Disallow admins to make secborgs & remove them from config.

[FrozenGuy5]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Title.

They were removed. They still should be removed. They are still overpowered. Also, who even asked for them?

btw arm enabled them

yes, this is an i ded.

[duncathan]

As someone from a downstream server, please do not remove them from the code. Other communities do enable, utilise and adapt to the secborg.

Hi there, I promise that no matter the verdict the module will stay defined in the code. We may remove the config option from upstream but if you wish to restore it downstream feel free to ask for help and I will be happy to assist, unless you guys can manage it yourselves.

[Supermichael777]

Based on my experience in arguments over mining and mechs I believe I have pinpointed the EXACT REASON these are so hated.

Their power is not gated by ROUND LENGTH and EFFORT. Clearly a system should be added where they are slowly rewarded for the percentage of humans that remain unharmed slowly building up abilities until they can solo the harmful Durands wandering around.

[Armhulen]

Did you just use a time gate to balance something?

Calling all goofballs!

[onleavedontatme]

Time gating is perfectly valid in a time limited/roundbased game

[Incomptinence]

Ban appeals are not representative of bans.

You work with what's available and I asked them to come forward first.

[John_Oxford]

I can't even count the amount of times secborgs have left arrested individuals in a room with people that were calling for his head a moment ago and woo boy guess that guy mysteriously died who'd have thought

give a specific example

literally any specific example

[PKPenguin321]

Ah just thought you might chalk up a few in secborg week in particular for some reason.

I did look through ban appeals after making that post but I only found one silicon ban appeal to your name.

Haven't been playing anywhere near as much lately. I still love the game but I decided to take a semi-hiatus, I show up maybe once or twice a week. I think I've played a handful of rounds during the secborg test but haven't run into any by coincidence.

Not all bans are appealed so that's not really an accurate indicator, but that's kind of steering off topic.

I can't even count the amount of times secborgs have left arrested individuals in a room with people that were calling for his head a moment ago and woo boy guess that guy mysteriously died who'd have thought

give a specific example

literally any specific example

One time I was playing I think gang and was holed up in virology with the crew during the dominator thing. A secborg came along with several greys armed with flamethrowers (can you even make a non harmful flamethrower) and cracked open virology for them to get those valids, after which most of them promptly caught on fire in the process of killing plenty of us. A shitload of humans died and were harmed at the hand of an asimov secborg and I think he only got noted for it but I wasn't an admin at the time so for all I know he walked off with nothing done to him despite me ahelping it. Not exactly the scenario you described but things like this weren't uncommon, even if this is a more extreme example.

[Dr_bee]

The secborg kit isnt a problem to me it is what players think secborgs are for. They see the name "security" and the red color-scheme and think validhunting is the purpose of the borg and not harm prevention. They think like sec officers first and borgs second when they need to think like borgs ONLY.

Using the example of the e-bow user above, The e-bow is clearly harmful, so that should be the target of your secborgy wrath, not the person using it. The person using it is a person you are supposed to be protecting if they are human.

so to solve the issue in a way that follows the laws best, I as a secborg would stun the person holding the e-bow, grab the e-bow with pull and drag it as far away from humans as possible, possibly to the armory.

law 1 followed, law 2 requests to stop removing the weapon can be ignored under law 1 reasons.

Trying to law 1 justify arresting someone you havent personally witnessed harm a human is shitty borg play, I dont know how to explain that to other borg players.

Secborgs need to be renamed and re-sprited, either merge them with PK borgs or name them protection borgs or something.

[PKPenguin321]

The secborg kit isnt a problem to me it is what players think secborgs are for. They see the name "security" and the red color-scheme and think validhunting is the purpose of the borg and not harm prevention. They think like sec officers first and borgs second when they need to think like borgs ONLY.

Using the example of the e-bow user above, The e-bow is clearly harmful, so that should be the target of your secborgy wrath, not the person using it. The person using it is a person you are supposed to be protecting if they are human.

so to solve the issue in a way that follows the laws best, I as a secborg would stun the person holding the e-bow, grab the e-bow with pull and drag it as far away from humans as possible, possibly to the armory.

law 1 followed, law 2 requests to stop removing the weapon can be ignored under law 1 reasons.

