actually interacting.


There's an odd difference between crew working together and crew 'roleplaying'. But I'd put money on players working together to achieve a goal to be something most players can enjoy so sure why not. I don't remember exactly but either the other /tg/ server or the /vg/ server currently have end-round stats for non-antags to rate crew performance.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Subtle » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:15 pm #26088

It's much more simple than you're trying really hard to make it out to be.

Sure altering the overarching story and having some common framework to build character interaction off of in a consistent way would be nice, but that's too much change for a first step. You're asking people to rework their whole world and style of play at once in conforming to a universe we'd have to get approved by majority anyway. Literally all I'm asking in regards to logical "21st century reasoning" (something which I hope isn't extinct with all of you, if with your characters) is that your actions have more logic behind them than "I am an antagonist in a video game about spess-people, that's why everyone is dying" or "we've confirmed that X is an Y for some petty reason so we got our valid on."

We don't need to lose the goofiness and chaos that comes with being the middle-ground.
I don't want to enforce your characters acting or feeling a specific way about every little thing and I can't seem to stress that enough.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby imblyings » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:41 pm #26117

>"we've confirmed that X is an Y for some petty reason so we got our valid on."

I am a fragile man exposed and desensitized to gruesome violence and am ultimately responsible for my own safety onboard this flimsy excuse of a space station stuck in the middle of no where crewed by incompetent psychopaths like myself with a flimsier excuse of a 'security' staff to protect us. I have been traumatized and my coping mechanism is to lash out violently at anyone who reminds me of Dante Smith, which is why I will without hesitation kill X.

>"I am an antagonist in a video game about spess-people, that's why everyone is dying"

I have spent countless hours pondering whether it was morally wrong or not to kill off the entire crew of this space station. All of us get cloned. I remember strangling Jim to death the other day and today he waves at me and asks me if I want a drink. I don't think it's wrong for me to kill everyone if nothing matters in the long run. I guess I'll go with the dual esword today, I just need to finish these six bombs and also stop by EVA.

What logic are you referring to. What I've posted is perfectly fine logic to justify silently killing antags or murderbone as an antag. Without context to base character and actions in, it will ultimately be up to individual player choices and admin and ban precedent rulings to determine what is okay or not. This is the current state that we are in. Incidentally, the current state that we are in allows for the full justification of nearly all powergaming from both sides and complete knowledge of antags.

It's much more simple than you're trying really hard to make it out to be.


It's the other way around. You, along with most people complaining about 'muh roleplay' or 'power/meta/valid', make the mistake of making a thread around each year, complaining about x, wish that more y would happen and don't do a single thing to actually make it happen. What plenty of people have complained about will only be fixed through much change and if admins and players are unwilling to commit to the effort needed to change, nothing will change. Again, I point at literally every other thread which has complained about the exact same thing. They have said literally nothing different to what you have said and the striking similarity is that literally nothing happened.

We don't need to lose the goofiness and chaos that comes with being the middle-ground. I don't want to enforce your characters acting or feeling a specific way about every little thing and I can't seem to stress that enough.


No where have I once suggested to remove the goofiness or chaos.

I suggested a context, in which acceptable characters and actions could come from. I did not suggest any sort of context apart from suggesting interpretations of posts when they use ambiguous terms like 'roleplay'.

Context can be 'All characters at the very least, have a slight similarity to 21st century human being reasoning and thought, instinct of self-preservation, sanctity of human life and dignity, regardless of antag status or not. Only certain station crew are briefed upon threats against the station and all station crew are selectively mindwiped to remove memories of incidents upon arrival at Centcom.'

There done. There is no threat to 'goofiness' or 'chaos' here. It addresses OOC/antag knowledge. It addresses valid-hunting. It is a basic context in which future actions can be tested against, to determine whether they are acceptable or not. It gives players freedom to choose how to play their characters while obliging them to basic, consistent standards of behaviour.

But hey you said it yourself in the OP.

This thread will not actually do anything other than cause a huge pile of rants. You, maybe the rest of adminbus, maybe the rest of the community, just won't be bothered enough to actually do something about this problem and this same exact thread will pop up again and the exact same things will be said again and the exact same lack of effort to change things will show up again.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby bandit » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:53 pm #26121

imblyings wrote:>"we've confirmed that X is an Y for some petty reason so we got our valid on."

