Mutantrace Discussion

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Kiryuuin
 
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Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Kiryuuin » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:08 am #26580

There is some discussion that is needed over the subject of alternate races being enabled with the September 1, 2014 update.

How will the mutant races interact with the AI?

Will mutant races retain their buffs/debuffs?

How will assuming the identity of a crewmember who is a different race than you work?

Will any more mutant races be introduced/will the feature even stay enabled?

These are all just general talking points to get us started, and I'm sure there are many other things that can be discussed.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Mandurrrh » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:17 am #26583

Mutant races are being added? Which ones?

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Ikarrus » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:17 am #26584

Human and Lizard are the only ones available right now
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Mandurrrh » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:19 am #26586

Ikarrus wrote:Human and Lizard are the only ones available right now



Ahh I thought we were about to go full bay code.

Which I'd kind of be okay with on the second server. I've been playing on vg to switch it up because bay is a little slow for my taste and its nice with the different coding styles and races even.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:41 am #26592

There will definitely need to be discussion on mutantraces and their relation to the AI. These aliens are not human, thus are not afforded the protections under its lawset. However, there is already a policy stating that a nonhuman is protected under the AIs lawsets so long as it remains friendly. The moment it breaks a law or is hostile it loses its rights.

Personally, if a species gains a small buff it must also suffer from a small debuff. Humans are the baseline and gain no advantage, but they don't suffer from any disadvantage.

*EDIT*
Also, to go with our servers limited lore, I think non-humans should be restricted from any command/security role. Maybe regulated to civilian jobs only?
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Kangaraptor » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:19 am #26595

to go with the limited lore, NT wouldn't give a flying fuck as long as they were unhinged enough to take the job in the first place.

the crew, on the other hand...
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby mrpain » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:21 am #26600

I think the current silicon policy addresses alternate races just fine; Dont fuck with them unless they become a problem.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Hibbles » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:49 am #26606

Rule 1, just don't be a jerk to other /tg/ players who are playing lizard characters without a valid reason (like them trying to murder you).
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Stickymayhem » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:59 am #26636

Hibbles wrote:Rule 1, just don't be a jerk to other /tg/ players who are playing lizard characters without a valid reason (like them trying to murder you).


Does this mean no intergalactic racism?

I want to be a lizardman who can't get any job other than janitor from the discriminatory HoP
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby peoplearestrange » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:02 am #26638

Moving this to the policy discussion, seems more relevant there really.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:05 am #26639

Stickymayhem wrote:
Does this mean no intergalactic racism?

I want to be a lizardman who can't get any job other than janitor from the discriminatory HoP


Wouldn't that be hard to moderate? Firstly /tg/ does not allow racism (afaik) in the first place.

Then how do you differentiate between a Lizard player just wanting a job change, and a Lizard player wanting to roleplay the discriminated guy?

Either Lizard people are by default discriminated against (When it comes to job prospects), or they are not. I do think it would be interesting to limit Lizardmen to civilian jobs and see if a charismatic lizardman can work their way to a high level job.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby looping » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:41 am #26641

I was under the impression that lizards were the 'mexicans' of the station, the under-appreciated workers that everyone shits on.
If we're going for realism then it is perfectly acceptable that humanity absorbed or murdered every other species they encountered so that they could be employed as workers with no rights, because fuckyeah humanity.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:45 am #26643

It's cool as long as you can randomly abuse lizards.

I mean, come on. What other purpose would it serve?

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Stickymayhem » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:53 am #26644

Discrimination would serve a purpose for game balance too. Lizard man security and heads would absolutely suck for traitors hoping to covertly kill and replace them.

I think it would be cool if they had some small brute or toxin resistance to compensate.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:06 pm #26646

After playing as lizard captain, I think that lizards add quite fun interactions that are potentially gonna worsen greytiding, that lizards look better than humans and that their ears look like cat ears.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Aurx » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:43 pm #26659

I would strongly recommend not putting any policy into effect for a week or two of mutantraces being enabled. Anything done in haste will result in policy designed to combat problems that will only be present in the initial frenzy of activity. Things will calm down and the novelty of space racism will wear off.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Alex Crimson » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:44 am #26741

I think the racism is fine. So long as its kept verbal and done in good fun. Actually killing a Lizardman because you feel they are valid is shitty and shouldnt be allowed.

