Is it time for an assistant cap again?

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Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by onleavedontatme » #358650

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I see latejoin screens like this pretty regularly on basil
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by DrPillzRedux » #358656

>38 minutes into a round
>pick HoP, HoS, RD, CMO, warden, or sec and probably get buttfucked because sec is already obliterated by revs/cult/taitors/etc
>pick medical doctor and get ignored anyway because medbay will be broken into
>pick engineer and see how fucked the station is structure wise, then go wait for the shuttle to be called
>or pick assistant and just have fun being a nobody

All you're going to do is force people back into jobs they don't want and braindead people in the halls will become more frequent.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by cedarbridge » #358657

Is it going to accomplish anything other than taking job slots and turning them into colored assistants? If somebody's going to fuck around they're going to fuck around. We don't have a policy that enforces non-head roles dereliction.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Pascal125 » #358660

I once saw 30-40 Assistants. Not joking.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Bawhoppennn » #358662

As I've said before, our problems could be solved with enforced longer rounds to make actions meaningful again, so people will play and actually do their jobs. Engineer is the most grievous offender of not being able to meaningfully do anything in short rounds.

(Also people need to take a step back and look at the concept of longer rounds from a different perspective, instead of our current one.)
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by imblyings » #358665

A cap will fix it but won't fix why.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by EagleWiz » #358667

One of the reasons people pretend to believe assistants have a purpose is that its a safe pick for new players (safe in that assistants aren't expected to do things or know how to play ss13)
An assistant cap would make it harder for people to play assistant when the servers are very full.
The servers are very full when there is an influx of new people.
An assistant cap would make it harder for new people to play the job that's for new people in the situation of there being a bunch of new people.
The real issue is the large number of people who do actually know how to play ss13 and still pick assistant because its easier to get valids/greytide/you're not expected to do anything

The at-least-partial solution to this problem is to remove maint access from assistants. The new player does not care about maint access, they might not even know about maint access, and there is a decent chance they get lost or murdered when they use maint access.

Maint access makes it easy for the antag to sneak into your workplace and murder you. Maint access allows the greytide to evade security, hack, and steal. Maint access helps the validhunter find the antags using their maint access. Maint access gives the perma-assistant who constantly commits "IC issue crime" a place to set up shop with the chem machine he stole.

This wont solve all of the problem, but it will make assistant a less attractive job for the sort of people that are the real issue here.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Bawhoppennn » #358671

@EagleWiz
We already removed maint access and it just lead to more greytiding anyways. We ultimately need to incentivize people to not WANT to be assistants, and actually play as jobs.

Of course if we keep gearing the game around the idea of quick 30 minute deathmatchs, this will never happen.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by kevinz000 » #358686

as much as I'd love people actually being in jobs, I do believe some people will simply start tiding in actually important jobs, which is why Im' against assistant caps.
If only it'd solve things...
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by CPTANT » #358711

I thought this was going to be about an assistant captain role.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Rustledjimm » #358712

I have to agree with Kev here. I'd love it if people actually did their jobs if they were forced to choose them because assistant was capped.

But that won't happen, they'll just pick a shiny job with more access and equipment and then go tiding anyway. Perhaps we could implement this with stronger tiding regulations/rules, which I wouldn't mind but I know some people don't want to touch tiding rules with a bargpole.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Dax Dupont » #358725

Just crack down more on greytiding and the problem will solve itself.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Rustledjimm » #358729

AdAstraPerAspera wrote:Just crack down more on greytiding and the problem will solve itself.

I mean I agree but as has been said before we can't have half the admins cracking down more and half not. A decision like that has to be agreed upon by adminbus in general.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Nilons » #358738

Take away the grey shirts antag roll and make it punishable Icly if they decide to just greytide.

