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Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:08 am
by Kiryuuin
There is some discussion that is needed over the subject of alternate races being enabled with the September 1, 2014 update.

How will the mutant races interact with the AI?

Will mutant races retain their buffs/debuffs?

How will assuming the identity of a crewmember who is a different race than you work?

Will any more mutant races be introduced/will the feature even stay enabled?

These are all just general talking points to get us started, and I'm sure there are many other things that can be discussed.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:17 am
by Mandurrrh
Mutant races are being added? Which ones?

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:17 am
by Ikarrus
Human and Lizard are the only ones available right now

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:19 am
by Mandurrrh
Ikarrus wrote:Human and Lizard are the only ones available right now

Ahh I thought we were about to go full bay code.

Which I'd kind of be okay with on the second server. I've been playing on vg to switch it up because bay is a little slow for my taste and its nice with the different coding styles and races even.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:41 am
by Steelpoint
There will definitely need to be discussion on mutantraces and their relation to the AI. These aliens are not human, thus are not afforded the protections under its lawset. However, there is already a policy stating that a nonhuman is protected under the AIs lawsets so long as it remains friendly. The moment it breaks a law or is hostile it loses its rights.

Personally, if a species gains a small buff it must also suffer from a small debuff. Humans are the baseline and gain no advantage, but they don't suffer from any disadvantage.

*EDIT*
Also, to go with our servers limited lore, I think non-humans should be restricted from any command/security role. Maybe regulated to civilian jobs only?

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:19 am
by Kangaraptor
to go with the limited lore, NT wouldn't give a flying fuck as long as they were unhinged enough to take the job in the first place.

the crew, on the other hand...

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:21 am
by mrpain
I think the current silicon policy addresses alternate races just fine; Dont fuck with them unless they become a problem.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:49 am
by Hibbles
Rule 1, just don't be a jerk to other /tg/ players who are playing lizard characters without a valid reason (like them trying to murder you).

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:59 am
by Stickymayhem
Hibbles wrote:Rule 1, just don't be a jerk to other /tg/ players who are playing lizard characters without a valid reason (like them trying to murder you).
Does this mean no intergalactic racism?

I want to be a lizardman who can't get any job other than janitor from the discriminatory HoP

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:02 am
by peoplearestrange
Moving this to the policy discussion, seems more relevant there really.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:05 am
by Steelpoint
Stickymayhem wrote:
Does this mean no intergalactic racism?

I want to be a lizardman who can't get any job other than janitor from the discriminatory HoP
Wouldn't that be hard to moderate? Firstly /tg/ does not allow racism (afaik) in the first place.

Then how do you differentiate between a Lizard player just wanting a job change, and a Lizard player wanting to roleplay the discriminated guy?

Either Lizard people are by default discriminated against (When it comes to job prospects), or they are not. I do think it would be interesting to limit Lizardmen to civilian jobs and see if a charismatic lizardman can work their way to a high level job.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:41 am
by looping
I was under the impression that lizards were the 'mexicans' of the station, the under-appreciated workers that everyone shits on.
If we're going for realism then it is perfectly acceptable that humanity absorbed or murdered every other species they encountered so that they could be employed as workers with no rights, because fuckyeah humanity.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:45 am
by Lo6a4evskiy
It's cool as long as you can randomly abuse lizards.

I mean, come on. What other purpose would it serve?

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:53 am
by Stickymayhem
Discrimination would serve a purpose for game balance too. Lizard man security and heads would absolutely suck for traitors hoping to covertly kill and replace them.

I think it would be cool if they had some small brute or toxin resistance to compensate.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:06 pm
by Lo6a4evskiy
After playing as lizard captain, I think that lizards add quite fun interactions that are potentially gonna worsen greytiding, that lizards look better than humans and that their ears look like cat ears.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:43 pm
by Aurx
I would strongly recommend not putting any policy into effect for a week or two of mutantraces being enabled. Anything done in haste will result in policy designed to combat problems that will only be present in the initial frenzy of activity. Things will calm down and the novelty of space racism will wear off.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:44 am
by Alex Crimson
I think the racism is fine. So long as its kept verbal and done in good fun. Actually killing a Lizardman because you feel they are valid is shitty and shouldnt be allowed.