I asked on the server yesterday and the admins said that Non-human races are covered by Law 1 until they attempt to harm humans. Sounds just fine to me.

Dont really like Lizardmen(They talk funny) but things seem to be going well since they were added. The worst ive seen so far is the AI bolting a mob of them into the Holodeck and burning them to death. Everyone took it well though, so whatever.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby cedarbridge » Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:00 am #26768

Alex Crimson wrote:I think the racism is fine. So long as its kept verbal and done in good fun. Actually killing a Lizardman because you feel they are valid is shitty and shouldnt be allowed.

I asked on the server yesterday and the admins said that Non-human races are covered by Law 1 until they attempt to harm humans. Sounds just fine to me.

Dont really like Lizardmen(They talk funny) but things seem to be going well since they were added. The worst ive seen so far is the AI bolting a mob of them into the Holodeck and burning them to death. Everyone took it well though, so whatever.

That was also an antag AI and got a little "Literally Hitler" trophy at its satellite for the act.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby callanrockslol » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:06 am #26795

They would be fine as nonhuman, just covered under rule 1 so people cant fuck them up for no reason.

Then when the snowflake hits someone and the AI starts purging them all it would be hilarious.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby QuartzCrystal » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:14 am #26923

Only thing I'd like is for everyone to stop losing their shit over the lizards. Every round devolves into a race war essentially.

There was one round where I was HoP where there was the ALM (Anti-Lizard Movement) and the LDL (Lizard Defense League) where the lizards had gotten weapon permits and tasers to defend themselves from racist ALMers (there were peaceful protests, etc). This was fun...once.

Now every round involves a bajillion head messages about lizards, people are screaming about lizards and almost always the AI ends up with a law being uploaded that has to do with lizards. I get that people are excited for a new change, but this seriously needs to simmer down to a point where the existence of lizards doesn't end up defining every single round.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Aurx » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:42 am #26925

QuartzCrystal wrote:Only thing I'd like is for everyone to stop losing their shit over the lizards. Every round devolves into a race war essentially.

There was one round where I was HoP where there was the ALM (Anti-Lizard Movement) and the LDL (Lizard Defense League) where the lizards had gotten weapon permits and tasers to defend themselves from racist ALMers (there were peaceful protests, etc). This was fun...once.

Now every round involves a bajillion head messages about lizards, people are screaming about lizards and almost always the AI ends up with a law being uploaded that has to do with lizards. I get that people are excited for a new change, but this seriously needs to simmer down to a point where the existence of lizards doesn't end up defining every single round.

It'll cool down pretty quickly.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:12 am #26988

QuartzCrystal wrote:Only thing I'd like is for everyone to stop losing their shit over the lizards. Every round devolves into a race war essentially.

There was one round where I was HoP where there was the ALM (Anti-Lizard Movement) and the LDL (Lizard Defense League) where the lizards had gotten weapon permits and tasers to defend themselves from racist ALMers (there were peaceful protests, etc). This was fun...once.

Now every round involves a bajillion head messages about lizards, people are screaming about lizards and almost always the AI ends up with a law being uploaded that has to do with lizards. I get that people are excited for a new change, but this seriously needs to simmer down to a point where the existence of lizards doesn't end up defining every single round.

Isn't that the purpose of adding a new race that is exactly the same in every other way?

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby MisterPerson » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:21 pm #27284

Reminder: The lizards can always be toggled off if its felt they're not adding anything to the game.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Reimoo » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:34 pm #27287

To be honest, they really aren't. The space racism thing is kinda neat, but when a lizardman can sign up as a captain or any other high position on roundstart, people acting racist, even if it is in good RP sense, comes off as really one-dimensional.

