Does the posession of Mapspawn traitor items make one valid?

[Sweets]

On sybil today I picked up the box of throwing weapons on Metastation's bar while playing as clown, following that I took the Caps spare and ran around the station until I was tased by the warden. He found the box and then executed me. Upon Ahelping I was told that being in possession of traitor items makes you valid.

Now I have THREE conflicting scenarios that all involve this box on Meta.

The first occurred sometime early 2017 where I was killed for having that box. At the time, an admin ( I think it was PKP) told the person who killed me that it was not a valid kill and warned them while reviving me.

The second occured around this November. I was playing as warden and executed two engineers who were attempting to break into the HoS' office and used the weapons in the box against me. I was told in postround (it was nuke ops) that if they hadn't used the weapons on me, I would have been warned.

Finally the third scenario is what happened just recently.

This brings me into three specific questions.

1. Does a non-antag in possession of map spawn antag items immediately become valid for the rest of the crew?

2. Does Security have the authority to execute a nonantag crew member who has surrendered, not caused any harm or attacks and is in custody when there is an acting captain?

3. Should we just remove the spawn of Syndibox and Cards and make it 100% russian revolver chance to eliminate this from happening again? What about the EMP grenades in maint and the Stetchkin that can spawn in the armory?

Title edited and information on other items added.

[Sweets]

They are. A stetchkin can also spawn in the contraband locker of armory.

[oranges]

These were originally added to metabreak, but if the policy is that it's okay to kill everyone with them, it kind of defeats the purpose so I would agree that we should adjust the loot tables if that's true.

[SpaceInaba]

the stetchkin isnt that bad since you cant reload it unless im just retarded and dont know how to print more mags from an autolathe

[Nabski]

You're only slightly retarded.

You print more ammo and use the ammo on the ejected mag to refill it.

[SpaceInaba]

oh I see it just takes forever
its no worse than the det revolver then
I will mention though sometimes bolas and throwing stars ALSO spawn in that armory locker on meta

[Dax Dupont]

On sybil today I picked up the box of throwing weapons on Metastation's bar while playing as clown, following that I took the Caps spare and ran around the station until I was tased by the warden. .

>Breaking into captain's office
>stealing spare id
>Be surprised if you're valid and ahelp

I am surprised you didn't get warned for ban baiting.

Alas, if there's traitors and someone has traitor items you can generally assume they are tatortots, it's hard to know otherwise. Especially if that person is running around with all access.

I'd argue that when it's known they might be map spawned then they should be cautious, but considering you already committed high crime..

Act like an antag, be treated as an antag.
See rule 4.

Also yes security can kill antagonists, even surrendered ones. Generally it's expected that they be reasonable with this and they generally should ask the HoS and/or the captain.

As for 3. maybe, I think they are dumb to be available on map spawn and I've solely seen people using them to be shitters.

[Sweets]

Also yes security can kill antagonists, even surrendered ones. Generally it's expected that they be reasonable with this and they generally should ask the HoS and/or the captain.

Remove the tip that says only the acting Cap and HoS can authorize executions then. We don't need conflicting information everywhere.

[BeeSting12]

Act like an antag get treated like one. Throwing weapons emp nades and stetchkins are all traitor items. If you get busted with them then you should fully expect to get killed or treated as a traitor

[Sweets]

Is it "Acting" if you merely possess them however? If you find a syndie toolbox sitting in the middle of the hallway and take the combat gloves out of it, should you be killed on sight wordlessly by security before you can even explain?

[BeeSting12]

Probably not, but it would definitely factor into whether I ban the officer or not.

[Dax Dupont]

Is it "Acting" if you merely possess them however? If you find a syndie toolbox sitting in the middle of the hallway and take the combat gloves out of it, should you be killed on sight wordlessly by security before you can even explain?

Just possession, probably not. If however you've stole the captain's ID..

It's more or less compounding factors.

[Armhulen]

Why the hell does the map give traitor items

should this even be policy instead of removing them because that's dumb

[BeeSting12]

It will be handled on a case by case basis. It's crazy to expect 3 different admins in 3 different situations that happen to have one common factor to handle it the same way.

[oranges]

These were originally added to metabreak, but if the policy is that it's okay to kill everyone with them, it kind of defeats the purpose so I would agree that we should adjust the loot tables if that's true.

[Wyzack]

what if we stopped intervening any time there is in IC conflict where one side isnt an antag?

What if we didnt make a game about misdirection and paranoia and then ban people when they guess wrong?

[oranges]

lasering everyone you see acting suspiciously isn't misdirection or paranoia

[CPTANT]

>Steals captains ID and runs around with traitor weapons
>Is surprised he gets executed.

Warden could have executed you even without having the box.....