I asked on the server yesterday and the admins said that Non-human races are covered by Law 1 until they attempt to harm humans. Sounds just fine to me.

Dont really like Lizardmen(They talk funny) but things seem to be going well since they were added. The worst ive seen so far is the AI bolting a mob of them into the Holodeck and burning them to death. Everyone took it well though, so whatever.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:00 am
by cedarbridge
Alex Crimson wrote:I think the racism is fine. So long as its kept verbal and done in good fun. Actually killing a Lizardman because you feel they are valid is shitty and shouldnt be allowed.

I asked on the server yesterday and the admins said that Non-human races are covered by Law 1 until they attempt to harm humans. Sounds just fine to me.

Dont really like Lizardmen(They talk funny) but things seem to be going well since they were added. The worst ive seen so far is the AI bolting a mob of them into the Holodeck and burning them to death. Everyone took it well though, so whatever.
That was also an antag AI and got a little "Literally Hitler" trophy at its satellite for the act.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:06 am
by callanrockslol
They would be fine as nonhuman, just covered under rule 1 so people cant fuck them up for no reason.

Then when the snowflake hits someone and the AI starts purging them all it would be hilarious.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:14 am
by QuartzCrystal
Only thing I'd like is for everyone to stop losing their shit over the lizards. Every round devolves into a race war essentially.

There was one round where I was HoP where there was the ALM (Anti-Lizard Movement) and the LDL (Lizard Defense League) where the lizards had gotten weapon permits and tasers to defend themselves from racist ALMers (there were peaceful protests, etc). This was fun...once.

Now every round involves a bajillion head messages about lizards, people are screaming about lizards and almost always the AI ends up with a law being uploaded that has to do with lizards. I get that people are excited for a new change, but this seriously needs to simmer down to a point where the existence of lizards doesn't end up defining every single round.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:42 am
by Aurx
QuartzCrystal wrote:Only thing I'd like is for everyone to stop losing their shit over the lizards. Every round devolves into a race war essentially.

There was one round where I was HoP where there was the ALM (Anti-Lizard Movement) and the LDL (Lizard Defense League) where the lizards had gotten weapon permits and tasers to defend themselves from racist ALMers (there were peaceful protests, etc). This was fun...once.

Now every round involves a bajillion head messages about lizards, people are screaming about lizards and almost always the AI ends up with a law being uploaded that has to do with lizards. I get that people are excited for a new change, but this seriously needs to simmer down to a point where the existence of lizards doesn't end up defining every single round.
It'll cool down pretty quickly.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:12 am
by Lo6a4evskiy
QuartzCrystal wrote:Only thing I'd like is for everyone to stop losing their shit over the lizards. Every round devolves into a race war essentially.

There was one round where I was HoP where there was the ALM (Anti-Lizard Movement) and the LDL (Lizard Defense League) where the lizards had gotten weapon permits and tasers to defend themselves from racist ALMers (there were peaceful protests, etc). This was fun...once.

Now every round involves a bajillion head messages about lizards, people are screaming about lizards and almost always the AI ends up with a law being uploaded that has to do with lizards. I get that people are excited for a new change, but this seriously needs to simmer down to a point where the existence of lizards doesn't end up defining every single round.
Isn't that the purpose of adding a new race that is exactly the same in every other way?

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:21 pm
by MisterPerson
Reminder: The lizards can always be toggled off if its felt they're not adding anything to the game.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:34 pm
by Reimoo
To be honest, they really aren't. The space racism thing is kinda neat, but when a lizardman can sign up as a captain or any other high position on roundstart, people acting racist, even if it is in good RP sense, comes off as really one-dimensional.