I am a fragile man exposed and desensitized to gruesome violence and am ultimately responsible for my own safety onboard this flimsy excuse of a space station stuck in the middle of no where crewed by incompetent psychopaths like myself with a flimsier excuse of a 'security' staff to protect us. I have been traumatized and my coping mechanism is to lash out violently at anyone who reminds me of Dante Smith, which is why I will without hesitation kill X.

>"I am an antagonist in a video game about spess-people, that's why everyone is dying"

I have spent countless hours pondering whether it was morally wrong or not to kill off the entire crew of this space station. All of us get cloned. I remember strangling Jim to death the other day and today he waves at me and asks me if I want a drink. I don't think it's wrong for me to kill everyone if nothing matters in the long run. I guess I'll go with the dual esword today, I just need to finish these six bombs and also stop by EVA.


the rules wrote:Randomly murdering people is generally considered to be ruining someone’s fun and poor form in roleplay. If you don’t have a solid IC reason for murder, you may be removed. Trying to justify it with ‘My character is so random/insane’ is not tolerated.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby imblyings » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:58 pm #26122

that would be a valid reply to my post but my post was a reply to Subtles, not a statement in itself

the first one happens to relate to validhunting antags

the second one relates to antags murderboning

both of which are currently allowed
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Cipher3 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:59 pm #26173

imblyings wrote:I have spent countless hours pondering whether it was morally wrong or not to kill off the entire crew of this space station. All of us get cloned. I remember strangling Jim to death the other day and today he waves at me and asks me if I want a drink. I don't think it's wrong for me to kill everyone if nothing matters in the long run. I guess I'll go with the dual esword today, I just need to finish these six bombs and also stop by EVA.

This specific example is wrong enough to matter, so:
1. If you strangled a crewmember to death and he saw you again, he'd get you perma'd. If it was a separate round, then you remember that memories of antags/being an antag don't cross rounds.
2. Lots of antag killers prevent people from being cloned, which includes killing the only people which can get people cloned. Murder clearly matters in this society seeing as, as previously mentioned, it gets you perma'd. Also, randomly killing someone is awful anyways.


And Bandit's reply to your post, Imblyings is still very much relevant. It discourages wanton murdering, which is one of the things that the thread is dedicated to us tightening our belt on.

imblyings wrote:What plenty of people have complained about will only be fixed through much change and if admins and players are unwilling to commit to the effort needed to change, nothing will change.


Let's hop to it. A fair number of people in this thread want to do something, after all. The lack of things getting done is a frustration I have myself.

A side note on your backstory ranting: While Bay defines the universe in relation to Nanotrasen and a lot of how things work, individual backstories (the part needed for roleplaying between characters casually as opposed to with Centcomm reports) are pretty much free-reign, with the exception of alien cultures, which are somewhat more defined.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:27 pm #26176

imblyings wrote:Chain of command adherence from players who are able to inspire that sort of departmental loyalty is fine, great even. Having some sort of server-enforced obligation for players to listen to other players, possibly at the expense of their own fun, is fucking horrible. Case in point, law 2, one of the biggest issues that bounce around. Players don't play SS13 to get told what to do, players play SS13 to derive some sort of enjoyment from it. Security is an exception because the very nature of their work reflects real world policing/military needs for teamwork.

If I go to work tomorrow and I tell my boss to fuck himself when he tells me to do something, your logic would dictate that I wouldn't get fired.

This doesn't require a lot of brainwork here. Everyone on the station. EVERYONE on the station, is bound by their jobs to follow instructions from their superiors. Heads of staff have every right and power to remove and demote you for being a shit and you have no place to complain OOC'ly because they're "ruining your fun" because you chose to be a shit IC.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby bandit » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:52 am #26186

Cipher3 wrote:And Bandit's reply to your post, Imblyings is still very much relevant. It discourages wanton murdering, which is one of the things that the thread is dedicated to us tightening our belt on.


That's not really what I was getting at. Trying to justify shit RP with "well what if my character is JUST THAT INSANE GUYZE? Murderboning is a trigger and you are triggering me! Fuck your 2014 morality!!!!1one!!" is not in the spirit of RP so much as the spirit of covering your ass and is terrible enough that the rules, which have very few restrictions on what you can and cannot RP, specifically call it out.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:43 am #26188

The thing I see is that the current accepted lore actually supports the idea of people being insane, amoral, idiots with nothing to lose and they have effective immortality.