>Engineer is just breaking windows and won't do his job
>Then strip him of his Id and equipment and throw him in the hall

I thought the only reason greytiding was acceptable for assistants is because they have nothing better to do on top of the IC conflict it creates which is fun
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Saegrimr » #358743

AdAstraPerAspera wrote:Just crack down more on greytiding and the problem will solve itself.
Tried that once, people flipped their shit.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Atlanta-Ned » #358751

Department objectives. Or stats shown on the round end screen. Give folks something to work towards other than self-gratification or some nebulous station goal.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by cedarbridge » #358754

Atlanta-Ned wrote:Department objectives. Or stats shown on the round end screen. Give folks something to work towards other than self-gratification or some nebulous station goal.
Working on that already!
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by J_Madison » #358755

How about a persistent reward system?
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Takeguru » #358760

no
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Cobby » #358776

J_Madison wrote:How about a persistent reward system?
only if cosmetic sans the "they have less pixels so they're at a tactical advantage" meme.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Atlanta-Ned » #358778

J_Madison wrote:How about a persistent reward system?
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by onleavedontatme » #358781

I don't think every single person who chooses assistant will have done so if they didn't see a big "16 assistants no security" message when they tried to join. In the round I screencapped I joined as HoS and within a couple minutes another officer and the HoP had joined up (I realize that could just be coincidence, but I know I'm personally more willing to play sec if there is already sec)

I enjoy playing heads and sec and I'll still just give up and pick assistant when I see no jobs full. Unlimited assistants just lets it snowball to the point where the other jobs look unattractive.

So maybe the first guy forced into engineer will just hang around the bar or go maint gardening anyway but at least the join screen won't look so bad.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by TribeOfBeavers » #358783

Could removing the numbers showing how many people have picked a job/the lobby crew manifest help with that?

Obviously it wouldn't matter with heads, as if you can join as one there can't already be someone playing it. But people wouldn't play assistant because there aren't any sec officers or whatever, as they wouldn't know. It would make using the HoPs job priority thing more important too.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by J_Madison » #358784

ExcessiveJMadison wrote:
J_Madison wrote:How about a persistent reward system?
only if cosmetic sans the "they have less pixels so they're at a tactical advantage" meme.
Successful traitor: 5 points.
Successful changeling: 3 points.
Successful Nukeop: 5 points.
Successful warop: 10 points.
Wizard successful (no use of events): 10 points.
Antag loss: 2 points to all sec and living crew.

Stay alive on shuttle as head role: 3 points.
Stay alive on shuttle as department: 2 points.
Stay alive on shuttle as assistant: 1 point.
Complete station objective: 2 points to everyone alive on shuttle.
Research disk on shuttle bonus points to science.
Unique plants on shuttle bonus to botany.
Unique drinks on shuttile bonus to bartender.
Unique food on shuttle bonus to chef.
Antag alive on shuttle brig bonus to sec.

Ect ect


Here are the following rewards: work in progress
20 points - play as a warrior monk; non antag role, has access to a staff, answers and defends the chaplain.
50 points - veteran sec; play as a veteran sec officer. Spawns with bonus kit.
250 points - ALL ASSISTANT; enjoy this high price game mode. Everyone spawns as assistant. The more high value items you have at the end of the round the bigger your reward.
350 points - ALL CAPTAIN; enjoy this no privacy game mode. Everyone starts as captain.

40 points - call shuttle. Everyone dead? No ID? Sacrifice 40 points to call the shuttle.
30 points - respawn. No metagaming.
15 points - priority to job roles.
100 points - 2 rolls to antag.
90 points - 2 rollsl to team or solo antag.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by J_Madison » #358788

The goal is to keep the GBP (gross bonus points, aka average points per player) to around the 20-35 point average by incentivising spending and sinking points and time, whilst offering incestives for point whales to spend theirs.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Ayy Lemoh » #358790

J_Madison wrote: 250 points - ALL ASSISTANT; enjoy this high price game mode. Everyone spawns as assistant. The more high value items you have at the end of the round the bigger your reward.
350 points - ALL CAPTAIN; enjoy this no privacy game mode. Everyone starts as captain.
30 points - respawn. No metagaming.
15 points - priority to job roles.
100 points - 2 rolls to antag.
90 points - 2 rollsl to team or solo antag.
These are bad or just plain horrible ideas, to be honest. I liked everything else but these. ALL _____ rounds are fucking nightmares. Just because I sometimes wish there was an All Abductor round doesn't mean I think it's a good idea, especially if someone saving points becomes autistic enough to use it.

