Of Rev, death and divine intervention

[leibniz]

Often we ask ourselves, is rev worth it? Some say it is the worst mode and others say it is the best.

There is (or perhaps used to be) a saying among admins: "Rev is a hands off mode."
Which I have always disagreed with.
The literal interpretation is obviously false. The contextual meaning is that rev leads to murder that would not be acceptable in other modes.
Which takes us to the main question. How much more grief should we tolerate in rev?

I'll talk about the specific round that inspired me to reconsider things.
So, rev is in progress and there is chaos as usual. The round was dragging on. The HoS says on the radio that everyone should come to cargo for implants or they will be killed.
Later I see security entering chemistry and gunning down the unimplanted chemists who were just working.
I felt that this is where a line was crossed.
When you are simply moving from place to place and just killing everyone for simply not being explicitly on your team (as the "good guys"), we have strayed too far from the core SS13 gameplay, it is no longer a game of paranoia.
Indiscriminate killing like that eliminates decision making and leads to a game without depth.
Some time ago our idea of fair play was that you have to do something wrong before security wrecks you. But it is also said that security must go full Hitler in rev or they lose. (losing in a game because you did not use the tryhardest way of dealing with things? not acceptable)

After that I decided to send in a deathsquad with the default objective. I was not punishing security (they ended up winning), I simply wanted to take an already lengthy round to its logical conclusion and also appease ghost tears a bit.

When the HoS perished he complained the deathsquad are just killing everyone.
Will security players achieve self-awareness one day? We cannot know.
He said he'd make a complaint about me if he wasn't FNR banned but sadly I did not get to use the excuse that it was an """"event"""".

Who was in the wrong here?

[oranges]

you for making this stupid ass post

[leibniz]

you for making this stupid ass post

I'll post something nice on singulo too in a few days, no need to get jealous

[Lazengann]

Wow why are people killing people who aren't on their team during team deathmatch I'd better send in the deathsquad to punish them

[CPTANT]

Wow why are people killing people who aren't on their team during team deathmatch I'd better send in the deathsquad to punish them

Yeah especially after that ultimatum to get implanted, gosh who would have thought disobeying direct orders during rev might get your killed!

[XDTM]

Wow why are people killing people who aren't on their team during team deathmatch I'd better send in the deathsquad to punish them

Yeah especially after that ultimatum to get implanted, gosh who would have thought disobeying direct orders during rev might get your killed!

In that case just make everyone not implanted a rev after 15 minutes so they can at least fight back

[Lazengann]

They can fight back
You're under no obligation to let yourself die

Then again maybe you shouldn't be surprised if you die when you do the thing security tells you not to do

[D&B]

>Don't follow ultimatum
>You're not happy people suffer from consequences because of this
>Decide to abuse admin buttons
>Make a thread pinning this as the gamemode fault

Ebin

[Gigapuddi420]

that would just turn rev strategy into hiding for 15 minutes to automatically get all the crew under your control.

How security deals with a revolution comes down to their numbers and how pressured they feel. It can range from just arresting and implanting obvious revs to roaming death squads killing anyone without the flashing blue icon. Grouping up and stunning people who aren't implanted is the safest method. Killing them for being unimplanted is crude, but it skips out on the processing part which slows things down. Downside to killing unimplanted is you can't recruit the dead to your side, also it tends to turn the crew against you.

Personally I wouldn't mind a sort of Minor Victory/ Major Victory system like Nuclear Operatives have. For loyalists it might be keeping a certain percentage of the crew alive while eliminating the revolutionaries. For revolutionaries you might count how many crew members are part of the revolution and unimplanted crew members count when the round ends if they aren't dead (so small but quick revolutions are still rewarded). Minor victory is still a victory, but represents the fact you won with scorched earth tactics, so it's more of a pyrrhic victory.