Let's not forget that:
- Human culture is based around a Chinese dominate space program.
- Human history is just as grimdark as Wh40k.
- Everyone is effectively immortal, there is no real negative to death even if your gibbed.
- Human rights is effectively non-exsistant, there is no government body in exsistance.

I can go on, but the fact is with the context of our ss13 backstory, being insane and killing people seems the norm, as there is no consequence to death.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:05 am #26195

imblyings wrote:Chain of command adherence from players who are able to inspire that sort of departmental loyalty is fine, great even. Having some sort of server-enforced obligation for players to listen to other players, possibly at the expense of their own fun, is fucking horrible. Case in point, law 2, one of the biggest issues that bounce around. Players don't play SS13 to get told what to do, players play SS13 to derive some sort of enjoyment from it. Security is an exception because the very nature of their work reflects real world policing/military needs for teamwork.

Um. Why is security an exception again? You're basically saying that security players cannot have fun.

Chain of command shouldn't be enforced OOC, rather more heads should enforce it IC.
cedarbridge wrote:If I go to work tomorrow and I tell my boss to fuck himself when he tells me to do something, your logic would dictate that I wouldn't get fired.

Well, yeah. You would get fired. By your boss.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby imblyings » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:17 am #26196

Cipher3 wrote:This specific example is wrong enough to matter


It's not. Memories of people being antags are allowed to cross over, otherwise people like Dobbs and Dante or any famous bomb maker wouldn't be treated the way they are. We just aren't allowed to use those memories in a specific way. The rules discourage non-antags from killing someone without due cause, not 'wanton murdering' in general. Antags are still free to wantonly murder regardless of the rules.

Murder may matter but we currently have this double standard where people are sometimes very, very careless with their life.

is still very much relevant.


It isn't. My post was in reply to Subtles request for some sort of reasoning to validhunting antags or antags murderboning. It was to show that without any sort of official context, it would be very easy to come up with some sort of reasoning to do both while still being acceptable under the current rules. If you don't realize yet, I am trying to show that the current rules are not sufficient enough to stop whatever.

A side note on your backstory ranting:


Great, maybe we can actually do something about declaring what is acceptable and what isn't. Of course no one is going to touch individual backstories, unless said backstories are used to justify murdering anyone and the like.

Again, I've put forward an actual solution to this problem and yes it involves getting an official context. If someone else has some magical way of fixing these problems consistently and easily, then they really need to post it otherwise like I said, this thread is useless.

If I go to work tomorrow and I tell my boss to fuck himself when he tells me to do something, your logic would dictate that I wouldn't get fired.

This doesn't require a lot of brainwork here. Everyone on the station. EVERYONE on the station, is bound by their jobs to follow instructions from their superiors. Heads of staff have every right and power to remove and demote you for being a shit and you have no place to complain OOC'ly because they're "ruining your fun" because you chose to be a shit IC.


You work on the assumption that the players playing heads of staff are infallible. You work on the assumption that a player doing something they find fun while not severely detracting from the fun of someone else is considered being a shit. You work on the assumption that real world logic can consistently be applied to SS13 when it only does in a few cases.

There is no benefit to putting in policy which is dependent on the quality of the player. Policy is there to be a standard which player quality needs to meet or exceed. Unless you put in clearly defined higher standards for head of staff players to adhere to, you cannot enforce chain of command fairly.

edit

There is nothing wrong with using chain of command to remove a disruptive player.

However, ignoring the chain of command is not a wrong action in itself. It depends on the circumstances. It could be an engineer with a RIG suit refusing to go fix a breach, which would be wrong or it could be a scientist refusing to stop on a harmless project, which would not be wrong.
Last edited by imblyings on Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby imblyings » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:28 am #26197

Um. Why is security an exception again? You're basically saying that security players cannot have fun.


I specifically said teamwork instead of enforcing the chain of command. Not entirely the same thing but really close.

I'm not sure why but security players are unusually responsive to a player issuing orders with a sense of purpose over the sec radio, whether it's from a HoS, warden or even a fellow officer. Security also seems to operate better when they have a distinct direction in mind and a sort of camaraderie going on.