We will get tripped up on AI policy a lot though. That's one thing that will be added.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:37 pm
by Ikarrus
How would you guys feel about barring lizards from heads and security, then? :)

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:57 pm
by QuartzCrystal
Ikarrus wrote:How would you guys feel about barring lizards from heads and security, then? :)
I think this would be a great tweak.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:02 pm
by ThanatosRa
Yes. Specism.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:25 pm
by Stickymayhem
Ikarrus wrote:How would you guys feel about barring lizards from heads and security, then? :)
This would be cool. That or leaving CE, CMO and RD still selectable as lizardperson as they are less important roles.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:34 pm
by Aurx
Stickymayhem wrote:
Ikarrus wrote:How would you guys feel about barring lizards from heads and security, then? :)
This would be cool. That or leaving CE, CMO and RD still selectable as lizardperson as they are less important roles.
>Chief Engineer
>less important

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:44 pm
by Ikarrus
I didn't actually believe anyone would be behind it, but yeah I'll see what I can do.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:51 pm
by QuartzCrystal
Ikarrus wrote:I didn't actually believe anyone would be behind it, but yeah I'll see what I can do.
Well it makes sense from a roleplay perspective and would certainly distinguish tg-station from other servers that have multiple playable species.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:17 am
by ThanatosRa
IT also doesn't mean that a dirty lizard can't Uncle-Tom enough to usurp one of those positions legally in the middle of a round as well.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:31 am
by Reimoo
Actually a race traitor lizardman would be a really cool gimmick.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:47 am
by bandit
I don't know whether this goes in the silicon policy thread or here but it's almost always about mutantraces when it comes up, so:

- AI is Asimov.
- Captain (or RD or HoP or whatever I guess) wants to pre-emptively stop the AI from fucking with lizardpeople.
- Captain uploads a freeform law: "Lizardpeople are human."

Every time this has happened, some joker is like "You do realize that this law 4 technically nonhumans the rest of the station, right?" I don't see how it would, because the law says nothing about the humanity status of anyone else but lizardpeople. Uploading "Ian is human" doesn't make Ian the only human, same logic. But it comes up often enough that I'd like an official ruling on it.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:50 am
by Kangaraptor
bandit wrote:I don't know whether this goes in the silicon policy thread or here but it's almost always about mutantraces when it comes up, so:

- AI is Asimov.
- Captain (or RD or HoP or whatever I guess) wants to pre-emptively stop the AI from fucking with lizardpeople.
- Captain uploads a freeform law: "Lizardpeople are human."

Every time this has happened, some joker is like "You do realize that this law 4 technically nonhumans the rest of the station, right?" I don't see how it would, because the law says nothing about the humanity status of anyone else but lizardpeople. Uploading "Ian is human" doesn't make Ian the only human, same logic. But it comes up often enough that I'd like an official ruling on it.
people who say it makes the rest of the crew nonhuman are dumb

the law doesn't specifically state that ONLY lizard people are nonhuman, ergo the AI could (depending on their interpretation, mind you) maintain the human status of the rest of the crew.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:45 am
by Ikarrus

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:51 am
by Lo6a4evskiy
Come on, lizards in command roles is so much better. One of the greatest lizard rounds I had was with me being lizard captain.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:20 pm
by QuartzCrystal
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Come on, lizards in command roles is so much better. One of the greatest lizard rounds I had was with me being lizard captain.
How? What does this add?

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:03 pm
by Lo6a4evskiy
QuartzCrystal wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Come on, lizards in command roles is so much better. One of the greatest lizard rounds I had was with me being lizard captain.
How? What does this add?
Lizards were nobles and humans were peasants. So good.

Restricting it, on the other hand, does nothing but enforce roleplay via code. Which is not needed at all.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:32 pm
by QuartzCrystal
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
QuartzCrystal wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Come on, lizards in command roles is so much better. One of the greatest lizard rounds I had was with me being lizard captain.
How? What does this add?
Lizards were nobles and humans were peasants. So good.