Trying to law 1 justify arresting someone you havent personally witnessed harm a human is shitty borg play, I dont know how to explain that to other borg players.

Secborgs need to be renamed and re-sprited, either merge them with PK borgs or name them protection borgs or something.

Your whole point relies on the borg being asimov, which isn't always true
The Paladin lawset (which basically was just "validhunt") was uploaded a lot when secborgs were around since it basically just let them kill the bad guys

[Dr_bee]

The secborg kit isnt a problem to me it is what players think secborgs are for. They see the name "security" and the red color-scheme and think validhunting is the purpose of the borg and not harm prevention. They think like sec officers first and borgs second when they need to think like borgs ONLY.

Using the example of the e-bow user above, The e-bow is clearly harmful, so that should be the target of your secborgy wrath, not the person using it. The person using it is a person you are supposed to be protecting if they are human.

so to solve the issue in a way that follows the laws best, I as a secborg would stun the person holding the e-bow, grab the e-bow with pull and drag it as far away from humans as possible, possibly to the armory.

law 1 followed, law 2 requests to stop removing the weapon can be ignored under law 1 reasons.

Trying to law 1 justify arresting someone you havent personally witnessed harm a human is shitty borg play, I dont know how to explain that to other borg players.

Secborgs need to be renamed and re-sprited, either merge them with PK borgs or name them protection borgs or something.

Your whole point relies on the borg being asimov, which isn't always true
The Paladin lawset (which basically was just "validhunt") was uploaded a lot when secborgs were around since it basically just let them kill the bad guys

Most of the complaints Ive seen have been about secborgs not following asimov laws, if people complain about the paladin lawset then that is whoever uploaded the laws fault, not the borg's.

uploading PALADIN is basically the non-antag equivalent to borg subversion.

[Incomptinence]

=
Haven't been playing anywhere near as much lately. I still love the game but I decided to take a semi-hiatus, I show up maybe once or twice a week. I think I've played a handful of rounds during the secborg test but haven't run into any by coincidence.

Not all bans are appealed so that's not really an accurate indicator, but that's kind of steering off topic.

Fair enough I play rarely these days too.

Yes I know it is not an accurate count, It is just what I have got and it gives a mild idea when compared to the volume of other ban appeals.

I assume they don't want to reveal the bans? Are they even tagged by role or the reason "silicon" if it's not a silicon ban but an entire ban? The most I imagine an admin would provide, are bans, their reasons made ambiguous and perhaps the lengths shown since I don't think anyone would be happy with their name up in lights in a policy discussion. I don't even know how this sits with this subforum's rule 3, a no no on discussing bans, players and admemes.

Forgive me for reading too deep but are you going after PKP on this? I am sorry if I'm seeing something that isn't there.

I just asked for a total over the course of a week, that's not a long period and the answer would just involve using basic counting to provide a number no details were ever requested.

Yes I am interested in Sawrge and Pkpenguin in particular.
I would find it mildly humorous that proponents for instating the ban and now in favour of keeping it may not have banned silicons in a test week when secborgs came back despite being admins themselves at the time.

It's also evidence against the claim security cyborgs are an administrative nightmare we cannot handle. Originally in the discussion of the ban, blame for not having so many silicon bans happen despite them being "terrible" was thrown on admins for being lazy and not enforcing silicon policy. If people who utterly despise borgs cannot rise to the challenge either well, maybe the argument of the ban has little evidence supporting and is mainly based on emotion.



On another note I am astonished the PALADIN lawset is still around. My first experience with it as AI was telling a borg to bring a guy in and it just beating him to death as punishment. Never really got better.

[cedarbridge]

The vast majority of the "woe is administration" in this thread is extrapolation from 1) one or more anecdotal instances where a dumb player did a dumb and did so while playing a secborg. 2) one of a dozen possible dumbs a dumb could do as a secborg (or any borg, really) and then insinuating that it happens all the time and needs to be stopped before it destroys the servers!