[Kel-the-Oblivious]

In the lavaland, there are two possible tator items you can get. The first is a syndie legion, complete with red hardsuit, tactical turtleneck, and mask. No weapons, and the only obvious tator item being the hardsuit. The few times I find it, I openly announce it over the general channel, and carry the operative's ID card with me as proof that it was gained from a legion corpse. The other a stetchkin that spawns in the Queen's chamber in the xeno hive. Another contraband item is the Captain's laser pistol in the Snowdin dome.

Any miner worth their salt will A: Announce finding them item, and send a couple PDA messages to the Captain and HoS/Warden about the items they found. Of course, using said items on the crew makes you valid salad, but I do not believe you become valid simply for having them, more so if you've made it well known that you have them.

[MrStonedOne]

My thoughts on this has always been simple. If we allow people to meta, that should come with increased penalties for being wrong. If you want to assume shit, you better be right.

[Nilons]

When you pick up what is normally exclusive to traitors why would you be surprised when you get bludgeoned to death and people think you're a traitor. It can be fun and meta breaking while simultaneously having consequences ICly.

[D&B]

Maybe if you hadn't been a tiding little shit they wouldn't have had reasons to execute you.

This is shut and close ban baiting.

[Saegrimr]

Don't forget the various space goodies, syndie toolboxes, duffelbags, stetchkins, etc.

[MrStonedOne]

>player is memeing around

>security shuts that down

>player thinks security reacted too harshly

"BAN BAITING!!!!!!11"

This is a less clear cut example, but this trope will become the death of /tg/ and ss13 if not kept in check.

Not wanting security to rain on your parade while your being a little shit isn't ban baiting.

[Screemonster]

> running around with traitor gear that sometimes spawns on the map
Questionable, but not really "acting like an antag"

> breaking into the bridge and stealing all access
Kinda antaggish, very greytide, kinda makes you valid anyway

> Breaking into the bridge, stealing all access, then being found in possession of traitor gear when finally caught
oh you better berieve dat's varid

[onleavedontatme]

> running around with traitor gear that sometimes spawns on the map
Questionable, but not really "acting like an antag"

> breaking into the bridge and stealing all access
Kinda antaggish, very greytide, kinda makes you valid anyway

> Breaking into the bridge, stealing all access, then being found in possession of traitor gear when finally caught
oh you better berieve dat's varid

[Sweets]

I understand that it's valid. I am not complaining TOO much about my death. The Warden could have handled it better than wordless point blank shotgun with no discussion, but I just wanted to get this matter settled and done.

So if a person has not done any tiding all shift or has a very minor record and are caught with mapspawn traitor gear, are they or are they not valid to security to wordlessly put a bullet in them with little to no explanation?

[Kel-the-Oblivious]

> running around with traitor gear that sometimes spawns on the map
Questionable, but not really "acting like an antag"

Main part of that is "acting like an antag" If you are strolling about in your red hardsuit or tactical turtleneck, or maybe keeping your little pistol on your hip instead of a pocket, that's showing off trophies. Everyone likes to take antag toys. Like MSO said

My thoughts on this has always been simple. If we allow people to meta, that should come with increased penalties for being wrong. If you want to assume shit, you better be right.

If you are going to blindly attack someone simply because they have an item, you get a bwoink if you are wrong.

[PKPenguin321]

My thoughts on this has always been simple. If we allow people to meta, that should come with increased penalties for being wrong. If you want to assume shit, you better be right.

generally i agree, but there's a line that should be drawn somewhere

arresting somebody because they were carrying a piece of paper and might be a cultist is clearly a stupid, meta-motivated overreaction, but if somebody's toting around a stetchkin (and it's plainly obvious that it's not a toy, but the real-deal traitor-only gun) then it's much more understandable to bash them in on the spot

[ShadowDimentio]

Don't touch traitor items if you aren't ready to be mistaken for a traitor. Not a complicated rule.

[captain sawrge]

>be me
>worried about meta
>what if i try to just trick everyone into thinking its x roundtype by making traitor/wiz/cult/whatever items show up as random loot
>everyone actually is tricked
>how could i have foreseen this

[WarbossLincoln]

My thoughts on this has always been simple. If we allow people to meta, that should come with increased penalties for being wrong. If you want to assume shit, you better be right.

It's not normally traitor exclusive if they lie around the station for people to pick up. In this case though, having stolen the ID he got what was coming to him. Any officer would assume that a syndicate item + stolen captain's ID is enough evidence of being a traitor. If I picked up a clown who hadn't done anything serious and found syndicate cards on him that he claimed he found in maint/bar I'd probably let him go.

[feem]

So not to dig too deep into this one because I've kinda been avoiding it, but I want to reiterate that just because you find something in the hall or it's lying around somewhere doesn't mean that you're absolved of any IC consequences of having the item.