[imblyings]

We don't ask security to be punching bags in rev and unfortunately, the bar for violence set by revs is 'murder at any given moment by anyone', so security has had to respond in kind. This acknowledgement doesn't rule out security still doing something spectacularly stupid even with their lax rev rules, so depending on time of round, dead vs alive player count etc., deathsquad or other IC consequences are not out of the question.

[bman]

Who was in the wrong here?

In my opinion, Leibniz messed up here; divine intervention was not appropriate due to the fact that the crew had ample warning from the HoS for what is in fact routine behavior during on-station revolutionary uprisings; security is, to be blunt, forced to act in ways that may seem like unreasonable behaviour, furthermore, it seems that their frustration at the gamemode was inadvertently vented at security for performing their job.

However, by creating this thread and plainly asking for other people's view on this situation they've opened themselves up to input and expressed reasonable doubt in their own actions, something that I believe is sadly rare in the current incumbent administration team - it is for this reason that although this - in my opinion - was a mistake on their part, I implore the admin team to take this experience as a reaffirmation of Leibniz's solid judgement.

Mission success soldier.

[cedarbridge]

"Everyone's getting implanted and everyone not implanted gets shot" is pretty standard practice. This is especially true if the round had drug on as long as the OP leads me to believe. I'm not sure what sec's offense was here? Command roles being authoritarian? In a mode simulating an uprising against those command roles?

[Steelpoint]

If you dislike how the game mode turns security into a antagonist faction then consider removing rev.

In this scenario, security was well within their rights. They are dealing with a fully fledged rebellion where the rebels can instantly discern friend from foe, security has the disadvantage and the revs set the bar very low for how fast they'll murder someone.

[Hathkar]

Or you could just rework/remove revs. It's a glorified team deathmatch at its heart.

[Wyzack]

Not to mention how can sec know that chem isnt making deathmixes, bombs, or any of the other shit that chemistry can do? We can not make conversion modes lopsided and then complain when the disadvantaged side plays hard to regain the edge.

That said i always thought rev was shit but at least its short and i get why people like it

[Anonmare]

I don't really enjoy revolution due to how fast it moves and how it encourages a: "You must play this exact way or you are sabotaging your team" playstyle. A bad combination in my own opinion.

I've suggested giving revolutionaries imperfect information. Revheads able to identify other revheads and all revolutionaries while converted revolutionaries able to recognise the revheads and fellow revolutionaries who were converted by the same revhead.

The idea being to make revolutionaries less inclined to murder people on sight at the risk of accidentally killing another team member and encouraging the revheads to take charge as leaders for the revolutionaries to gather around and follow. It also allows the ability for unimplanted loyalist crewmembers (and the Heads of Staff) to avoid the revolutionary death squad by dressing up as one of the rabble.

[BeeSting12]

I don't really enjoy revolution due to how fast it moves and how it encourages a: "You must play this exact way or you are sabotaging your team" playstyle. A bad combination in my own opinion.

I've suggested giving revolutionaries imperfect information. Revheads able to identify other revheads and all revolutionaries while converted revolutionaries able to recognise the revheads and fellow revolutionaries who were converted by the same revhead.

The idea being to make revolutionaries less inclined to murder people on sight at the risk of accidentally killing another team member and encouraging the revheads to take charge as leaders for the revolutionaries to gather around and follow. It also allows the ability for unimplanted loyalist crewmembers (and the Heads of Staff) to avoid the revolutionary death squad by dressing up as one of the rabble.

It would be interesting to see this in action, would be going back to paranoia etc.

[Qbopper]

I don't really enjoy revolution due to how fast it moves and how it encourages a: "You must play this exact way or you are sabotaging your team" playstyle. A bad combination in my own opinion.

I've suggested giving revolutionaries imperfect information. Revheads able to identify other revheads and all revolutionaries while converted revolutionaries able to recognise the revheads and fellow revolutionaries who were converted by the same revhead.

