Disallow admins to make secborgs & remove them from config.

FrozenGuy5 · Post by **FrozenGuy5** » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:33 pm #355387

Bottom post of the previous page:

Title.

They were removed. They still should be removed. They are still overpowered. Also, who even asked for them?

btw arm enabled them

yes, this is an i ded.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:52 pm #355971

I told that Frog to change his name to keep this from happening

Incomptinence · Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:22 am

My bad on that count.

Post by **Armhulen** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:53 am #355998

Why should I have to change my name?

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:58 am #356000

Armhulen wrote:Why should I have to change my name?

I'm older than you young newt

Post by **Armhulen** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:03 am #356001

Anonmare wrote:
Armhulen wrote:Why should I have to change my name?
I'm older than you young newt

But my name is Norwegian, and that's really neat.

ShadowDimentio · Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:18 am

Armhulen wrote:it was for a headmin promise, i hope these things get removed. it was kind of fun seeing that even though flashes stun now nobody carries them. Unrobust!

Borgs are hilariously easy to kill if you have a flash, and flashes are very common if you bother looking at all. The other day I killed 2 syndie medborgs and 2 syndie assaultborgs with just a flash and saw. People are really shit man.

onleavedontatme · Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:20 am

People are really shit man.

The people with the infinite ammo guns are pretty shit if they let you melee them, that is true.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:22 am #356029

EMPs are still hilariously effective considering, if RNG cooperates, you can lockdown a cyborg with an EMP and it's completely fucked if the robo console is gone

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:11 am #356072

The inclusion of secborgs has been pretty good in my opinion, barring some cases of shitty borgs.

Having borgs and the AI be an actual threat means that EMP sources are now more valuable and the fact they are immune to conventional stuns means the hybrid taser is no longer the end all be all of combat.

Also it increases the value of the flash, giving revs another metabreaker.

I know many coders dont like secborgs for some reason but their existence is overall better for the game than their absence.

We need to encourage the playerbase to adminhelp shitty borgs more often. And possibly we should lock the module behind silicon time played if at all possible. Secborgs are fun for experienced silicon players, but ones that dont understand how laws work ruin a good thing for everyone.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:22 am #356080

Sorry if someone already said this but it's natural that players are going to have to take some re-training to get used to secborg/sillycon/asimov policy considering we haven't had them for ages and many players may have never seen them at all

Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:49 am

bandit wrote:Sorry if someone already said this but it's natural that players are going to have to take some re-training to get used to secborg/sillycon/asimov policy considering we haven't had them for ages and many players may have never seen them at all

I disagree considering how frequent policy was broken when we had secborgs on all the time

Edit: Although I'm certain what you said does factor into it for the newer players

Incomptinence · Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:14 am

Why is breaking silicon policy worse than breaking regular server rules which people do all the time?

I mean it is easier to spot usually but other than that.

Kor wrote:
People are really shit man.
The people with the infinite ammo guns are pretty shit if they let you melee them, that is true.

^I repeat this man shot down a nerf to secborg disabler spam^

It shouldn't be acceptable in wizard events etc if you think it's borderline unbeatable.

ShadowDimentio · Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:18 am

Incomptinence wrote:Why is breaking silicon policy worse than breaking regular server rules which people do all the time?

The problem is, silicon policy is infinitely more strict than the server rules

If a crewguy sees some guy getting beaten up outside their room, whatever not my problem, while if a borg sees some guy getting beaten up outside their room, they HAVE to intervene.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:41 am #356116

Law 2 heml

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:23 am #356125

CosmicScientist wrote:.

None of this has any direct context to the thread. Its just you bitching about how you hate borgs. This is a secborg thread.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

wow cosmic went full autism there

"oh no I have to consider/avoid/dedicate effort one of the most important roles on the station before I whip out my e-penis and start murdering people in the hallways if I dont want there to be a chance it spots me"

edit: Also I'm pretty sure that emping the AI as a ventmonkey shuts off its APC, muting it from everything but binary. then just hop out of the vent because the turrets are off, open the depowered windoor, card the AI with one of the three roundstart intellicards/a card printed from R&D, and wipe it. there, most fortified and protected role on the entire station dead with basically no risk.

Post by **Cobby** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:34 pm #356182

You can't carry things with you when you vc as a monkey

WarbossLincoln · Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:40 pm

Question: Is it possible to ban someone from a specific cyborg modules like a job ban? If not, why not?

If you had the ability to job ban someone just from sec borg then you could police sec borgs more harshly than other borgs. I know in general bogs get some leeway for their laws if it looks like they were acting in good faith and trying. If you could just ban them from sec borg you could keep over zealous people from abusing sec borg who ordinarily could play regular borgs just fine.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:57 pm #356211

If people won't follow silicon law as secborgs then they won't follow it as normal borgs

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:55 pm #356227

Lazengann wrote:If people won't follow silicon law as secborgs then they won't follow it as normal borgs

This. Shitty secborgs are shitty every other kind of borg too.

Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:27 pm

cedarbridge wrote:
Lazengann wrote:If people won't follow silicon law as secborgs then they won't follow it as normal borgs
This. Shitty secborgs are shitty every other kind of borg too.

Yes, so only having the other roles minimizes the impact of their shittyness.

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:30 pm #356264

Going through that wall of text was a tad daunting so forgive me if I missed any points.

One reason why I enjoy secborgs being reintroduced via admins is it gives gestapo sec something to fear, as the PK borg was functionally useless at stopping sec from murdering. Since secborgs were reintroduced I have seen security be considerably more careful of the use of deadly force during conversion rounds.

Secborgs are probably an imperfect solution to giving the silicons actual harm prevention tools, but it is better than no solution at all. Which was the case because of a coder culture problem of trying to keep the PK borg as a joke module despite the various problems a lack of silicon power causes.

If the PK borg had actual tools to stop harm and not scream impotently, and could stay a threat to gestapo sec, I would love to have them instead of secborgs.

But the coders dont want to do it, for very flimsy reasons from what I read on git.

On the subject of sec borgs "only valid hunting," that is the point of security play. It is like complaining that security officers are valid hunting. It is literally the purpose of the module/job. Valid hunting by other jobs frankly should be more discouraged, but on /tg/ it most likely wont ever happen. But complaining secborgs are going around trying to stop human harm is like complaining engineers going around fixing things.

I still think that making secborgs use the PK model and have their tools might make them act differently. Plus it would let secborgs run around giving out cookies and hugs when they arent stopping harm.

feem · Post by **feem** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:05 pm #356276

Y'all weren't complaining that they existed in the code when they were disabled by config option for a couple years.

Since they're going back to being disabled by config option after this week, I'm still not sure why y'all are complaining that they're in the code.

They serve a purpose from time to time and when disabled, it takes understanding how to call the proc on them to badmin them into existence (aside from wiz antics).

I see no problem with them remaining in the codebase so long as they're disabled by default.

If you're especially annoyed and butthurt then remove the ability to configure them from the .txt and make them manual-only.

But as a badmin, there are definitely reasons to keep the module in, and I can see them (or at least their items) becoming useful in a future malf-y or contraband technology situation anyway.

Stop bitching that you ded when something that'd been disabled for a long time is turned back on _with absolute intent for it to be temporary_. This is indistinguishable from a thread complaining that there are Halloween, Christmas, or April Fool's events. Which, you know, those threads happen too, but they're also stupid.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:18 am #356331

PKPenguin321 wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Lazengann wrote:If people won't follow silicon law as secborgs then they won't follow it as normal borgs
This. Shitty secborgs are shitty every other kind of borg too.
Yes, so only having the other roles minimizes the impact of their shittyness.

Alternatively, cone-ban them.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:31 am

If that worked it would have been done

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:22 am #356423

>players are dumb with thing
>lets remove the thing then
>gee whiz, the dumb players are still dumb with other things, better remove more things

obscolene · Post by **obscolene** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:34 am #356424

cedarbridge wrote:>players are dumb with thing
>lets remove the thing then
>gee whiz, the dumb players are still dumb with other things, better remove more things

>a feature gets implimented that makes everyone spawn with an instagib gun
>players are dumb with thing
>lets remove the thing then
>people complain about removing the thing instead of the players
my face when

!

ShadowDimentio · Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42 am

See here's the problem with people that hate secborgs, secborgs aren't //THAT// good, but by MSO's beard they'll talk about them like every secborg is a walking deathsquaddie.

I'll give you that they're good. I'll give you that yeah they probably aren't the best at following their laws (because it's pretty damn unclear where the lines are), but jesus christ they aren't the paragons of destruction and validhunting that people constantly make them out to be. If nothing else, they have a LITERAL KILLSWITCH that all you have to do is press a button to activate.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:46 am #356429

obscolene wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:>players are dumb with thing
>lets remove the thing then
>gee whiz, the dumb players are still dumb with other things, better remove more things
>a feature gets implimented that makes everyone spawn with an instagib gun
>players are dumb with thing
>lets remove the thing then
>people complain about removing the thing instead of the players
my face when !

Its almost like your restyling of my argument is a total strawman. Par for the course I guess!

obscolene · Post by **obscolene** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:58 am #356439

cedarbridge wrote:
obscolene wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:>players are dumb with thing
>lets remove the thing then
>gee whiz, the dumb players are still dumb with other things, better remove more things
>a feature gets implimented that makes everyone spawn with an instagib gun
>players are dumb with thing
>lets remove the thing then
>people complain about removing the thing instead of the players
my face when !
Its almost like your restyling of my argument is a total strawman. Par for the course I guess!

you specifying the subject as "thing" allows it to be replaced with anything, not strawmanning

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:05 am #356440

No that was strawmanning, it completely misrepresented what he was trying to get at in favour of conveying his argument specifically for secborgs as a blanket statement.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:01 am #356452

once again people who stopped playing for months coming back to fuck around on forums and be dumb and strawman things sigh step away..

captain sawrge · Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:22 pm

Secborgs are bad and will not be coming back permanently. Hope this helps to all people still currently posting ITT.