Respawn should be, if we were somehow forced to add it instead of just removing it, cranked up to like 200 or something. Even if you say you don't metagame, you basically know what to expect when you respawn as a job like the HoS or security officer because John John killed you as traitor.

Job role priority just seems eh.

Isn't "2 rolls to antag" and "2 rolls to team or solo antag" the same? Eitherway, that shit should be cranked up or not be thought of at all.

A point reward system would be best for gimmicks like Warrior Monk or Veteran Sec Officer. Not for a fucking ALL HEAD OF SECURITY ROUND, BOYS!
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by BeeSting12 » #358799

I liked the infinite roundstart assistants and 5 assistants/security officer system.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by J_Madison » #358802

I admit those were some really far out there ideas, but as a matter of joke and potential for fun rounds I think people will play 40+ rounds (averaging 5 pts every round best conditions) just to meme force it.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by kevinz000 » #358804

Sec office ris the most enjoyable job.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by SpaceInaba » #358827

detective is the most enjoyable when there's actually cases to solve
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Massa100 » #358865

Rustledjimm wrote:
AdAstraPerAspera wrote:Just crack down more on greytiding and the problem will solve itself.

I mean I agree but as has been said before we can't have half the admins cracking down more and half not. A decision like that has to be agreed upon by adminbus in general.
I think greytiding would be less severe if the staff also cracked down on security. :heart:

They have very shitty habits, including theft, and very few limitations. From what I've gathered, they're red assistants with a boner for power. I know one of the reasons I get so rowdy is usually because security won't fuck off or stop overstepping. :donut2:

The other reason assistants are so common is because other jobs suck dick. Medical gets broken into, science gets traitored 20 ways to fucked, security gets tided (and it's not fun even if it's not tided) and engineering is jack shit.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Anonmare » #358868

Make being an assistant valid to kill on sight but assistants aren't allowed to fight back if they're not antags.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Massa100 » #358891

Anonmare wrote:Make being an assistant valid to kill on sight but assistants aren't allowed to fight back if they're not antags.
this idea is simply flawless and not retarded in any capacity and will be beneficial for the longevity of SS13 and tgstation

headmin stand down this man knows what is best
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by EagleWiz » #358904

Start all assistants with chemical implants so that sec can quickly deal with the trouble makers.
I'm only partly joking.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by PKPenguin321 » #358905

I say we move the assistant spawn areas all back to primary tool storage so people can get a feel for what actual greytide looks like then turn it off after a week so they shut their whiny mouths
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Dr_bee » #358911

TribeOfBeavers wrote:Could removing the numbers showing how many people have picked a job/the lobby crew manifest help with that?

Obviously it wouldn't matter with heads, as if you can join as one there can't already be someone playing it. But people wouldn't play assistant because there aren't any sec officers or whatever, as they wouldn't know. It would make using the HoPs job priority thing more important too.
I think this is the best solution. I dislike hiding information from players but removing the information of the assitant/other-job ratios would remove the incentive to join the assistant side when it is unbalanced towards them.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by EagleWiz » #358918

PKPenguin321 wrote:I say we move the assistant spawn areas all back to primary tool storage so people can get a feel for what actual greytide looks like then turn it off after a week so they shut their whiny mouths
So, 3 security on highpop, all of whom are regular officers and probably only one of whom is even remotely robust, and a lack of Heads of Staff isn't a symptom of any sort of problem at all? Just to clarify
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by kevinz000 » #358952

PKPenguin321 wrote:I say we move the assistant spawn areas all back to primary tool storage so people can get a feel for what actual greytide looks like then turn it off after a week so they shut their whiny mouths
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Rustledjimm » #359016

>Back in my day I had to get up in the morning at 10 o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work 29 hours a day down the mill and pay the mill owner for permission to come to work and when we got home our dad would kill us and dance about on our graves and sing hallelujah
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Limski » #359069

No.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by cedarbridge » #359130

I think greytiding would be less severe if the staff also cracked down on assistants. :heart:

They have very shitty habits, including theft, and very few limitations. From what I've gathered, they're grey security without responsibility. I know one of the reasons I get so rowdy is usually because greyshirts won't fuck off or stop overstepping. :donut2:
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by cedarbridge » #359131

Massa100 wrote:Medical gets broken into,

security gets tided (and it's not fun even if it's not tided)
Broken into? By whom?