The idea being to make revolutionaries less inclined to murder people on sight at the risk of accidentally killing another team member and encouraging the revheads to take charge as leaders for the revolutionaries to gather around and follow. It also allows the ability for unimplanted loyalist crewmembers (and the Heads of Staff) to avoid the revolutionary death squad by dressing up as one of the rabble.

this seems like a fucking awesome idea

- heads are still identifiable as targets when they're wearing head clothing/etc.
- revheads are identifiable so you don't ruin the round
- non revs can play along and try to bluff revs, but revheads can call them out

would likely create some admin headaches when people inevitably fuck up and attack eachother, but this sounds like it would make rev a lot more enjoyable and actually use some of the elements of ss13 that are good instead of it being a painful deathmatch

[BeeSting12]

We could remove all antagHUDs for all conversion antags and see how that goes down.

[Qbopper]

We could remove all antagHUDs for all conversion antags and see how that goes down.

I don't know if that's as great of an idea

[captain sawrge]

I don't really enjoy revolution due to how fast it moves and how it encourages a: "You must play this exact way or you are sabotaging your team" playstyle. A bad combination in my own opinion.

I've suggested giving revolutionaries imperfect information. Revheads able to identify other revheads and all revolutionaries while converted revolutionaries able to recognise the revheads and fellow revolutionaries who were converted by the same revhead.

I would heavily disagree with the first point and I don't see how your proposed solution would solve anything.

Rev is probably one of the most open-ended modes in the game

[BeeSting12]

appease ghost tears a bit.

Doing something to appease ghost tears is rarely a good idea if ever. If I did that, there'd be an ERT everyone round with more than ten casualties and half of deadchat would be spawned as a revenant or ninja. Let the round play out, they died so ctrl c ctrl v rule 10 into deadchat and leave it.

[Qbopper]

ghost tears are retarded anyways, it made more sense when we had like just PAIs as a ghost role but now that there's so much shit you can do as a ghost that doesn't even include the RNG stuff like morphs or whatever that you have no real reason to complain

(imo)

[Anonmare]

I don't really enjoy revolution due to how fast it moves and how it encourages a: "You must play this exact way or you are sabotaging your team" playstyle. A bad combination in my own opinion.

I've suggested giving revolutionaries imperfect information. Revheads able to identify other revheads and all revolutionaries while converted revolutionaries able to recognise the revheads and fellow revolutionaries who were converted by the same revhead.

I would heavily disagree with the first point and I don't see how your proposed solution would solve anything.

Rev is probably one of the most open-ended modes in the game

If it's open-ended I've never seen it. They almost always play out the same way with the odd outlier. There's no talking or interaction beyond chucking spears at anyone not on your team and if security doesn't powergame to hell and back they will be dead before the 15 minute mark.

It's always been a hands-off mode administratively (and don't tell me it isn't because I've adminned rev modes and the go-to solution was always "it's rev, don't bother") but slowing down the pace would finally give admins a foot in the door to do something when security goes too far and neutral palyers don't get shit on for the crime of not being a team antagonist or one of the few implanted before the roaming lynch squads roll out.

[captain sawrge]

If you're set on staying neutral in a rev round, that's on you, but you better acknowledge that you're most likely to end up domed by one side or another if you're just going to try and pretend nothing is going on. If anything, it's unrealistic to expect people to simply ignore a hostile revolt in a closed environment.
Either join a side, stock up and shack up, hide, or be prepared to fight.

Any mode can boil down to "you hit the other side until they all die." Rev isn't bogged down by having its own set of unique mechanics and "meta." It expects either side to make use of the resources on the station granted to them by their respective control of the various departments in order to get the upper hand on the other side. Security has the natural advantage initially on account of holding the brig and armory, but it's up to the revs to use their numbers and resources to find a way to counter this, whether it's bombs, atmos, makeshift weapons, breaking and entering, hacking, subverting the AI, or whatever else they can come up with.

[leibniz]

Alright, I've come to terms with my opinion and views being outdated.

[captain sawrge]

Alright, I've come to terms with my opinion and views being outdated.

Rev has been this way since I started playing six years ago.