Teamwork and someone giving that teamwork a goal usually lead to far better survival rates for security which is why I say sec is an exception. I'd even go so far as to say that sec isn't fun unless there is teamwork in sec.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:40 am #26198

imblyings wrote:
Um. Why is security an exception again? You're basically saying that security players cannot have fun.


I specifically said teamwork instead of enforcing the chain of command. Not entirely the same thing but really close.

I'm not sure why but security players are unusually responsive to a player issuing orders with a sense of purpose over the sec radio, whether it's from a HoS, warden or even a fellow officer. Security also seems to operate better when they have a distinct direction in mind and a sort of camaraderie going on.

Teamwork and someone giving that teamwork a goal usually lead to far better survival rates for security which is why I say sec is an exception. I'd even go so far as to say that sec isn't fun unless there is teamwork in sec.

So? People respond when I tell them to make shit for R&D or when telescience delivers bananium or when chemistry makes cryo mix and other meds or when they set up singularity and solars or when they drag crates around, etc.

I don't believe there is anything special about security in this sense. It doesn't happen more often or better or anything like that at all.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Stickymayhem » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:32 am #26213

I think this can already be enforced IC without any changes. As a head, particularly HoS, I demonstrate a willingness to demote people if they are clearly fucking around or ignoring the channel, and this results in a lot more cooperation as a result. For most people you just need to break past the idea that "if someone else is going to be shit it'll ruin everything anyway so I shouldn't bother"
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby LdShade » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:20 pm #26225

Can I just leave this here:
We don't need to up the level of roleplay.
We need to up the amount of players who DO roleplay.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby leibniz » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:47 pm #26239

Normally my approach is that no official backstory allows us to roleplay in the way we want (and it isnt easy to immerse ourselves in stuff that we dont find fitting), but I suppose giving up that freedom to increase the general standard of roleplay might be worth it.

In another topic I proposed that we could have some events, a kind of history, that do not touch the key subjects of the SS13 lore, so they dont really conflict with anyone's ideas about the SS13 lore.
These would unrelated little stories, like the "Assault on Moon 18" or "The Rebellion of Colony 6", people could read these stories and then decide if their characters were a part of it, and if it was what part it played. Then during gameplay, the characters could bring up these events and talk about them, etc. I think this could add to the roleplay on the server.

So maybe some stories or a complete backstory could help us, I am not sure what the consensus is or if it is possible to have a consensus.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:03 pm #26242

That would be a good first step in introducing a element of lore to the game. Nothing major but small snippets of information from elsewhere.

This can help us shape any real backstory, and maybe move away from grimdark.

I still think that the best way to go about this is to write up a back story, at the very least we should just examine the reason why NT is in this solar system.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby imblyings » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:18 pm #26245

I don't want to step on anyones fun or enthusiasm here but

I was wrong to constantly use the term backstory/canon in my earlier posts because it's a bit misleading and I fear it'll mislead players into thinking fluff is somehow central to whatever it is that this thread wants. I need to clarify in saying that what the server needs is a context, a baseline of what is acceptable in terms of character reasoning and knowledge, e.g. everyone acts similar to a 21st century person.

Fluff will help and fluff is fun to create but it's not fluff which is dearly needed at the moment, it's that baseline context that the server needs to create further, consistent, judgements.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Aurx » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:54 pm #26262

There's a few glaring problems with "Have heads manage the chain of command IC":
  • Power over another in SS13 comes by having better weaponry, or striking from ambush. Most heads of staff are NOT armed in any special way, and expecting them to hide in a closet with a weapon to demote a subordinate seems REALLY stupid. Additionally, an insubordinate crew member will likely have prepared themselves for a fight in the first place.
  • People who get demoted WILL seek revenge for it, and often will devote their entire round to revenge.
  • There's no good way to leave notes about someone such that they'll actually be displayed should the person march over to the HoP and request a transfer back to their old department. I've had it happen that me (chief engineeer) and the captain demoted an engineer and annotated their security records, and not even ten minutes later they had full engineering access and were spacing me.
  • Security is often reluctant to help demote someone, either because they're more interested in high-profile crime or because they're wary of getting BWOINKed over an invalid demotion.
  • People adminhelp getting demoted, and then the admin has to BWOINK the head of staff to get their side of the story. People are afraid of getting BWOINKed.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby tolstovskiy » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:10 pm #26271

Aurx wrote:There's no good way to leave notes about someone such that they'll actually be displayed should the person march over to the HoP and request a transfer back to their old department. I've had it happen that me (chief engineeer) and the captain demoted an engineer and annotated their security records, and not even ten minutes later they had full engineering access and were spacing me.

