Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

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PathOfChaos1
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Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by PathOfChaos1 » #362106

Is it okay to execute non-implanted people after a catastrophic event happened? What is the threshold of badness do we have to get to before security's aggression inhibitors are turned off? Can we change policy on revolutionary rounds?

Just recently I was banned as HoS during a revolution round. Link to appeal here. The Cobbinator [Excessiveuseofcobby] Had a different opinion on how the situation could have been handled. In the thread we have admin supporting my side, and vice versa. This leaves pretty much an open interpretation when to ban someone by just feeling. In the situation the brig was destroyed. I as HoS made the decision to execute non-implanted crew members. I had previously through out that round. Only executed a Head-rev, and was implanting people never field executing them.

I am aware that when situations get bad security, and heads of staff are allowed to start executing people. I believe that losing the brig to explosions is indeed one of those situations. My personnel investment is that I don't like the note, or the ban I got. I believe that its an honest to god strategy to blow the brig up during rev. It forces the crew to pick a side. Get implanted, or get executed by security. Which fully separates the factions. Revolution is supposed to be a somewhat quick timed round. With admin intervention being lessened than on other rounds.

This is not a ban appeal, or an admin complaint. Cobby feels he is right, and is entitled to his opinion. I have no particular issue with him.

Tl;Dr Revolution is hectic. I think severe damage to the brig should allow security to activate purge the un-implanted/Head mode. I think policy for revolution should be changed to be more exclusive, or inclusive of the ancient execution rights. If I was in the right I don't like notes.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by CPTANT » #362109

If you are somewhat in control it is a dick move to randomly execute people.

However if you lost that control you shouldn't be punished for not getting an antag hud.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by cedarbridge » #362132

I'll say what I said in the ban thread. Security showing up to a bombing site to mop up the survivors is shit behavior and should not be acceptable under any curcumstances where security does not have actual evidence that those persons are perpetrators of the bombing. There has to be at least a bare minimum of mental processing going on. Several of the people that were killed for being to close to a bomb crater were just dudes who were in the area when you showed up, decalred that you feared for your life and then executed them. Some of them were even doing their actual job, which you executed them for doing. If I, as a paramedic show up to the site of a bombing to collect the dead or dying, should sec be chomping at the bit to kill me? Should they be encouraged to do so? Certainly not.

Executing literally everyone you make contact with, guilty or innocent, is generally bad. As a concept, its not good. Security exists to protect the crew and station from threats. They're not armed to the gills with the only real weaponry on the station to protect themselves from the threats to the station. It puts a bad taste in my mouth that we could establish that in a revolutionary round, as soon as somebody yells a meta tell over the radio, sec is safeties off to start butchering the crew to save themselves.

I mean, strategically its a retarded idea anyway. If you want to set a precedent that any "catastrophic event" to include major station damage makes literally everyone on the station valid to be killed by sec officers for any reason, you're just encouraging everyone to go out of their way to get flashed instead of avoiding getting flashed. If I don't get flashed, sec is going to kill me and there's nothing I can do about it. If I get flashed, I've got a bunch of other dudes with Rs to help me dunk the officers after me. You're literally encouraging the catastrophy by your personal justification. I can't tell if that's flavorful, retarded or both.


All of that said, I'm looking to add a Pyrrhic victory level to each side of rev. At certain thresholds of dead crew, the "winning" side doesn't get a full victory. You control the station, woo. The revolution was still a huge flop because everyone is fucking dead. Reverse for the heads. Congrats, you're still kings of the castle. A shame the only ones left there are yourselves. Enjoy your empty castle. Hopefully this moves things away from the lame TDM "win by racking up the most kills until the other side loses via random chance" thing we've got going now.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Dr_bee » #362138

Do people always forget you can de-rev people via head trauma? You dont need to murder unimplanted people, just beat the living hell out of their heads and give them flash protection.

Gestapo sec needs to stop, sec arent soldiers they are cops for gods sake.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by cedarbridge » #362140

Dr_bee wrote:Do people always forget you can de-rev people via head trauma? You dont need to murder unimplanted people, just beat the living hell out of their heads and give them flash protection.

Gestapo sec needs to stop, sec arent soldiers they are cops for gods sake.
The case in the OP, the officer knew about it, didn't see a de-rev noticed so he just carried on with execution. He claimed this was "giving them a chance." Apparently the chance was that if they HAD been flashed they'd get to live.
Last edited by cedarbridge on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by BeeSting12 » #362141

Dr_bee wrote:Do people always forget you can de-rev people via head trauma? You dont need to murder unimplanted people, just beat the living hell out of their heads and give them flash protection.