None of this is really a reason to remove the module but it makes it really easy to drum up panic.

[PKPenguin321]

The vast majority of the "woe is administration" in this thread is extrapolation from 1) one or more anecdotal instances where a dumb player did a dumb and did so while playing a secborg. 2) one of a dozen possible dumbs a dumb could do as a secborg (or any borg, really) and then insinuating that it happens all the time and needs to be stopped before it destroys the servers!

None of this is really a reason to remove the module but it makes it really easy to drum up panic.

Frankly secborgs on a fundamental level just aren't fun to play around, regardless of which side you're on (reminder i killed the whole station and hijacked two rounds in a row as traitor roboticist thanks to 1 or 2 emagged secborgs making me untouchable despite being sieged by all of security + HoS with the ion gun), the policy behind them isn't the only reason they were removed. You can go back and forth for days about how "but EMPs counter them!" and such, but nothing about them is rewarding or inherently fun aside from playing as them and getting easy valids. They're just detrimental for everybody involved on both a policy and gameplay level, with the exception given to whoever's playing as the secborg.

The only redeeming thing they could do off the top of my head was counter shitty security, but even they would often just get subverted whenever they tried this in my experience. I get that if you played secborg and had fun with it before then you might want it back, but the bigger picture here is that they just aren't good for the game. The fact that really only the secborg itself benefits (or rather, does not suffer a detriment) from it existing attracted players that took pride in making the game less enjoyable for others, which only worsened the situation (a secborg once arrested me for actually no reason and I managed to convince the RD to blow it, the guy in the MMI started cussing me out and saying OOC in IC shit about how he got me good and how he was laughing at how angry I got etc as I spaced him. I've heard other stories like these as well).

[Dr_bee]

The vast majority of the "woe is administration" in this thread is extrapolation from 1) one or more anecdotal instances where a dumb player did a dumb and did so while playing a secborg. 2) one of a dozen possible dumbs a dumb could do as a secborg (or any borg, really) and then insinuating that it happens all the time and needs to be stopped before it destroys the servers!

None of this is really a reason to remove the module but it makes it really easy to drum up panic.

Frankly secborgs on a fundamental level just aren't fun to play around, regardless of which side you're on (reminder i killed the whole station and hijacked two rounds in a row as traitor roboticist thanks to 1 or 2 emagged secborgs making me untouchable despite being sieged by all of security + HoS with the ion gun), the policy behind them isn't the only reason they were removed. You can go back and forth for days about how "but EMPs counter them!" and such, but nothing about them is rewarding or inherently fun aside from playing as them and getting easy valids. They're just detrimental for everybody involved on both a policy and gameplay level, with the exception given to whoever's playing as the secborg.

The only redeeming thing they could do off the top of my head was counter shitty security, but even they would often just get subverted whenever they tried this in my experience. I get that if you played secborg and had fun with it before then you might want it back, but the bigger picture here is that they just aren't good for the game. The fact that really only the secborg itself benefits (or rather, does not suffer a detriment) from it existing attracted players that took pride in making the game less enjoyable for others, which only worsened the situation (a secborg once arrested me for actually no reason and I managed to convince the RD to blow it, the guy in the MMI started cussing me out and saying OOC in IC shit about how he got me good and how he was laughing at how angry I got etc as I spaced him. I've heard other stories like these as well).

The plural of anecdote is not data. Plus most of the horror stories I hear are player behavior and culture problems, not problems with the secborg toolkit itself.

You killing the whole station with 3 players is more a damnation of the security during those rounds than a testament to how unfun secborgs are. They arent even as bad as they used to be, as they used to have insta-stun tazers and stun batons that took considerably less charge to use.

silicons as an entire department/section of the station have been under powered for awhile now, the fact that they can be a threat to other players is a feature, not a bug, it is why the AI upload is supposed to be important.