[Iatots]

Hoarding items of limited quantity has been a powergaming staple for so long it's been normalized. If anyone thinks it a handy excuse to remove shitters from the round they better think again because now it's kill or be killed for having some syndie smokes and playing the game the way it's balanced to be played.

[captain sawrge]

Hoarding items of limited quantity has been a powergaming staple for so long it's been normalized. If anyone thinks it a handy excuse to remove shitters from the round they better think again because now it's kill or be killed for having some syndie smokes and playing the game the way it's balanced to be played.

Dont do the crime if you cant do the time bitch

[onleavedontatme]

Metabreakers are silly if you get banned for falling for them. Trying to IC trick players and then OOC punishing them for being tricked seems cruel

They're also more or less useless if you don't get banned for falling for them since you can just kill the suspicious player in question and be fine either way since you don't actually need any crew

I sometimes compare SS13 to mafia and say banning people for guessing wrong is like banning for a mislynch, but the flipside to that is mislynches actually cause you to lose the game in mafia.

No good answer here

[Armhulen]

No good answer here

removing them, we're going to have datum antags eventually anyways there will always be traitors in a round

[Iatots]

Hoarding items of limited quantity has been a powergaming staple for so long it's been normalized. If anyone thinks it a handy excuse to remove shitters from the round they better think again because now it's kill or be killed for having some syndie smokes and playing the game the way it's balanced to be played.

Dont do the crime if you cant do the time bitch

More like don't expect anything other than the entire sec team being wiped after one officer sees an assistant with [fancy item].

[Arianya]

Having mapspawn traitor items as a metabreak is fine. The contributing factors are as ever, what maketh the crime. Carrying around a nonlethal traitor item when you get arrested for something minor while the station is fine should most likely not result in execution.

If you got pulled over for slipping an officer, they saw a syndie smoke grenade in your backpack and then executed you on the spot, I think most admins would be fairly comfortable saying sec was in the wrong, "traitor item" or no.

If you get pulled over for breaking into a high sec area, they see lethal contraband weaponry in your backpack and then execute you in a controlled manner (if perhaps not authorized by the HoS/Cap directly (was there even one of either?)), then its fairly clear that sec is not at fault here.

Also, the secondary (and arguably more important part) of metabreak items is to deceive sec about the roundtype, not just about one specific person.

If I catch shitbird a with a stetchkin after he tries to shoot the mime then I'm going to be fairly confident its traitors/traitling, even though in reality there's an insidious blood cult about to storm sec.

In summary: Don't commit two crimes at once.

[WarbossLincoln]

I think it's a symptom of how loosely we treat Sec, which definitely has it's pros and cons. You don't have to grasp at too many straws to legitimize an execution if there's any grey area in the situation.

also, someone referred to 'datum antags', what's that? Not familiar with the term.

[onleavedontatme]

Coders (mostly antur) are working hard on making game mode code non garbage, and all antag code compatible/standardized into antag datums. This would allow us to easily randomize and run mixed modes, which is what people on the forums are generally referring to as "datum antags"

[WarbossLincoln]

Ah ok, so you could do a rev round with a couple traitors running around, or a revolution with a changeling or something without having to have an admin morph a character into one manually. That could be interesting. And meta-breaking which would be nice. "IT'S REVS" got old a couple years ago.

[WarbossLincoln]

I kinda think if we're going to have some random loot traitor items, we should expand the list to include all traitor items that aren't lethal weapons, and can't fuck up the whole station. Make it a little harder to meta if it's a real traitor or not. If it's a gun you'd know, but if someone found a chameleon projector in maintenance and was playing around with it they might not be.

[Wyzack]

Lol remember Incoming's "Datum antags 2016" sig?


Pepperidge farm remembers

[oranges]

Datum antags have been completed

[Stickymayhem]

Jesus christ this is how far we've come.

IF YOU SEE AN ILLEGAL ITEM, AND DON'T WANT TO BE ARRESTED OR EXECUTED, REPORT IT TO SECURITY, LEAVE IT WHERE IT WAS OR PICK IT UP AND ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES.

It's fucking contraband. People are whining about getting fucked up for the highest-level of contraband. Just leave it on the fucking floor.