Gestapo sec needs to stop, sec arent soldiers they are cops for gods sake.
I beat people in the head until they're derevved and if they don't deconvert then they're probably a head rev so I kill them and act surprised when the round doesn't end.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Rustledjimm » #362166

BeeSting12 wrote: I beat people in the head until they're derevved and if they don't deconvert then they're probably a head rev so I kill them and act surprised when the round doesn't end.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Nabski » #362188

So this is unrelated, but during a revolution I knocked two people in the head during combat today. They mentally reconverted midfight. They both kept fighting until either one of us was stunned (them) or dead(me). Most likely a bug but hilarious in the context of this thread.

One of them said they paniced. The other said the icon was still there.
Last edited by Nabski on Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by cedarbridge » #362189

Nabski wrote:They reconverted midfight.
How in the hell.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Nabski » #362190

By me being bad at typing. They didn't notice they got deconverted.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by PathOfChaos1 » #362192

Dr_bee wrote:Do people always forget you can de-rev people via head trauma? You dont need to murder unimplanted people, just beat the living hell out of their heads and give them flash protection.

Gestapo sec needs to stop, sec arent soldiers they are cops for gods sake.
Security isnt cops. Why do people think this. Security is a SECURITY firm privately owned by Nanotrasen. May I remind you is extremely shady, and often murders people for little reason.

Also the Head Trauma thing isnt guaranteed. It can happen, it can also not happen. There is a chance you can get bopped once in the head, and be done.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Cobby » #362194

Losing the brig in a bomb really doesn’t mean much when you probably just kill revs anyways and your route to mindshields is still unfettered. The only possible issue is guns get out but you can get them yourself assuming they didn’t get caught in the blast. Hell when I play sec during rev I try to move the brig to cargo.
PathOfChaos1 wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Do people always forget you can de-rev people via head trauma? You dont need to murder unimplanted people, just beat the living hell out of their heads and give them flash protection.

Gestapo sec needs to stop, sec arent soldiers they are cops for gods sake.
Security isnt cops. Why do people think this. Security is a SECURITY firm privately owned by Nanotrasen. May I remind you is extremely shady, and often murders people for little reason.

Also the Head Trauma thing isnt guaranteed. It can happen, it can also not happen. There is a chance you can get bopped once in the head, and be done.
In lore maybe, however in practice and in admin situations they are very much treated like cops and are expected to take non lethal courses of action within reason
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by EagleWiz » #362200

Not being in your department during an active revolution is suspect, and someone successfully bombing the brig to the point that its not useful anywhere seems like it would count as one of the things that allows sec to start executing people for being suspicious (if its a conversion round).
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Nilons » #362206

Ive always viewed it as ok if the specific moment dictates it necessary, like revs invading sec getting the harm baton, and overall inability to do anything else. Things like the brig being bombed, cargo being out of commission etc. What I wanna know is if effort made to resolve it properly is taken into account. If a HoS uses the excuse "Well cargo is full of revs of course I can't get implants" is there any way for admins to tell whether or not he even tried to take cargo early. Sometimes shitter security heads can just wait for the station to go just to shit enough they can legally doll out the swat teams with lethals instead of even trying to do anything before hand.

Edit: Head trauma should not be treated as anywhere near equivalent to implants imo. It's a coin toss with the off chance they're a head rev and even if they're neither rev or revhead and you stop they'll prolly try and get back at you for the bludgeoning because people don't take kindly to it. It really should be a "If it happens while I'm executing him sure why not" type of cure or removed because all it does is make grey areas like this where people get dinged for not surgically bludgeoning the mal-intent out of revs
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by cedarbridge » #362228

EagleWiz wrote:Not being in your department during an active revolution is suspect, and someone successfully bombing the brig to the point that its not useful anywhere seems like it would count as one of the things that allows sec to start executing people for being suspicious (if its a conversion round).
If you catch a MD in paramedic gear/softsuit at the site of a bombing do you

1) Expect that he's a doctor doing doctor things at the sight of a bombing and leave him alone.