[PKPenguin321]

You've focused on only one point of my post.

[onleavedontatme]

Ultimately whatever we argue about balance and banning the right people from borg the job will always exist as a walking gun who is physically incapable of interacting with the game or other players except by attacking them and I think we'll always have the related balance/behavior problems because of that.

[Pascal125]

So what you're saying is.
"Remove all borgs we're too lazy to handle issues as they come up"?

[onleavedontatme]

Could you please quote the part where anyone in this thread said that?

[Arianya]

Ultimately whatever we argue about balance and banning the right people from borg the job will always exist as a walking gun who is physically incapable of interacting with the game or other players except by attacking them and I think we'll always have the related balance/behavior problems because of that.

Do you care to comment on the idea of taking the peacekeeper borg idea out of the shed then, since it doesn't have the associated baggage with being a walking gun?

At one time the only means PKborgs had to encourage crew to desist was a bola launcher and a human harm alarm, but even that was deemed "too close to secborgs" and the bola launcher removed.

Also, you've not once throughout this discussion, as a headmin, explained why its unenforceable as a player problem that is resolved via either general silicon bans or targeted secborg bans (though I'd argue anyone unable to follow the laws because they're a secborg equally can't do it as any other kind of silicon). If you explained this elsewhere, I apologize, but its a major point of contention and one that's extremely relevant, especially to Policy discussions

[oranges]

maybe theyr'e just sick of arguing about it after the first go round

[MrStonedOne]

I see every issue with secborgs as a symptom of a apathetic administration and a failure of the headmin team to fix that.

We have known shitstirers who can't anything seriously unless taking it seriously lets them derail the conversation (sawrge) not only on the admin team but fucking in charge of picking admins.

There is almost no level of consensus and unity because all the communication is split up, some of it happens in asay, some over discord, some over pm, some over steam convos, a very minor amount in adminbus, a very minor amount in the admin forums.

The same goes for the headmins.

I can't step in and fix it because it's not my job to fix it. I'd be able to maybe try and address this with the headmins but they stopped talking in any channels I'm in, it used to be every decision happened in a channel that had hadmins, me, cheriden, and all past headmins. It allowed for a greater flow of information, and it allowed for people to stay on the same page. Now almost none of the communication happens there, it all happens in either a headmin only channel that was once made behind my back, or some other means.

There used to be a much greater level of communication and consensus, but now adminbus is a ghost town filled up with joins and parts, leader bus is a ghost town containing mostly joins and parts.

and so now here we are. Where the solution to players breaking the rules isn't to get them to stop, its to remove the situation that allowed them to break the rules.

And that's just without addressing how boring a well balanced game actually is. wildcard moments that are the no warning equipment checks and other "bad balance" things kor hypes about are what create the wild swings of emotion that lead to both the stories of awesome, and the stories of failure.

[PKPenguin321]

Now this is starting to go off the topic of secborgs and more into how admins communicate. I'd like to say one thing even though it's not really related to the thread at hand:
Your bit about how the headmin channel was made behind your back is kind of true, but not much talking really goes on in there, at least it didn't for my term. It's mostly silent except for occasionally checking if another headmin agrees with something like a ban or statement. The only serious discussion there happened at the very start of the term when negotiating campaign promises.
I agree better communications would be good but I don't think the headmin channel is at fault.

Anyways most of my debate that's actually on topic is in this PR if anybody still cares to be on topic
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -344416640

[A3STH3T1CS]

Depressing ass shit about all the buses

Now this is starting to go off the topic of secborgs and more into how admins communicate.

But, don't you think that since MSO is saying what he personally has experienced and seen, shows a lot into how this is effecting the current thread's topic and possibly other issues into coderbus in general?

[captain sawrge]

Infinite ammo mobile guns that are nigh immune to most convention forms of combat aren't on the fun side of unbalanced

[onleavedontatme]

And that's just without addressing how boring a well balanced game actually is. wildcard moments that are the no warning equipment checks and other "bad balance" things kor hypes about are what create the wild swings of emotion that lead to both the stories of awesome, and the stories of failure.