That's one of the reasons why i use Trasnfer request/Access request forms as hop. It's works 100 times better that just asking over command channel(Head actually meets the guy before transfer instead of just allowing some random guy to walk in his department). That guy wound never be in your department again with me as hop in that round given the fact that he would have to get not just stamp on form but legit signature from you. Oh right another RP thing I do that bothers everyone. NOBODY likes my forms and none of the heads can be bothered to actually sign them (just write [sign] where " SIGN HERE" is written you lazy ass, don't tell me you have other things to do, CMO). And these useless assistants can't be bothered to meet their future head.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby bandit » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:25 pm #26281

Stickymayhem wrote:I think this can already be enforced IC without any changes. As a head, particularly HoS, I demonstrate a willingness to demote people if they are clearly fucking around or ignoring the channel, and this results in a lot more cooperation as a result. For most people you just need to break past the idea that "if someone else is going to be shit it'll ruin everything anyway so I shouldn't bother"


That's nice. My experience is that if you play a head of staff and you demote someone, even if it is for totally legitimate reasons, they will spend the rest of the round essentially graytiding you -- stunprod, cuffs, everything up to the line of actually being bannable OOC but definitely past the point of ruining rounds -- and your best-case scenario is that they don't metagrudge you in future rounds because of it.

EDIT: Oh look Aurx said everything I just said.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Alex Crimson » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:46 pm #26305

Just demote them and let the rest of the command staff know. If they persist in griefing you, tell the HoS. Have them arrested for assault. If they stun+cuff you, adminhelp it. I doubt "they demoted me" is a valid reason for restraining someone, or at the very least the admins will be aware of the situation should the guy decide to kill you.

and for people not wanting serious RP you sure are spending a lot of time discussing backstory that most will not care about. Not turning into Bay my ass.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Ikarrus » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:54 pm #26308

>Invalid demotions

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Demotions are IC and should not be made an admin issue. But if you demote someone and they try to space/grief the shit out of you for it, adminhelp and we'll look into it.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby bandit » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:56 pm #26316

Ikarrus wrote:Demotions are IC and should not be made an admin issue. But if you demote someone and they try to space/grief the shit out of you for it, adminhelp and we'll look into it.


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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Aurx » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:09 am #26320

Ikarrus wrote:>Invalid demotions

Demotions are IC and should not be made an admin issue. But if you demote someone and they try to space/grief the shit out of you for it, adminhelp and we'll look into it.

So a head demoting some random schmuck FNR is acceptable? I sure wouldn't want to removed from my chosen role just because some other player is PMSing. Getting demoted can easily ruin a round if you want to actually do your job.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:16 am #26337

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
imblyings wrote:
Um. Why is security an exception again? You're basically saying that security players cannot have fun.


I specifically said teamwork instead of enforcing the chain of command. Not entirely the same thing but really close.

I'm not sure why but security players are unusually responsive to a player issuing orders with a sense of purpose over the sec radio, whether it's from a HoS, warden or even a fellow officer. Security also seems to operate better when they have a distinct direction in mind and a sort of camaraderie going on.

Teamwork and someone giving that teamwork a goal usually lead to far better survival rates for security which is why I say sec is an exception. I'd even go so far as to say that sec isn't fun unless there is teamwork in sec.

So? People respond when I tell them to make shit for R&D or when telescience delivers bananium or when chemistry makes cryo mix and other meds or when they set up singularity and solars or when they drag crates around, etc.

I don't believe there is anything special about security in this sense. It doesn't happen more often or better or anything like that at all.