2) Apply harmbaton because your life is in immediate danger
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by imblyings » #362231

stun and kill because medbay is always a den of scum and villainy
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by leibniz » #362234

kill everyone always
everyone as in implanted people too, there is a chance their implant will be removed with surgery
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Incomptinence » #362242

You make fast spreading group antags have no tells to prevent metagaming.

The deconvert from head bashes is also random to prevent metagaming.

Stealthy group antags means in a crisis security does end up euthanising all unimplanted crew due to this.
Pretty standard stuff really.

The bombing survivors angle is asinine revs have explicitly been raged at many times for wanton bombing team killing their fellow revs and throwing the round many times, sorry but FF is enabled.
Last edited by Incomptinence on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Dax Dupont » #362243

I would like to point out that admins have okay'd on the whole "just kill everyone who's not been implanted" before and an admin has recently speared a janitor to death for slipping floors and acting suspicious(which is valid in my eyes in the circumstances).

In this case, it's a head of security player who's in the middle of the of a chaotic round, fending for his life, who lost most of his force and nearly got blown up which in itself is hugely chaotic. Meanwhile MULTIPLE people who are revolutionaries that just passed the area.
There's tons of fast decision making, tons of stress, limited information and others that happens during this.
Rev rounds ALWAYS result in people getting killed more or less indiscriminately, and in this case it seemed more than justified.

Also since cobby wants people to metagame more here's the actual code for deconverting:

Code: Select all

if(prob(I.force + ((100 - H.health)/2)) && H != user)
						var/datum/antagonist/rev/rev = H.mind.has_antag_datum(/datum/antagonist/rev)
						if(rev)
							rev.remove_revolutionary(FALSE, user)
Stunbaton has a force of 10 on harm. Which means a 10% chance of deconverting on full health and a 60~ percent chance on 1 hp. You cannot deconvert when unconscious or the armor block on the head is more than 50.

Further chances:
90hp == 15
70hp == 25
50hp == 35
Last edited by Dax Dupont on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:44 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Incomptinence » #362244

An exploded brig is basically the kid gloves coming off via the opposing party shoving your hands in a vat of acid.

The only shame is the ttvs were already taken so he couldn't whip up his own bombs for some mutually assured destruction.

On the NO PROOF angle I have straight up just armed a bomb and chucked it at people, better way to ensure casualties really. Hell there were times when you could straight up open the valve chuck it and the explosion happened on them a tiny bit latter. Only suicide bombing is more certain to kill people.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Dax Dupont » #362250

Also this is in the ban reason
After telling me he was aiming for the head to deconvert, I asked why didn't he stop when he realized deconversion wasn't happening.
Afaik hitting a head rev on the head does not deconvert and does not show a failure message so the whole not displaying a message argument goes right out of the window as well.

Also RNG.

Code is here:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... 1334-L1337
Checks for /datum/antagonist/rev but head rev is /datum/antagonist/rev/head and can't be deconverted but by borging
See https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... #L153-L156
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by RogueSteampunker » #362254

>brig was completely bombed and useless, leaving the HoS without a defense
>any method of peacefully deconverting Revs has been removed, the only exception being risking standing in cargo for several minutes as a sitting duck
>multiple people associated with explosives found near the bomb site
>Gets bwoinked because HoS didn't enter a constant-loop of letting people go on a flimsy and unreliable deconverting mechanic that would end with a living head rev, and no way to prevent Revs walking away or deconverted Revs getting instantly converted again
>apparently, security mass-murder isn't allowed in a situation detailed as the apitimy of "okay for sec to go full lethal"

Jesus Christ, Cobby. If you're going to do double standards, don't make them look so pathetic.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Cobby » #362255

RogueSteampunker wrote:>brig was completely bombed and useless, leaving the HoS the without a defense
>any method of peacefully deconverting Revs has been removed, the only exception being risking standing in cargo for several minutes as a sitting duck
>multiple people associated with explosives found near the bomb site
>Gets bwoinked because HoS didn't enter a constant-loop of letting people go on a flimsy and unreliable deconverting mechanic would end with a living head rev, and no way to prevent Revs walking away or reconverted Revs getting instantly converted again
>apparently, security mass-murder isn't allowed in a situation detailed as the apitimy of "okay for sec to go full lethal"

Jesus Christ, Cobby. If you're going to do double standards, don't make them look so pathetic.
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Dax Dupont wrote:Also this is in the ban reason
After telling me he was aiming for the head to deconvert, I asked why didn't he stop when he realized deconversion wasn't happening.
Afaik hitting a head rev on the head does not deconvert and does not show a failure message so the whole not displaying a message argument goes right out of the window as well.