There is "bad balance" that leads to wild moments, like the clowns banana peel being able to take out the fully armed and armoured syndicate commando or some lunatic scientist turning themselves into a black hole, and there is bad balance like the silicons being able to turn off the radio, flood plasma in every room, control every door, search for any mob on station, and then have the robot enforcers go room to room hosing everyone down with disabler fire. The latter doesn't lead to upsets and fun and zany stories, it leads to every single game mode being about whether captain uploaded the "kill all antags" law before the antagonist uploaded the "kill all security law."

Having so much power concentrated in a single faction isn't the kind of balance that leads to fun disorder, it is just its own stale order of the killbots methodically sweeping rooms round after round.

Also secborgs got removed over a year ago back in a time period when HG/shadowlight/myself would argue about dumb shit daily in the headmin channel so I don't know what the current state of adminbus has to do with this.

[onleavedontatme]

I dunno if I'm more sad about being accused of wanting boring balance when I've wasted years of my life arguing against it or being publicly thrown under the bus for not fighting enough in IRC about admins this last month because of a vote that happened with other people a year ago

[cedarbridge]

Infinite ammo mobile guns that are nigh immune to most convention forms of combat aren't on the fun side of unbalanced

Let us know when those get added to the game at any point. We're talking about secborgs here.

[cedarbridge]

Also secborgs got removed over a year ago back in a time period when HG/shadowlight/myself would argue about dumb shit daily in the headmin channel so I don't know what the current state of adminbus has to do with this.

The often trotted argument is that "secborgs are an administrative headache" when 1) they managed to be barely a blip on the radar during the week they were reenabled 2) It takes one admin with cursory understanding of policy to explain it to a borg player to resolve 3) it takes zero effort to apply a borg/AI ban for blatant/repeat offenders.

There is nothing about secborgs that produces an administrative issue other than, as MSO mentions, administrative apathy. It COULD present even a slight addition to the administration required in any given round so it cannot be allowed. I deal with more bullshit from clowns in any given round than I do from borgs. If administrative burden were grounds for feature removal, I've had PR'd out clowns years ago.

I've rambled for pages and pages to the point I could argue small novels about the balance and imbalance, subtle and lacking subtlety of secborgs and other silicons. Ultimately its still just going to come down to the regression to the mean. If something deviates from the assistant with gloves and a toolbelt there's immediately a recoil response from a large faction of players (with substantial overlap with the first group.)

Kor, control of the AI and its borgs will ALWAYS be a powerful option and something that has to be kept in mind because, ultimately, the AI is the station. The borgs are merely mobile hardware of that station. When you have an idiotic space opera set on a sentient space station, having control of that station is always going to be one of, if not THE, strongest strategic options open to anyone. With that said, the AI and its associate borgs should always be a faction apart from the station. They are bound to their laws and policy and only their laws and policy. They should be a point of struggle between the antagonists and the crew. The research director is a role that is specifically charged with maintaining the programming of the AI. They have upload and core access for a reason. The CE has hardware interest in the AI so they have telecomms and sat access.The heads have and should have an active role in the state of the AI. The crew has failsafe options against AI and borgs and basically always have. The console is a thing for a reason. Flashes and flashbangs are a thing for a reason. There is plenty of design room that accommodates secborgs and the game should embrace AI control as a dynamic struggle, not a binary choice.