We will get tripped up on AI policy a lot though. That's one thing that will be added.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Ikarrus » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:37 pm #27289

How would you guys feel about barring lizards from heads and security, then? :)
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby QuartzCrystal » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:57 pm #27297

Ikarrus wrote:How would you guys feel about barring lizards from heads and security, then? :)


I think this would be a great tweak.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby ThanatosRa » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:02 pm #27298

Yes. Specism.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Stickymayhem » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:25 pm #27303

Ikarrus wrote:How would you guys feel about barring lizards from heads and security, then? :)


This would be cool. That or leaving CE, CMO and RD still selectable as lizardperson as they are less important roles.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Aurx » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:34 pm #27307

Stickymayhem wrote:
Ikarrus wrote:How would you guys feel about barring lizards from heads and security, then? :)


This would be cool. That or leaving CE, CMO and RD still selectable as lizardperson as they are less important roles.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Ikarrus » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:44 pm #27311

I didn't actually believe anyone would be behind it, but yeah I'll see what I can do.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby QuartzCrystal » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:51 pm #27313

Ikarrus wrote:I didn't actually believe anyone would be behind it, but yeah I'll see what I can do.


Well it makes sense from a roleplay perspective and would certainly distinguish tg-station from other servers that have multiple playable species.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby ThanatosRa » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:17 am #27333

IT also doesn't mean that a dirty lizard can't Uncle-Tom enough to usurp one of those positions legally in the middle of a round as well.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Reimoo » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:31 am #27334

Actually a race traitor lizardman would be a really cool gimmick.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby bandit » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:47 am #27344

I don't know whether this goes in the silicon policy thread or here but it's almost always about mutantraces when it comes up, so:

- AI is Asimov.
- Captain (or RD or HoP or whatever I guess) wants to pre-emptively stop the AI from fucking with lizardpeople.
- Captain uploads a freeform law: "Lizardpeople are human."

Every time this has happened, some joker is like "You do realize that this law 4 technically nonhumans the rest of the station, right?" I don't see how it would, because the law says nothing about the humanity status of anyone else but lizardpeople. Uploading "Ian is human" doesn't make Ian the only human, same logic. But it comes up often enough that I'd like an official ruling on it.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Kangaraptor » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:50 am #27345

bandit wrote:I don't know whether this goes in the silicon policy thread or here but it's almost always about mutantraces when it comes up, so:

- AI is Asimov.
- Captain (or RD or HoP or whatever I guess) wants to pre-emptively stop the AI from fucking with lizardpeople.
- Captain uploads a freeform law: "Lizardpeople are human."

Every time this has happened, some joker is like "You do realize that this law 4 technically nonhumans the rest of the station, right?" I don't see how it would, because the law says nothing about the humanity status of anyone else but lizardpeople. Uploading "Ian is human" doesn't make Ian the only human, same logic. But it comes up often enough that I'd like an official ruling on it.


people who say it makes the rest of the crew nonhuman are dumb

the law doesn't specifically state that ONLY lizard people are nonhuman, ergo the AI could (depending on their interpretation, mind you) maintain the human status of the rest of the crew.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Ikarrus » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:45 am #27381

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:51 am #27410

Come on, lizards in command roles is so much better. One of the greatest lizard rounds I had was with me being lizard captain.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby QuartzCrystal » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:20 pm #27450

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Come on, lizards in command roles is so much better. One of the greatest lizard rounds I had was with me being lizard captain.


How? What does this add?

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:03 pm #27470

QuartzCrystal wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Come on, lizards in command roles is so much better. One of the greatest lizard rounds I had was with me being lizard captain.


How? What does this add?

Lizards were nobles and humans were peasants. So good.

Restricting it, on the other hand, does nothing but enforce roleplay via code. Which is not needed at all.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby QuartzCrystal » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:32 pm #27475

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
QuartzCrystal wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Come on, lizards in command roles is so much better. One of the greatest lizard rounds I had was with me being lizard captain.


How? What does this add?

Lizards were nobles and humans were peasants. So good.

Restricting it, on the other hand, does nothing but enforce roleplay via code. Which is not needed at all.