Any head of staff has full ability and full authority within their department. If a guy is chucklefucking around or ignoring instructions from their designated head of staff, they can and probably should be demoted. The head isn't "ruining your fun" just because you felt like ignoring them or causing some other issue the head of staff determined was detrimental to the department. Sec is not the only case. I've threatened the science staff at round start on more than one occasion for not responding to roll-calls. Gotta know who is responsible for what when I get mixed up in RnD/Telesci and don't really have time to babysit each department at the same time, so its good to know who's responsible. If they can't be bothered to respond on the radio when I call, they're a possible safety hazard. Threatening to demote people suddenly gets them to jump to attention and start telling you where they're working.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Ikarrus » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:37 pm #26393

Heads derive their authority from their ability to demote people. The reason why I added department self-management was to make this process easier. If we start clamping down what should be an IC issue, we're going to find ourselves in a place where nobody listens to anyone because people are scared that demotions are too hard or that they "ruin someone's precious fun".

I encourage all heads to exercise this privilege more often, especially when they start complaining to me about one of their subordinates.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby IcePacks » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:07 am #26448

Cheridan wrote:It's just pretty messed up when Bryce Pax and J.R. Bob Dobbs are among my favorite roleplayers, because they're people who just don't care about "winning". They fool around and have fun, and use their antag roles as an opportunity to make things ACTUALLY interesting.

it's funny because my noslip+esword rampages last five seconds and i still kill everyone like everyone else

it's offensive because the payoff for mixing it up and killing everyone with a robot army is being grouped with takato
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby MrStonedOne » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:16 pm #26498

Get rid of valids.

Talking mimes are not valid.

WGW readers are not valid.

x y z etc are not valid.

No more thinking of valid as a binary switch.

Someone is reading WGW on the radio? Well, how would a NORMAL person handle that conflict? You would walk up to the bastard and call him a creep and tell them to knock it the fuck off and keep that shit off the radio. and when they smile at you while reading more, you might shout at them that you're not fucking around, and when they continue, you might shove them to the ground and take the radio out of frustration.


When you de-bayify that, you arrive at the very least being expected to knock them down and take their radio as a way of resolving the conflict.

XYZ is valid encourages flat views on how to handle situations, and discourages roleplay by removing it from the equation.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby looping » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:25 pm #26507

MrStonedOne wrote:Someone is reading WGW on the radio? Well, how would a NORMAL person handle that conflict? You would walk up to the bastard and call him a creep and tell them to knock it the fuck off and keep that shit off the radio. and when they smile at you while reading more, you might shout at them that you're not fucking around, and when they continue, you might shove them to the ground and take the radio out of frustration.


The difference here is that the person in-game tends to be reading off the porn at lightspeed, while hiding in a corner and jerking off.
appeal me now ok think about it admin u could have a friend a friend who comes down to ur house and listens to ur words but doesnt respond to them because he knows that words are for the weak and physical violence is the superior form of communication but u wont accept this ur scared ur stuck in the prefix of pretification yea thats right ur sitting there stuck to the floor from ur goopy liquid glue sweat unable tro answer the door guess whos there its my friend spooner who is requesting appeal me
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Steelpoint » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:40 pm #26510

To an extent, valids are a cross between allowing players to defend themselves against hostile attackers, and a sloppy way of getting an annoying player out of the way instead of having any form of due process.

Honestly the removal of a 'valid' state would be a good first step. Seeing people crowd around the library trying to kill the librarian when he starts spouting off that story gets old and predictable.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby MisterPerson » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:56 pm #26554

I would agree to that, except instead of making them 'valid' it should be an OOC punishment. You know, a short ban. 15 minutes or so. Because seriously WGW isn't funny, stop doing it.

But yes in general removing 'valid' from player vocabulary is a good idea.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Scott » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:21 pm #26559

What if antags do it?

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Pandarsenic » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:12 pm #26562

MisterPerson wrote:I would agree to that, except instead of making them 'valid' it should be an OOC punishment. You know, a short ban. 15 minutes or so. Because seriously WGW isn't funny, stop doing it.

But yes in general removing 'valid' from player vocabulary is a good idea.


Thisthisthis

And my standard policy for an antag reading WGW is kill him, warn him, then revive him if he takes the warning well.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Alex Crimson » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:10 am #26572

I kinda agree with the valid thing. It annoying when an antag just get mobbed and murdered by random station personnel. Id prefer it if the mindset of killing a Traitor when he is discovered was discouraged or flat-out not allowed. Sec should be the ones dealing with these guys. At most, people should only be restraining antags, not beating them to death.

The WGW valid thing shouldve been removed a long time ago. Its a very shitty thing to do.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby callanrockslol » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:25 am #26588

Only if antags lose all of their free reign to do antthing they want too, otherwise they shouldnt get any IC protecrions
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Incomptinence » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:32 am #26589

Isn't reading woody got wood bannable now?