[captain sawrge]

ok lets ignore the policy and everything on secborgs and remember every round having 4 unslippable undisarmable unpushable robocops go around arresting for every petty crime and valid hunting and their counterplay was a rare item found in like 3 spots all of which are typically secure enough few crew members will have them
lets remember the 20 minute malf rounds where you'd have 6 sec borgs systematically murdering every single person on the station because it takes like 4 people to kill one of them especially without flash or emp
lets remember ops instantly losing to secborgs constantly because conventional damage means nothing to them until they hit 0 hp

lets stop bikeshedding about the perfect way to run adminbus and remember how fuckign dreadful it was to play with secborgs unless you were the autistic validhunting minimodding shithead that ran to robotics every round to sign up for a built-in taser and immunity to knockdown

[cedarbridge]

ok lets ignore the policy and everything on secborgs and remember every round having 4 unslippable undisarmable unpushable robocops go around arresting for every petty crime and valid hunting and their counterplay was a rare item found in like 3 spots all of which are typically secure enough few crew members will have them
lets remember the 20 minute malf rounds where you'd have 6 sec borgs systematically murdering every single person on the station because it takes like 4 people to kill one of them especially without flash or emp
lets remember ops instantly losing to secborgs constantly because conventional damage means nothing to them until they hit 0 hp

lets stop bikeshedding about the perfect way to run adminbus and remember how fuckign dreadful it was to play with secborgs unless you were the autistic validhunting minimodding shithead that ran to robotics every round to sign up for a built-in taser and immunity to knockdown

Things that literally never happened.

[captain sawrge]

ok lets ignore the policy and everything on secborgs and remember every round having 4 unslippable undisarmable unpushable robocops go around arresting for every petty crime and valid hunting and their counterplay was a rare item found in like 3 spots all of which are typically secure enough few crew members will have them
lets remember the 20 minute malf rounds where you'd have 6 sec borgs systematically murdering every single person on the station because it takes like 4 people to kill one of them especially without flash or emp
lets remember ops instantly losing to secborgs constantly because conventional damage means nothing to them until they hit 0 hp

lets stop bikeshedding about the perfect way to run adminbus and remember how fuckign dreadful it was to play with secborgs unless you were the autistic validhunting minimodding shithead that ran to robotics every round to sign up for a built-in taser and immunity to knockdown

Things that literally never happened.

is this a serious reply

[captain sawrge]

fuck you you stupid cunt

[captain sawrge]

and fuck you mso for being a little baby fucking child and holding the code hostage because you have a fucking bee in your bonnet that kor didn't invite you to his birthday party you insufferable pussy

[cedarbridge]

ok lets ignore the policy and everything on secborgs and remember every round having 4 unslippable undisarmable unpushable robocops go around arresting for every petty crime and valid hunting and their counterplay was a rare item found in like 3 spots all of which are typically secure enough few crew members will have them
lets remember the 20 minute malf rounds where you'd have 6 sec borgs systematically murdering every single person on the station because it takes like 4 people to kill one of them especially without flash or emp
lets remember ops instantly losing to secborgs constantly because conventional damage means nothing to them until they hit 0 hp

lets stop bikeshedding about the perfect way to run adminbus and remember how fuckign dreadful it was to play with secborgs unless you were the autistic validhunting minimodding shithead that ran to robotics every round to sign up for a built-in taser and immunity to knockdown

Things that literally never happened.

is this a serious reply

It is. You've been running through every thread that mentions borgs and raining down vague stories about how literally everyone was a validhunting secborg that ruined everything for everyone. Its hyperbolic bullshit.

Fake edit: And every time I hit submit its another of your tantrums. Fuck off.

[A3STH3T1CS]

sec borgs wouldn't go around arresting for petty crimes if petty crimes weren't commited sawrge

also just because people call secborgs "walking guns with handcuffs" (they are) is just another way to avoid actual conversation to remove or debuff these things that some people want pretty bad.

why not a terrible disabler gun? why not decrease the stun-time for the NEW MINI STUN BATON
camera malfunctions at low health
wheels or legs won't function properly at low health
fire damage effecting borgs in a more harmful way

it isn't JUST sec borgs you know, an engineer borg could effectively murder the whole station unslaved. it would take longer and be more flashy but it can be done and all the same rules apply to it just like a sec borg.