Also RNG.

Code is here:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... 1334-L1337
Checks for /datum/antagonist/rev but head rev is /datum/antagonist/rev/head and can't be deconverted but by borging
See https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... #L153-L156
I don’t think the argument is thrown out the window when the whole point was they didn’t do anything to be considered rev to begin with.

Also knowing how the entirety of rev works ICly so you can call in the deathcamps as soon as possible but considering a method of deconversion (the ONLY way without implants) and how to keep people in the round as metagaming is a bit odd and as I mentioned in the thread means you’re just trying to rack up kills imo.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Pascal125 » #362261

If rev is confirmed, the brig is blown, and security is scattered. What do you expect people to do? Anyone could be a potential enemy. Anyone can and will try to kill you, it's you versus them. And the only way to survive is by not being sloppy and being one step ahead. That's just the gamemode. Players don't know everything. They can barely see 8 tiles ahead of themselves. When shit really hits the fan it's fight or flight. And security isn't about flight.

Headrevs don't deconvert from getting whacked, 100%.
Revs aren't guaranteed to deconvert from being bonked on the head.
If Revs are confirmed, security has probable reason to beat someones head in, and no alternatives. I don't see why it's a problem.

Yeah, it sucks for the guy who got his head caved in, but unfortunately; that's the gamemode.
Sometimes, you just lose.

Rev or not, they were just at the wrong place at the wrong time, or acting like a rev.
And they got the short end of a stun-baton for it.

What do you expect him to do? Stop beating and heal them? Yeah, they could do that, and in most cases probably should... The brig being blown up is not one of those cases.
But let's say he does, let's his guard down. Surely it isn't possible that RNG could have something to do with it, right? Heal him up. Then what? He potentially gets stabbed in the back immediately. Surprise! You're dead.
Damn, trying to be nice and keeping suspicious people alive during conversion modes sure pays off. What goes around, comes aro-Oh wait. I'm dead.

Don't act like there isn't atleast a slight possibility that if you were to ever play security. You might have a situation like this.
I'm not saying run around beating people to shit when the brig is gone and you're quite possibly the only security member left.
But you might wind up running around beating people to shit when the brig is gone and you're quite possibly the only security member left.

The bomber possibly being at or not being at the site of his own bombed area is irrelevant. Some go there, some don't. Some do things, some don't. It's a rev round. If they blow up the brig, chances are they already have the upper hand and will soon rush through to fight security and loot what's left. With the playerbase we have, Revolution doesn't offer you the luxury of slacking. Unless your intention is death. And revolutionaries are all too happy to make it happen.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by RogueSteampunker » #362265

Cobby wrote:Losing the brig in a bomb really doesn’t mean much when you probably just kill revs anyways and your route to mindshields is still unfettered. The only possible issue is guns get out but you can get them yourself assuming they didn’t get caught in the blast. Hell when I play sec during rev I try to move the brig to cargo.
PathOfChaos1 wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Do people always forget you can de-rev people via head trauma? You dont need to murder unimplanted people, just beat the living hell out of their heads and give them flash protection.

Gestapo sec needs to stop, sec arent soldiers they are cops for gods sake.
Security isnt cops. Why do people think this. Security is a SECURITY firm privately owned by Nanotrasen. May I remind you is extremely shady, and often murders people for little reason.

Also the Head Trauma thing isnt guaranteed. It can happen, it can also not happen. There is a chance you can get bopped once in the head, and be done.
In lore maybe, however in practice and in admin situations they are very much treated like cops and are expected to take non lethal courses of action within reason
"Still unfettered"

If the brig is being bombed and lethal action is a necessary, cargo is a death sentence. Not just in Revs, but in any conversion mode. Especially in the scenario the HoS is in, he had no one to back him up, and no way to be certain that Cargo isn't already flooding with Revs arming up.

And assuming Cargo ISNT filled with Revs as per the norm, it's much easier to breach than sec, even under the most optimal of situations.