Anyway the wgw/spammer valid should always remain, one spammer sneaking between admins shouldn't totally ruin a round for people who don't have comms access. It is like letting one person transform into a peirot's throat equivalent and disrupt all communications.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Alex Crimson » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:40 am #26591

I see not reason to limit antags in what they can do IC. Random murderboning is silly, but they are bad guys, so i see no harm in it.

Im not saying antags should not be killable at all. But i just think the killing should be done by Sec rather than some random Assistant who stole a Bone Saw, or Chemist who happened to have some Polyacid spray and saw a murder in the hallway.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:26 am #26602

MisterPerson wrote:I would agree to that, except instead of making them 'valid' it should be an OOC punishment. You know, a short ban. 15 minutes or so. Because seriously WGW isn't funny, stop doing it.

But yes in general removing 'valid' from player vocabulary is a good idea.

Seriously. Why should players punish other players, we have admins for that.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby callanrockslol » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:05 am #26611

Alex Crimson wrote:I see not reason to limit antags in what they can do IC. Random murderboning is silly, but they are bad guys, so i see no harm in it.

Im not saying antags should not be killable at all. But i just think the killing should be done by Sec rather than some random Assistant who stole a Bone Saw, or Chemist who happened to have some Polyacid spray and saw a murder in the hallway.


You're asking people to just watch a hell bent killer walk away and tell sec that probably wont ever catch them. This isn't real life where cops are usually competent and able to outdo criminals, this is the wild west in space.

If the bad guys can do whatever they want then the "good guys" (> nanotrasen are the good guys) should be able to do whatever is in there power to stop them should shit hit the fan.

If it was just a murder for a valid reason most people wouldn't bat an eyelash, if it involved an esword or revolver or the like then they would get their head bashed in and Space Justice doled out.
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Spoiler:
Urist Boatmurdered [Security] asks, "Why does Zol have a captain-level ID?"
Zol Interbottom [Security] says, "because"

Sergie Borris lives on in our hearts

Zaros (No id) [145.9] says, "WITH MY SUPER WIZARD POWERS I CAN TELL CALLAN IS MAD."

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OOC: Armhulenn: AND THEN
OOC: Armhulenn: GAVE ME MELTING MELONS
OOC: Armhulenn: GOD FUCKING BLESS YOU
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all we're saying is that you're not crag son


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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Mat13295 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:09 am #26615

Removal of green text and red text would help as well. Instead of going for "MUH BOOTS" people might actually, ya know, antag for the sake of antag instead of a text in pretty colours "Grats, you made the round dull by emagging into EVA and fucking off into a pod/locker until shift end, you monster."
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Incomptinence » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:04 pm #26654

Most antag's idea of what to do when they ignore their objectives it to try and kill as many people as possible then hijack the shuttle ASAP. There is no murderbone everyone objective sometimes people playing to win is not your actual problem. Also lord forbid we have any tracked statistics for antagonist success so scum can nerf them even further into the ground. So some want to restrict antags to their objectives and some want to remove objectives, already the varying rp goals are showing.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Ikarrus » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:12 pm #26669

Incomptinence wrote:Most antag's idea of what to do when they ignore their objectives it to try and kill as many people as possible then hijack the shuttle ASAP. There is no murderbone everyone objective sometimes people playing to win is not your actual problem.

Pretty much this

"Playing to win" was originally referring more to players whose only goal in the round was stopping the antagonists from winning. Somehow it's now used to deride antagonists from trying to accomplish their objectives.

Not giving the antagonists any direction or goal to work towards will only encourage mass murders and sabotage, because they have nothing to lose.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby bandit » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:30 pm #26680

That, I believe, is mostly a combination of policy (silicon policy making "AI LAW 2 LET ME INTO EVA" viable, security policy preventing them from being proactive) code (most objectives are simply too easy, yet more involved objectives would be hard to code) and entrenched playstyle (anyone attempting a traitor gimmick is likely to be validhunted, which brings us back to square 1 in the OP), so I'm at a loss as to how one would even fix it.
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Scott » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:36 pm #26682

Mat13295 wrote:Removal of green text and red text would help as well. Instead of going for "MUH BOOTS" people might actually, ya know, antag for the sake of antag instead of a text in pretty colours "Grats, you made the round dull by emagging into EVA and fucking off into a pod/locker until shift end, you monster."