[PKPenguin321]

ok lets ignore the policy and everything on secborgs and remember every round having 4 unslippable undisarmable unpushable robocops go around arresting for every petty crime and valid hunting and their counterplay was a rare item found in like 3 spots all of which are typically secure enough few crew members will have them
lets remember the 20 minute malf rounds where you'd have 6 sec borgs systematically murdering every single person on the station because it takes like 4 people to kill one of them especially without flash or emp
lets remember ops instantly losing to secborgs constantly because conventional damage means nothing to them until they hit 0 hp

lets stop bikeshedding about the perfect way to run adminbus and remember how fuckign dreadful it was to play with secborgs unless you were the autistic validhunting minimodding shithead that ran to robotics every round to sign up for a built-in taser and immunity to knockdown

Things that literally never happened.

They literally have happened. I don't understand how you could even say this unless you're joking.

[captain sawrge]

sec borgs wouldn't go around arresting for petty crimes if petty crimes weren't commited sawrge

ss13 but everyne follows the law and does their job would be the most boring fucking game ever conceived

[captain sawrge]

how many of you insanely stupid morons genuinely think if everyone follow the law the game would be better somehow, genuine question

[A3STH3T1CS]

how many of you insanely stupid morons genuinely think if everyone follow the law the game would be better somehow, genuine question

take it down a notch before you inadvertently do it in a fashion you'll regret

greytiding will always be an issue but bitching that you get locked up for them is something entirely different since sec is literally doing it's job

[oranges]

It is. You've been running through every thread that mentions borgs and raining down vague stories about how literally everyone was a validhunting secborg that ruined everything for everyone. Its hyperbolic bullshit.

Fake edit: And every time I hit submit its another of your tantrums. Fuck off.

your head must be so far up your own ass all you can see is the shit in your eyes, literally all of these things have happened, which is why the fucking things were disabled by HG in the first place

[oranges]

I see every issue with secborgs as a symptom of a apathetic administration and a failure of the headmin team to fix that.

You must be completely fucking blind if you can't see the obvious tension between the AI is an enforcer of Asimov and a limiter on the security/command staff from executing the entire crew and the robots who sole job is to validhunt antags, let alone the fact that they made the all seeing robot eye in the sky even more powerful with his legion of cyborg assholes who were nearly unstunnable and spaceworthy and could hose down an entire hallway with disabler shots before you even got close enough to hit them with an EMP stun.

They're literally so good that there is absolutely no reason to not borg the entire security force at round start and desync them from the AI and just have your legion of redcoloured tread borgs running about annihilating everything with all access and ability to lock and bolt doors from afar. They were also literally so good that it was basically the only worthy pick as a borg in malf, with maybe one stray engieborg for doing repairs. Hell, they used to be even more over powered because they didn't take fire damage. It's still way less damaging for borgs so you can set everything on fire and just zip about while you wait.

[onleavedontatme]

I've rambled for pages and pages to the point I could argue small novels

Same but daily about a dozen topics and then I got told I don't care about the game and don't communicate because I failed to have 100% of people agree with me and threatened with a ban if I enforced the headmin vote.

[oranges]

Mso should just call it what it is, he wants secborgs and he's willing to override the head admins (lol so much for being uninvolved), the design lead and the advice of senior maintainers because he apparently has a hardon for red borgs and no respect for the community even while he claims to not actually care and that he's uninvolved and making it out like he's fixing some big administration problem that he's going to swoop in and solve when actually all he's doing is making people not want to engage with him.

Lord knows how he intends to somehow make the administration "magically" able to administer secborgs when they clearly don't want to and never did want to, maybe he intends to pay them to do so or cast some magic spell that will make them suddenly want to deal with it. Or maybe he hopes that if he just leaves them enabled long enough it will magically happen, if so, I have a few scams to sell him.

He's not going to address the underlying unresolvable conflict of a borg with asimov lawset that is supposed to RP them yet has a loadout solely designed to validhunt antags and criminals because that's actually the root cause of why secborgs were removed but he's going to pretend like it was papering over some administrative crack or something, rather than removing something that was continually causing trouble because of how it was never internally consistent with how the mob was designed and how it's intended to be played via policy. The secborg has been in conflict with it's own existence since it was created.