And to say that the brig being bombed and being without support isn't reason enough to kill the people that are most likely to be near bomb-making materials, Is something I could only imagine coming from someone who doesn't KNOW what that sort of situation entails.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Cobby » #362268

Thoughts:

1. I have actually played rev on more than one occasion. As HoS too. Never killed people for being at an explosion unless they were trying to exploit (ie brig is bombed and they try to go to armory). I’ve won plenty of times without having to murder the entirety of the crew. I have also defended Cargo when brig was overran and slowly pulled people in to be implanted, *and win*. It’s a realistic option people are either too lazy or murderboney to want to do.

2. Headrevs have tells and with robustins pr iirc one is hitting with a health analyzer. When you have them bucklecuffed, you *can* search them. If they were the bomber you’d probably be seeing purplechat the moment you stunned them.

3. If you suspect someone and hit them on the head until crit when they didn’t do anything to begin with, it’s probably safe to heal them up and give them glasses because they’re probably not rev.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by cedarbridge » #362280

What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev. I should do this because sec will go immediately full retard and start genociding the crew because "the kid gloves come off" and their doing so is likely to get them lynched by non-revs. Do you people not realize how stupid this sounds?
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Nilons » #362281

cedarbridge wrote:What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev. I should do this because sec will go immediately full retard and start genociding the crew because "the kid gloves come off" and their doing so is likely to get them lynched by non-revs. Do you people not realize how stupid this sounds?
If they would get lynched by nonrevs this thread wouldn't exist. Security acting with impunity can easily steamroll the crew.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Pascal125 » #362283

cedarbridge wrote:What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev. I should do this because sec will go immediately full retard and start genociding the crew because "the kid gloves come off" and their doing so is likely to get them lynched by non-revs. Do you people not realize how stupid this sounds?
Then read again. And again, and again. Untill you properly understand what everyone is saying. Because that's not what anyone is saying.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by cedarbridge » #362284

Nilons wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev. I should do this because sec will go immediately full retard and start genociding the crew because "the kid gloves come off" and their doing so is likely to get them lynched by non-revs. Do you people not realize how stupid this sounds?
If they would get lynched by nonrevs this thread wouldn't exist. Security acting with impunity can easily steamroll the crew.
Right, and that's why I'm so against this push for "let sec do as they want when things on the station are dire enough to be out of control. It incentivizes sec to LET things get out of control in order to be granted a sort of pseudo-antag status as against actual antagonists but also completely innocent non-antag crew members. A specific group of people on the station are given guns to protect the part of the station that doesn't have guns from the part of the station (or outside of the station) that wants to kill the people on the station. That the group granted those guns says "welp, time to genocide everyone because we''ll be sure to get the right one eventually." they stop being protectors of the station. This also takes advantage of the metaknowledge that "sec can't be antagonists" so the crew that aren't flashed are default inclined to trust Officer Friendly right up until he brains them for being too close to the blast zone of a bomb that didn't do them the courtesy of finishing them off.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Dax Dupont » #362287

:mrgreen:
Cobby wrote: 2. Headrevs have tells and with robustins pr iirc one is hitting with a health analyzer. When you have them bucklecuffed, you *can* search them. If they were the bomber you’d probably be seeing purplechat the moment you stunned them.
Wasn't that a bug that was fixed?
edit: yes it was https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/31110

The only tell is that they MIGHT have a flash, unless they lost/expended theirs.... Besides wasn't the guy a roboticist who can literally print flashes and most likely had one?
Cobby wrote: 3. If you suspect someone and hit them on the head until crit when they didn’t do anything to begin with, it’s probably safe to heal them up and give them glasses because they’re probably not rev.
>probably
hmmm and hope you're probably right so you probably don't get killed, probably.
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cedarbridge
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by cedarbridge » #362293

Dax Dupont wrote:The only tell is that they MIGHT have a flash, unless they lost/expended theirs.... Besides wasn't the guy a roboticist who can literally print flashes and most likely had one?
He had a proximity sensor from making medbots and floorbots. In any case, I'm not sure what the endgame is here. The officer has three options:
-If the guy is a normal rev I can keep hitting him until he deconverts and dies. If he doesn't deconvert I'll just keep hitting him until he dies. If he dies, that's his problem for being a dirty evil rev on the wrong team.
-If the guy is a head rev he won't deconvert when I hit him so I'll just hit him until he dies and check him off the list.
-If the guy isn't a rev at all then he should have just suicided because I'm going to murder him either way because I went into this assuming he was a rev for reasons I can come up with after I'm finished bashing his brains in.