Tided? By whom?
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Qbopper » #359146

cedarbridge wrote:
Massa100 wrote:Medical gets broken into, )
Broken into? By whom?
literally every piece of fucking shit who can't comprehend that if they stand on a sleeper for 4 picoseconds they can get a full heal right away instead of breaking into medbay storage and stealing the only medical supplies we have for when shit gets fucked because the chemists aren't making fucking medical chems
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by cedarbridge » #359151

Qbopper wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Massa100 wrote:Medical gets broken into, )
Broken into? By whom?
literally every piece of fucking shit who can't comprehend that if they stand on a sleeper for 4 picoseconds they can get a full heal right away instead of breaking into medbay storage and stealing the only medical supplies we have for when shit gets fucked because the chemists aren't making fucking medical chems
That's my point though. The job isn't shit because the job is shit. The job is made shit by shitty players breaking into everything and running off with everything their sticky fingers can grab. And then turning around to whine that greytiding makes other roles unfun.
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Anonmare » #359166

I put the first aid kits in the lockers and bolt the lockers down tbh

Talk like a Human being, not a mindless autist. I know it's difficult for most of you but you can at least make an attempt
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by EagleWiz » #359320

cedarbridge wrote: They have very shitty habits, including theft, and very few limitations. From what I've gathered, they're grey security without responsibility. I know one of the reasons I get so rowdy is usually because greyshirts won't fuck off or stop overstepping. :donut2:
This isnt the only issue - Security players have to adhere to a higher standard of behavior, or they face admin action. Security players don't break into chem to steal dispensers so they can make a bunch of slip bombs, Security players wont push people over in the halls to steal whatever [legal] items they are holding. Security players dont [outside of when things go very wrong] conspire to steal all access from the HoP/Captain and distribute it to the entire force. Greytiders do this sort of thing on the regular, and its totally acceptable because of ...reasons.
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ShadowDimentio
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 3:15 am
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by ShadowDimentio » #359322

This is not only a fix to a non-issue, it's a fix to a non-issue that doesn't fix shit. Do you seriously want back to the days where the greytiders forced out of assistant due to the cap instead roll actual jobs but just tide it up all round as colored greyshirts?
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Karp
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:54 am
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Karp » #359327

People complained about people greytiding on other roles like sec, and people going braindead with their spawn taser which others used as free weaponry. Now it reverses, hilariously.
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Gamarr
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:10 pm
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by Gamarr » #361855

Symptom of a massive problem and putting greyback cap is like putting a band-aid on your cut artery. Its part of a fundamental PROBLEM.
Nothing matters because every round goes fast.
Team modes? Completely at cross-purposes of having a round that doesn't degrade into shit. Nuke ops? Oh, you know what to do. Revs? Shit gonna hit the fan since subtlety doesnt matter and flashing spreads like a disease. Clockcult? Clockcult.
The mechanics are the opposite of what you want for a longer round. There are tons of cool toys and gadgets in the code that almost never see utilization. There are 'tried and true' combat methods because it is so shallow and its the path of least resistance.
Your code is wonderful here, there are so many neat tools, toys, and gadgets, from legit R&D to the traitor stuff.

Except the servers revolve around combat and the one thing they seem to incentive is how to be an even bigger shithead, faster, than the next guy. You reward bad behaviour. People saying 'it's not even an issue' show how big the problem is that they can't even see it.
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bandit
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
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Re: Is it time for an assistant cap again?

Post by bandit » #361888

The only way to make people stop playing as assistant is to have a meaningful chain of command, where the downside to assistant actually is that "you answer directly to absolutely everyone." Unfortunately, this seems to be out of reach for the server's policy and has been as long as I've played here.
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