Like I know what we'll do, lets create a borg that is really good at building and then add a law that building is not allowed in most circumstances, because that totally won't cause a whole bunch of trouble. Wow that reminds me of drones, suprise suprise, they're also shit and constantly violating their own policy because their primary purpose/ruling is at odds with the fucking gameplay of the mob

[Anonmare]

why not a terrible disabler gun? why not decrease the stun-time for the NEW MINI STUN BATON

I literally opened a PR for this and it go closed because everyone's minds were already made up about removing them at the end of the week

[onleavedontatme]

We tried "secborg but we nerf it over and over" that is what eggborg is.

[oranges]

why not a terrible disabler gun? why not decrease the stun-time for the NEW MINI STUN BATON

I literally opened a PR for this and it go closed because everyone's minds were already made up about removing them at the end of the week

nerfing them to be the exact equivalent of a sec officer does not solve the conflict between Asimov rules and how people should RP them and a borg soley designed around being a valid hunter against antags and criminals.

You notice how in I-robot all the police officers were human?

[iamgoofball]

ok lets ignore the policy and everything on secborgs and remember every round having 4 unslippable undisarmable unpushable robocops go around arresting for every petty crime and valid hunting and their counterplay was a rare item found in like 3 spots all of which are typically secure enough few crew members will have them
lets remember the 20 minute malf rounds where you'd have 6 sec borgs systematically murdering every single person on the station because it takes like 4 people to kill one of them especially without flash or emp
lets remember ops instantly losing to secborgs constantly because conventional damage means nothing to them until they hit 0 hp

lets stop bikeshedding about the perfect way to run adminbus and remember how fuckign dreadful it was to play with secborgs unless you were the autistic validhunting minimodding shithead that ran to robotics every round to sign up for a built-in taser and immunity to knockdown

Things that literally never happened.

They literally have happened. I don't understand how you could even say this unless you're joking.

These have happened

[Anonmare]

I genuinely never saw or felt the effects of any secborg nerf PRs in my two years of playing. My PR would have reduced the disabler's (and the emagged laser) firing speed to as slow/slower than a swarmer's disabler and swapped the stunbaton for a telescopic one, making it very hard for a secborg to handle more than one combatant and forced you to be careful with your shots

[Dr_bee]

We tried "secborg but we nerf it over and over" that is what eggborg is.

Eggborg is a meme trap and you know it, dont try to act like it was meant to replace secborg, because it wasn't and it cant.

There are numerous small measured steps that can be taken to try to communicate to the player what the borgs are for but no one wants to take them.

Is it that hard to admit that maybe, just maybe, you went to far and unbalanced the role of silicons had in the game by removing their primary method of preventing human harm outside of insults and door bolting and then choosing to replace it with a giant middle finger to an entire third of the games original intended game dynamic.

Single antagonists are not supposed to be all powerful murder fuckers impervious to all threats, there need to be real threats that if ignored can cause failure.

Removing the ability for the AI and silicons to act as a middle group between security and antagonist just leads to unchecked extremes like murder-boning and Gestapo sec. Any rebuttal about players not understanding what secborg is supposed to be used for should be solved via communicating the purpose of the module to the player more effectively and proper enforcement of silicon policy, not throwing the games balance into a fucking gibber by removing what was the only reliable way the AI had to be effective outside of door bolting and screaming.

[oranges]

Is it that hard to admit that maybe, just maybe, you went to far and unbalanced the role of silicons had in the game by removing their primary method of preventing human harm outside of insults and door bolting and then choosing to replace it with a giant middle finger to an entire third of the games original intended game dynamic.

it's funny to see a player who joined in 2013 tell someone who has been around since forever what the games "intended dynamic" is

[oranges]

It's not resolved, because the host continues to readd secborgs and claiming it's something to do with the administration and nothing to do with secborgs despite that being the dumbest thing I've ever heard come out of anyone's mouth

maybe I'll code and add a MLP race and just claim I'm doing it to revitalise the administration so they talk in IRC, it'd be about the same level of retardation