So in every case we have crew constrained by sec's protected status as non-antagonists being murdered because an officer makes an assumption based on "if not implanted therefore purge."
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Nabski » #362295

Dax Dupont wrote:NERDMATH CODE STUFF
So does that mean if I want a higher chance of deconverting before they die, I should use a high force weapon? Or does it even out.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by RogueSteampunker » #362297

cedarbridge wrote:What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev. I should do this because sec will go immediately full retard and start genociding the crew because "the kid gloves come off" and their doing so is likely to get them lynched by non-revs. Do you people not realize how stupid this sounds?
And what I'm getting from a few people in this thread is that Sec should just let themselves be slaughtered if they haven't already gotten control of Cargo within the first 5 minutes of a round. They should do this, because it's apparently frowned upon to take lethal action when your main means of nonlethally deconverting revs has been taken away by said Revs. Do you not realize how stupid this sounds?
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Dax Dupont » #362298

Nabski wrote:
Dax Dupont wrote:NERDMATH CODE STUFF
So does that mean if I want a higher chance of deconverting before they die, I should use a high force weapon? Or does it even out.
Sorta, I once had someone axe me into deconversion in one hit.
Wielded fireaxe is force set to 24
ergo, 24% chance per hit on full HP. 49% at 50hp for axe vs 10% and 35% for baton.
You will be able to hit them less before they die but if RNGesus is willing you're more likely to deconvert them per hit.

As metagaming is important according to the ban reason, fire axes are technically more efficient.
So next time you suspect someone being a rev, politely axe them if they are one.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Cobby » #362308

Dax Dupont wrote:post
Having a flash during rev is your fault and justified for killing. However, this was not why he was killed (or at least explained in any post by OP).

With that said, if you searched a suspect and found nothing even if they are rev what are they going to do? punch you to death while you have 1 click wonders? They didn't even call out the location either iirc so it's not like he was summoning the revs and needed to be shut down which would have also been justified (probably because they weren't rev).
RogueSteampunker wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev. I should do this because sec will go immediately full retard and start genociding the crew because "the kid gloves come off" and their doing so is likely to get them lynched by non-revs. Do you people not realize how stupid this sounds?
And what I'm getting from a few people in this thread is that Sec should just let themselves be slaughtered if they haven't already gotten control of Cargo within the first 5 minutes of a round. They should do this, because it's apparently frowned upon to take lethal action when your main means of nonlethally deconverting revs has been taken away by said Revs. Do you not realize how stupid this sounds?
getting bombed sucks, but taking it out on everyone else is shitty. If you think not being able to kill everyone indiscriminately (note we are still very lax on shitcurity during rev and we even still permit order 66 memes when all hope is lost) for little to no reason is equivalent to you getting killed everytime a flash comes out, then yep sorry you lose. If you think the game is incapable of allowing sec to win without the ability to kill at the drop of a pen, perhaps you should ask for its removal.

Everyone has a vested interest in staying in the game, security included. Do you think people who aren't in the rev enjoy getting killed because of such flimsy reason? We even ban people for purposefully trying to get converted, but it seems like that's the only thing to do when security will kill you upon any transgression done on them during a rev round. This little twist on security becoming the victim when the whole thread is conceived due to security killing literally innocent victims is still very very confusing.
Dax Dupont wrote:
Nabski wrote:
Dax Dupont wrote:NERDMATH CODE STUFF
So does that mean if I want a higher chance of deconverting before they die, I should use a high force weapon? Or does it even out.
Sorta, I once had someone axe me into deconversion in one hit.
Wielded fireaxe is force set to 24
ergo, 24% chance per hit on full HP. 49% at 50hp for axe vs 10% and 35% for baton.
You will be able to hit them less before they die but if RNGesus is willing you're more likely to deconvert them per hit.

As metagaming is important according to the ban reason, fire axes are technically more efficient.
So next time you suspect someone being a rev, politely axe them if they are one.
Just use a toolbox to head and hit them to crit. Hell heal them up and try once more. If they're not deconverted by then you probably don't have a rev, especially when they didn't do anything rev-like prior except be near a bomb before it exploded :roll:
Also knowing how the entirety of rev works ICly so you can call in the deathcamps as soon as possible but considering a method of deconversion (the ONLY way without implants) and how to keep people in the round as metagaming is a bit odd and as I mentioned in the thread means you’re just trying to rack up kills imo.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by CPTANT » #362311

cedarbridge wrote:What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev. I should do this because sec will go immediately full retard and start genociding the crew because "the kid gloves come off" and their doing so is likely to get them lynched by non-revs. Do you people not realize how stupid this sounds?
K I will just let myself be killed next time Cargo and sec are gone/overrun because you will ban me if I actually try to fight.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Anonmare » #362315