I'm just of the opinion that keeping the server distinct from others is a good idea, and lots of roleplay aspects are enforced via code. I see no problem with solidifying a general roleplay trend that has been around on our server for basically as long as it's been around.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Kelenius » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:08 pm #27487

QuartzCrystal wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
QuartzCrystal wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Come on, lizards in command roles is so much better. One of the greatest lizard rounds I had was with me being lizard captain.


How? What does this add?

Lizards were nobles and humans were peasants. So good.

Restricting it, on the other hand, does nothing but enforce roleplay via code. Which is not needed at all.


I'm just of the opinion that keeping the server distinct from others is a good idea, and lots of roleplay aspects are enforced via code. I see no problem with solidifying a general roleplay trend that has been around on our server for basically as long as it's been around.

http://baystation12.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9632

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:20 pm #27489

Personally I think that in such as Human dominated society, that the usage of non-humans in command roles would be heavily looked down upon. Not saying it would be impossible, but think of it more akin to a woman in a CEO/high level position 60 years ago. Rare as hell, looked down upon and had to work significantly harder to attain such a position.

I think that non-humans should be restricted from playing in any command or security role for the time being.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:04 pm #27508

There is literally nothing here that suggests anything of the sort. We don't have a background or anything. It's just for the long time you could not pick anything other than humans.

What point is there in restricting it anyway?

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Reimoo » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:15 pm #27511

If you've been played at all for the past week or so, you would notice that there is widespread racism against lizardpeople. Why not encourage interesting RP scenarios because of that? Plus, you know, it makes sense IC wise.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby QuartzCrystal » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:28 pm #27514

Baystation also has 6 different species options, and are significantly heavier in the RP (notice how they heavily discourage as opposed to code it in).

Also, lizard folk have been in the game for a long ass time, basically any time someone was made into a lizard person by admins they would face persecution and sometimes entire rounds would become a big ol' speciesist hoopla just like recent rounds this week, it was pretty common until SoS outright banned admins from turning players into different species.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby cedarbridge » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:23 pm #27523

Kangaraptor wrote:
bandit wrote:I don't know whether this goes in the silicon policy thread or here but it's almost always about mutantraces when it comes up, so:

- AI is Asimov.
- Captain (or RD or HoP or whatever I guess) wants to pre-emptively stop the AI from fucking with lizardpeople.
- Captain uploads a freeform law: "Lizardpeople are human."

Every time this has happened, some joker is like "You do realize that this law 4 technically nonhumans the rest of the station, right?" I don't see how it would, because the law says nothing about the humanity status of anyone else but lizardpeople. Uploading "Ian is human" doesn't make Ian the only human, same logic. But it comes up often enough that I'd like an official ruling on it.


people who say it makes the rest of the crew nonhuman are dumb

the law doesn't specifically state that ONLY lizard people are nonhuman, ergo the AI could (depending on their interpretation, mind you) maintain the human status of the rest of the crew.

This. The AI/borgs would have to be functionally illiterate to interpret a law that expands the definition of human to exclude the previously defined group.

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby QuartzCrystal » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:31 pm #27537

Code idea: I've noticed Ian barks near lizards. I'm sure this is just a coincidence but is it possible to code in that Ian is a spesiesist too?

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Kangaraptor » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:16 am #27586

I don't know if this is possible with BYOND code, but... Why not rather than ban lizards from command/sec, we weight the job selection to favour humans. It means that while yes, sometimes you'll have a lizard in a command role, it's not gonna happen as frequently as Aryan McMasterrace being captain.
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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:08 am #27601

Reimoo wrote:If you've been played at all for the past week or so, you would notice that there is widespread racism against lizardpeople. Why not encourage interesting RP scenarios because of that? Plus, you know, it makes sense IC wise.

Oh, cool. So you remove "captain and heads are lizards, let's rebel against lizard oppression" entirely and encourage... what, exactly?

This makes no fucking sense to me, at all.

Not to mention that this is potentially reducing number of head and security players, WHO WE ACTUALLY NEED

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Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:46 am #27606

Couldn't it be a system where if you are selected for a 'human only' role, you simply don't spawn in as a lizard?
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