No, the green text is fine. Players eventually get bored of pursuing the same objectives, you don't need to remove anything.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby MisterPerson » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:26 am #26969

Just because spamming the radio is bannable doesn't mean we can't ALSO keep the rule that players are allowed to beat the spammer's head in. A proposed rule to cover this situation:

"If you are being intentionally griefed by someone clearly breaking the rules, you are allowed to take whatever steps are necessary to end any ongoing grief against you as long as you make an effort to resolve the situation without violence if possible and adminhelp the situation as soon as you are not in danger. You do not need to wait for a reply. For example, if someone is spamming over the radio, ask them to stop. If they don't, you may adminhelp the situation and then feel free to bash their head in to get them to shut up. If they do stop spamming, you are no longer allowed to kill them, but you are still encouraged to adminhelp and get an admin involved."

Or if you want it shorter:

"If you are being griefed, adminhelp the situation. If there are no admins on or you don't get a response after a few minutes, feel free to take matters into your own hands and remove the griefer using any means necessary."

If you dislike that wording, well we can always remove "The WGW Rule" altogether, because that's what it is in a nutshell.

callanrockslol wrote:If it was just a murder for a valid reason most people wouldn't bat an eyelash, if it involved an esword or revolver or the like then they would get their head bashed in and Space Justice doled out.


There's a big difference between killing someone who tried to kill you with an esword (ok) and killing/permabrigging the clown because they bought a chameleon jumpsuit to put on a play (not ok) solely on the basis that "They're an antag".
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Reimoo » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:21 pm #27285

TL;DR: More content, not more policies k thx

Reworking our policies won't change behavior in game. It would be naive to think so. It would only result in player-admin tension and will either make the problem worse or descend into bay levels of enforcement.

Now, the main point I want to get across is that the content that is in the game affects how people play, including RP tendencies. Given limited means, obviously the traitors are are going to gravitate towards the behavior that ensures success. Which, according to the complaints listed, is RPless powergaming/murderboning. Now, the fact that two, potentially three or even all of the four possible objectives traitors are given involve murder (assassinate, steal, escape alone, exchange), they don't have many options for approaching their objectives other than resorting to violence or boring methods such as emag swipe and run. These objectives also mean that antags aren't encouraged to create fun for the rest of the crew either, considering the current objectives only involve very few people the antag has to interact with. Combined with the fact that antags are woefully under equipped to deal with objectives with RP as it is, this means the only effective means available is usually resorting to murder. Now there are some antags that ignore their objectives entirely, but the bottom line is that we want to introduce new means available to antags so that fun scenarios that involve a healthy dose of RP would be more common. I want to see hostage situations, bomb threats, and wacky moustache twiddling schemes, not this boring emag into EVA and swipe the jetpack shit.

Now on the topic of the means available to antags currently, if we take a look at the uplink list, an experienced player will tell you the most commonly purchased items are weapons. Why? Because they're the items that have the best efficiency/cost ratio despite being the most expensive items on the list. (Also killing people is fun. Can't help that.) That alone says something about the value of the other items - not even a RP item that costs 1TC such as the chameleon stamp is hardly ever used. First step we can take to address this issue is not only rework the costs but introduce new gadgets to the list.

This is only a tiny fraction of what I can suggest that I think would fix our RP issues right now, given the fact that most of my rant concerned traitor play only. But the bottom line is if we want to change the attitude of our players, we have to start introducing new content in the game that encourages desired behavior, not scribble a few words onto the policy list and potentially neglect to enforce them. The average player doesn't know/care about what the policies say you should do. Forcing them to act according to adopted etiquette will only result in hitler admins and disgruntled players.

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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:24 am #27411

That's all good and well, and you certainly have a point, but it all comes down to what content you want to introduce and who's gonna make it, if it's even possible to make it, also what other potential consequences it might introduce.

It's a lot harder, time and resource consuming and a lot less efficient than to, like you said, "scribble a few words onto the policy".

Scott
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Re: The Reality of Roleplay and Schizo-Policies

Postby Scott » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:42 am #27432

It's easier to just remove things and call yourself a coder than to actually create something good.

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