Restricting it, on the other hand, does nothing but enforce roleplay via code. Which is not needed at all.
I'm just of the opinion that keeping the server distinct from others is a good idea, and lots of roleplay aspects are enforced via code. I see no problem with solidifying a general roleplay trend that has been around on our server for basically as long as it's been around.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:08 pm
by Kelenius
QuartzCrystal wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
QuartzCrystal wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Come on, lizards in command roles is so much better. One of the greatest lizard rounds I had was with me being lizard captain.
How? What does this add?
Lizards were nobles and humans were peasants. So good.

Restricting it, on the other hand, does nothing but enforce roleplay via code. Which is not needed at all.
I'm just of the opinion that keeping the server distinct from others is a good idea, and lots of roleplay aspects are enforced via code. I see no problem with solidifying a general roleplay trend that has been around on our server for basically as long as it's been around.
http://baystation12.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9632

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:20 pm
by Steelpoint
Personally I think that in such as Human dominated society, that the usage of non-humans in command roles would be heavily looked down upon. Not saying it would be impossible, but think of it more akin to a woman in a CEO/high level position 60 years ago. Rare as hell, looked down upon and had to work significantly harder to attain such a position.

I think that non-humans should be restricted from playing in any command or security role for the time being.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:04 pm
by Lo6a4evskiy
There is literally nothing here that suggests anything of the sort. We don't have a background or anything. It's just for the long time you could not pick anything other than humans.

What point is there in restricting it anyway?

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:15 pm
by Reimoo
If you've been played at all for the past week or so, you would notice that there is widespread racism against lizardpeople. Why not encourage interesting RP scenarios because of that? Plus, you know, it makes sense IC wise.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:28 pm
by QuartzCrystal
Baystation also has 6 different species options, and are significantly heavier in the RP (notice how they heavily discourage as opposed to code it in).

Also, lizard folk have been in the game for a long ass time, basically any time someone was made into a lizard person by admins they would face persecution and sometimes entire rounds would become a big ol' speciesist hoopla just like recent rounds this week, it was pretty common until SoS outright banned admins from turning players into different species.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:23 pm
by cedarbridge
Kangaraptor wrote:
bandit wrote:I don't know whether this goes in the silicon policy thread or here but it's almost always about mutantraces when it comes up, so:

- AI is Asimov.
- Captain (or RD or HoP or whatever I guess) wants to pre-emptively stop the AI from fucking with lizardpeople.
- Captain uploads a freeform law: "Lizardpeople are human."

Every time this has happened, some joker is like "You do realize that this law 4 technically nonhumans the rest of the station, right?" I don't see how it would, because the law says nothing about the humanity status of anyone else but lizardpeople. Uploading "Ian is human" doesn't make Ian the only human, same logic. But it comes up often enough that I'd like an official ruling on it.
people who say it makes the rest of the crew nonhuman are dumb

the law doesn't specifically state that ONLY lizard people are nonhuman, ergo the AI could (depending on their interpretation, mind you) maintain the human status of the rest of the crew.
This. The AI/borgs would have to be functionally illiterate to interpret a law that expands the definition of human to exclude the previously defined group.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:31 pm
by QuartzCrystal
Code idea: I've noticed Ian barks near lizards. I'm sure this is just a coincidence but is it possible to code in that Ian is a spesiesist too?

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:16 am
by Kangaraptor
I don't know if this is possible with BYOND code, but... Why not rather than ban lizards from command/sec, we weight the job selection to favour humans. It means that while yes, sometimes you'll have a lizard in a command role, it's not gonna happen as frequently as Aryan McMasterrace being captain.

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:08 am
by Lo6a4evskiy
Reimoo wrote:If you've been played at all for the past week or so, you would notice that there is widespread racism against lizardpeople. Why not encourage interesting RP scenarios because of that? Plus, you know, it makes sense IC wise.
Oh, cool. So you remove "captain and heads are lizards, let's rebel against lizard oppression" entirely and encourage... what, exactly?

This makes no fucking sense to me, at all.

Not to mention that this is potentially reducing number of head and security players, WHO WE ACTUALLY NEED

Re: Mutantrace Discussion

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:46 am
by Steelpoint
Couldn't it be a system where if you are selected for a 'human only' role, you simply don't spawn in as a lizard?