[feem]

We also have to repeatedly explain to players:

* Entering the captain's office/armory/other high-security area and taking items has IC consequences
* Getting an AI or borg to open the door, or walking in through an already-hacked door, is not an open invitation which absolves you of any IC consequences
* Helping an antag do something can sometimes have IC consequences, even if you don't do so in a way that breaks rules
* Running around and shoving people or slipping security officers and heads isn't "doing nothing" and while if they kill you outright for it they're in the wrong, there still may be IC consequences
* Getting arrested for things you do ICly is not a violation of your rights as a player
* Getting the HoP to add access to your ID or change your job does not automatically make the person in charge of the department you beeline to accept you
* Being a security officer doesn't give you the automatic right to be a complete shithead to the crew for no reason, and being security does not absolve you of IC consequences for doing so

[oranges]

We also have to repeatedly explain to players:

* Entering the captain's office/armory/other high-security area and taking items has IC consequences
* Getting an AI or borg to open the door, or walking in through an already-hacked door, is not an open invitation which absolves you of any IC consequences
* Helping an antag do something can sometimes have IC consequences, even if you don't do so in a way that breaks rules
* Running around and shoving people or slipping security officers and heads isn't "doing nothing" and while if they kill you outright for it they're in the wrong, there still may be IC consequences
* Getting arrested for things you do ICly is not a violation of your rights as a player
* Getting the HoP to add access to your ID or change your job does not automatically make the person in charge of the department you beeline to accept you
* Being a security officer doesn't give you the automatic right to be a complete shithead to the crew for no reason, and being security does not absolve you of IC consequences for doing so

This is excellent and should be saved on the wiki

[Kel-the-Oblivious]

Jesus christ this is how far we've come.

IF YOU SEE AN ILLEGAL ITEM, AND DON'T WANT TO BE ARRESTED OR EXECUTED, REPORT IT TO SECURITY, LEAVE IT WHERE IT WAS OR PICK IT UP AND ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES.

It's fucking contraband. People are whining about getting fucked up for the highest-level of contraband. Just leave it on the fucking floor.

"Huh, that traitor I managed to disarm/kill was carrying an emag and energy sword. Well, it's contraband, better just leave it on the floor and wait for security to come get it. Oh no, Joey Greytide just ran up and looted everything. If only I had picked it up to secure it, announcing it repeatedly over the radio, and made my way to security to drop it off. Yes, there is the chance I might be randomly searched, but I openly announced over the radio what I had found, and my intentions with them. If anything, the officer might take them from me, or escort me to the brig so I can explain the situation."

Yes, many items should be robust on sight outside of VERY certain circumstances, but there are plenty of times when it's not okay to kill someone simply because they have an item. I was brutally attacked for having a SMOKE grenade on my belt once. A fucking smoke grenade, something you can commonly find in maint, just lying around. Hell, once I was killed for having picked up the Dark Blessing, because it looks like a changeling blade. On Delta I found a toy pistol, and loaded it with riot foam rounds, which can be made at the autolathe. I was killed by a valid hunter as he saw me printing the ammo, because only tators have riot foam, right? It was a cult round.

Some items should be suspect, but flat out murdering someone simply because "That is a tator item. If they have it they must mean they are a tator, thus making them valid" should not be allowed. Having a desk of suspicious cards shouldn't make you an instant valid. Hell, the whole reason for a lot of arcade rewards are supposed to be metafuckery items, and potential valid bait. Seen people killed for wearing a replica red EVA suit, or pulling out a toy sword and running at someone with it.

We also have to repeatedly explain to players:

* Entering the captain's office/armory/other high-security area and taking items has IC consequences
* Getting an AI or borg to open the door, or walking in through an already-hacked door, is not an open invitation which absolves you of any IC consequences
* Helping an antag do something can sometimes have IC consequences, even if you don't do so in a way that breaks rules
* Running around and shoving people or slipping security officers and heads isn't "doing nothing" and while if they kill you outright for it they're in the wrong, there still may be IC consequences
* Getting arrested for things you do ICly is not a violation of your rights as a player
* Getting the HoP to add access to your ID or change your job does not automatically make the person in charge of the department you beeline to accept you
* Being a security officer doesn't give you the automatic right to be a complete shithead to the crew for no reason, and being security does not absolve you of IC consequences for doing so

This is excellent and should be saved on the wiki

I second this.

[Nilons]

Jesus christ this is how far we've come.

IF YOU SEE AN ILLEGAL ITEM, AND DON'T WANT TO BE ARRESTED OR EXECUTED, REPORT IT TO SECURITY, LEAVE IT WHERE IT WAS OR PICK IT UP AND ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES.

It's fucking contraband. People are whining about getting fucked up for the highest-level of contraband. Just leave it on the fucking floor.

"Huh, that traitor I managed to disarm/kill was carrying an emag and energy sword. Well, it's contraband, better just leave it on the floor and wait for security to come get it. Oh no, Joey Greytide just ran up and looted everything. If only I had picked it up to secure it, announcing it repeatedly over the radio, and made my way to security to drop it off. Yes, there is the chance I might be randomly searched, but I openly announced over the radio what I had found, and my intentions with them. If anything, the officer might take them from me, or escort me to the brig so I can explain the situation."

It says mapspawned in the title of the thread. A traitor's esword and emag are not mapspawned.