[oranges]

I told you it was a stupid post, rev hasn't changed in six years because there's literally nothing to change.

It's a blow off team deathmatch that happens hopefully not to often in a day and lets people let out some of their more murdery tendencies so they dont' fuck up other rounds instead.

[Hathkar]

I told you it was a stupid post, rev hasn't changed in six years because there's literally nothing to change.

It's a blow off team deathmatch that happens hopefully not to often in a day and lets people let out some of their more murdery tendencies so they dont' fuck up other rounds instead.

Revolution has a 12% chance of being the gamemod. It's not rare in the slightest. It's not uncommon to see 3-4 rev rounds happen one after another.

As for letting people let off steam, from what I've seen it just makes people form grudges and leads to frustration on non-rev rounds.

[PKPenguin321]

Ignore the abrasive thot slayer

[iamgoofball]

Yeah, rev is important to keep the murderboners sated.

[Arianya]

Anyone who says rev has no paranoia in it has obviously never played Warden, watching as greyshits mill about outside the brig shouting for implants. Do they actually want implants? Or do they want to smash in my skull and steal my armory? Is it even fucking revs or are greyshits just wasting my implants so they can get leeway from stupid sec officers?

Also generally speaking while I disapprove of pre-emptive security deathsquads the "security have to be hardasses to win rev" is true in basically any rev round that doesn't end in 4 minutes because the headrev tried to flash the QM.

[calzilla1]

The game is basically: buy implants or die spectacularly, which, in its current state, isnt too bad. Actually one of my favourite moments was whenI was the last head and manged to hunt down and slaughter the last rev head

[feem]

I've always seen rev as a release valve for the playerbase.

[PKPenguin321]

Anyone who says rev has no paranoia in it has obviously never played Warden, watching as greyshits mill about outside the brig shouting for implants. Do they actually want implants? Or do they want to smash in my skull and steal my armory? Is it even fucking revs or are greyshits just wasting my implants so they can get leeway from stupid sec officers?

One of my more memorable rounds was as the CMO, when revs rushed and killed every other head and blew up the brig in record time leaving just me alive. Ducking and dodging through taser shots before finding a disguise and trying to identify who the rev heads could be without being seen feels like some rambo-lone survivor-underdog-incredible tension type paranoia. It's great

[cedarbridge]

Anyone who says rev has no paranoia in it has obviously never played Warden, watching as greyshits mill about outside the brig shouting for implants. Do they actually want implants? Or do they want to smash in my skull and steal my armory? Is it even fucking revs or are greyshits just wasting my implants so they can get leeway from stupid sec officers?

One of my more memorable rounds was as the CMO, when revs rushed and killed every other head and blew up the brig in record time leaving just me alive. Ducking and dodging through taser shots before finding a disguise and trying to identify who the rev heads could be without being seen feels like some rambo-lone survivor-underdog-incredible tension type paranoia. It's great

I had a few really tense RD and handpicked science bodyguards vs the world moments. If you send Joe out for supplies and he comes back, is he still loyal? Find out when he stabs you all in the back or not!

[Nilons]

>I'm gonna kill you if you don't do x because the station is in danger
>person doesn't do x
>gets killed
>better press admin buttons to punish the people who clearly said exactly what they were going to do and gave the chemists a chance and warning to not get killed

Revs is a shit gamemode, why would you go out of your way to punish players playing it in an effective way because of that

[Drynwyn]

so long as the chemists/other unimplanted crew can assume that security is out to murder them and respond with their own lethal force after security declares "Do this or die", seems fine.

[captain sawrge]

If x and do y then z equals a divided by b to the fourth times the second integral of root c over fuck you.

[RedRaijiin]

I believe that either flashes have to be more common, or that the conversion method changes.

Like honestly, if you're caught with a flash, before the round antag has been identified, then RIP, I find that people are too quick to jump the boat, and i dont see why such a shitty stun item is so dangerous when a stunprod can do better and isnt countered by sunglasses