Incomptinence · Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:17 pm

I would really like to see a simple total of silicon bans during the test and a total of bans overall for same period.

Since the spin is always silicon policy breakin every round those silicon players are simply keraazy!

I mean how do we even have anyone left playing borg at all? It really boggles my noggle.

killerx09 · Post by **killerx09** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:37 pm #356484

As someone from a downstream server, please do not remove them from the code. Other communities do enable, utilise and adapt to the secborg.

killerx09 · Post by **killerx09** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:37 pm #356485

As someone from a downstream server, please do not remove them from the code. Other communities do enable, utilise and adapt to the secborg.

Post by **Cobby** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:54 pm #356490

Incomptinence wrote:I would really like to see a simple total of silicon bans during the test and a total of bans overall for same period.

Since the spin is always silicon policy breakin every round those silicon players are simply keraazy!

I mean how do we even have anyone left playing borg at all? It really boggles my noggle.

From the rounds I've adminned I've had 0 ahelps regarding secborgs at all in any flavor.

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:33 pm #356493

ExcessiveJMadison wrote:
Incomptinence wrote:I would really like to see a simple total of silicon bans during the test and a total of bans overall for same period.

Since the spin is always silicon policy breakin every round those silicon players are simply keraazy!

I mean how do we even have anyone left playing borg at all? It really boggles my noggle.
From the rounds I've adminned I've had 0 ahelps regarding secborgs at all in any flavor.

Yeah ive seen alot of complaining about them, but it makes sense that people dont adminhelp. Consider making an announcement recommending admin-helping bad borgs? Changing the culture of not adminhelping would help the server overall.

cedarbridge · Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:07 pm

I've handled one case of a bad secborg and that was a genuinely new player who had never even seen the module before and had only the bare minimum time requirement to access borg roles.

obscolene · Post by **obscolene** » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:13 pm #356592

killerx09 wrote:As someone from a downstream server, please do not remove them from the code. Other communities do enable, utilise and adapt to the secborg.

Just don't merge the removal ? ? I don't see the problem here.

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:36 am #356639

cedarbridge wrote:I've handled one case of a bad secborg and that was a genuinely new player who had never even seen the module before and had only the bare minimum time requirement to access borg roles.

Which is why the earlier suggestion to lock secborg behind x mount of hours of silicon play is probably a good idea

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:31 am

cedarbridge wrote:
obscolene wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:>players are dumb with thing
>lets remove the thing then
>gee whiz, the dumb players are still dumb with other things, better remove more things
>a feature gets implimented that makes everyone spawn with an instagib gun
>players are dumb with thing
>lets remove the thing then
>people complain about removing the thing instead of the players
my face when !
Its almost like your restyling of my argument is a total strawman. Par for the course I guess!

Less of a strawman than an exaggeration to make an analogy clear

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:44 am #356740

less of an exaggeration to make an analogy clear than a strawman

Incomptinence · Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:46 am

Hey pkp you were always big on how silicons are terrible rule breakers to a can and admins never enforced policy on them.

Now you are an admin where are the scalps?

Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:14 am

Incomptinence wrote:Hey pkp you were always big on how silicons are terrible rule breakers to a can and admins never enforced policy on them.

Now you are an admin where are the scalps?

Secborgs died long before I became and admin and were the only ones that really broke rules consistently
I do indeed hand out silicon bans when they're warranted

Incomptinence · Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:41 am

Ah just thought you might chalk up a few in secborg week in particular for some reason.

I did look through ban appeals after making that post but I only found one silicon ban appeal to your name.

feem · Post by **feem** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:42 pm #357024

CosmicScientist wrote:Ban appeals are not representative of bans.

very true:

number of feemjmeem ban appeals: 4
number of feemjmeem bans: 212 (this includes duplicates across multiple job types, perma, and temp bans)

duncathan · Post by **duncathan** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:00 pm #357157

killerx09 wrote:As someone from a downstream server, please do not remove them from the code. Other communities do enable, utilise and adapt to the secborg.

Hi there, I promise that no matter the verdict the module will stay defined in the code. We may remove the config option from upstream but if you wish to restore it downstream feel free to ask for help and I will be happy to assist, unless you guys can manage it yourselves.

Supermichael777 · Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:50 pm

Based on my experience in arguments over mining and mechs I believe I have pinpointed the EXACT REASON these are so hated.

Their power is not gated by ROUND LENGTH and EFFORT. Clearly a system should be added where they are slowly rewarded for the percentage of humans that remain unharmed slowly building up abilities until they can solo the harmful Durands wandering around.

Post by **Armhulen** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:52 pm #357170

Did you just use a time gate to balance something?

Calling all goofballs!

onleavedontatme · Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:32 pm

Time gating is perfectly valid in a time limited/roundbased game