It sounds to me like the gamemode itself is the problem
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by CPTANT » #362317

Anonmare wrote:It sounds to me like the gamemode itself is the problem
It sounds to me like there never was a problem to begin with.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Nilons » #362323

Anonmare wrote:It sounds to me like the gamemode itself is the problem
anonmare is right as fuck
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #362326

Question: At what point is it okay for the non-rev crew to begin murdering sec?

Sec are allowed to murder anyone at any time for any reason they care to think up if they're losing rev or a bomb has been set off next to the brig - but non-antags aren't allowed to fight/attack sec pre-emptively, ever, or threat of OOC retribution by admins. If sec are just gunning down everyone in the hallways for not being implanted, should non-antags be permitted to do the same? After all, when rev goes to hell most revs just kill anyone without an [R], so every single person on the station is out for their blood, both sec and rev, with the exception of 1-3 headrevs whose identities are unknown.

So when do we say "Yes you can pre-emptively kill the sec officers who are trying to exterminate the whole station"?
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by CPTANT » #362337

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Question: At what point is it okay for the non-rev crew to begin murdering sec?

Sec are allowed to murder anyone at any time for any reason they care to think up if they're losing rev or a bomb has been set off next to the brig - but non-antags aren't allowed to fight/attack sec pre-emptively, ever, or threat of OOC retribution by admins. If sec are just gunning down everyone in the hallways for not being implanted, should non-antags be permitted to do the same? After all, when rev goes to hell most revs just kill anyone without an [R], so every single person on the station is out for their blood, both sec and rev, with the exception of 1-3 headrevs whose identities are unknown.

So when do we say "Yes you can pre-emptively kill the sec officers who are trying to exterminate the whole station"?
How about when you notice they are doing just that?

Is this really a hard question?
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by onleavedontatme » #362342

Except we have spent four years beating it into peoples heads that

A) sec isnt antag ever

B) you will get banned for attacking security
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by onleavedontatme » #362344

Do you really want it to be a regular occurence that you're killing a rev and a random crewmember spaces you because "I thought sec was purging crew!"

I dont know how many of you were around for traitor sec but being killed by a mob because the guy you arrested screamed for help wasnt much fun
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Qbopper » #362363

traitor sec was always fantastic

nothing like noticing that the officer is dragging you into maint and not to the brig and sighing because you're about to get sucked

also iirc when that was a thing we didn't have ghost roles beyond pai so you were actually properly fucked
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by Incomptinence » #362369

Oh don't worry kor we've passed far beyond needing traitor sec.

The mob got into administration instead.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by cedarbridge » #362452

CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev. I should do this because sec will go immediately full retard and start genociding the crew because "the kid gloves come off" and their doing so is likely to get them lynched by non-revs. Do you people not realize how stupid this sounds?
K I will just let myself be killed next time Cargo and sec are gone/overrun because you will ban me if I actually try to fight.
Literally "oh so next time I'll just X": the post.

No part of that post says anyone will get banned for fighting. No part of that post says you have to die without capturing cargo. No part of that says you have to die at all, really. What it does say is that throwing up your hands as soon as things aren't in your favor and initiating the purge on the station is stupid and lacks even standard levels of human creativity. I'm really baffled that it is so hard for so many sec players to get their heads around the idea that it might not be something desirable for anyone involved to start purging literally everyone you find without implants from the station while hiding behind ingrained OOC protections and full roundstart combat gear.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by captain sawrge » #362459

cedarbridge wrote:What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev.
cedarbridge wrote: Literally "oh so next time I'll just X": the post.
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by cedarbridge » #362461

captain sawrge wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev.
cedarbridge wrote: Literally "oh so next time I'll just X": the post.
Not even remotely the same thing. :honk:
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Re: Revolutionaries, A brig lost, a tale of two Factions.

Post by captain sawrge » #362466

cedarbridge wrote:
captain sawrge wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:What I'm getting from a lot of the players in this thread is that I should bomb the brig every round as a flashed rev.
cedarbridge wrote: Literally "oh so next time I'll just X": the post.
Not even remotely the same thing. :honk:
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