Does the posession of Mapspawn traitor items make one valid?

[Sweets]

Bottom post of the previous page:

On sybil today I picked up the box of throwing weapons on Metastation's bar while playing as clown, following that I took the Caps spare and ran around the station until I was tased by the warden. He found the box and then executed me. Upon Ahelping I was told that being in possession of traitor items makes you valid.

Now I have THREE conflicting scenarios that all involve this box on Meta.

The first occurred sometime early 2017 where I was killed for having that box. At the time, an admin ( I think it was PKP) told the person who killed me that it was not a valid kill and warned them while reviving me.

The second occured around this November. I was playing as warden and executed two engineers who were attempting to break into the HoS' office and used the weapons in the box against me. I was told in postround (it was nuke ops) that if they hadn't used the weapons on me, I would have been warned.

Finally the third scenario is what happened just recently.

This brings me into three specific questions.

1. Does a non-antag in possession of map spawn antag items immediately become valid for the rest of the crew?

2. Does Security have the authority to execute a nonantag crew member who has surrendered, not caused any harm or attacks and is in custody when there is an acting captain?

3. Should we just remove the spawn of Syndibox and Cards and make it 100% russian revolver chance to eliminate this from happening again? What about the EMP grenades in maint and the Stetchkin that can spawn in the armory?

Title edited and information on other items added.

[Nilons]

Jesus christ this is how far we've come.

IF YOU SEE AN ILLEGAL ITEM, AND DON'T WANT TO BE ARRESTED OR EXECUTED, REPORT IT TO SECURITY, LEAVE IT WHERE IT WAS OR PICK IT UP AND ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES.

It's fucking contraband. People are whining about getting fucked up for the highest-level of contraband. Just leave it on the fucking floor.

"Huh, that traitor I managed to disarm/kill was carrying an emag and energy sword. Well, it's contraband, better just leave it on the floor and wait for security to come get it. Oh no, Joey Greytide just ran up and looted everything. If only I had picked it up to secure it, announcing it repeatedly over the radio, and made my way to security to drop it off. Yes, there is the chance I might be randomly searched, but I openly announced over the radio what I had found, and my intentions with them. If anything, the officer might take them from me, or escort me to the brig so I can explain the situation."

It says mapspawned in the title of the thread. A traitor's esword and emag are not mapspawned.

[Kel-the-Oblivious]

Jesus christ this is how far we've come.

IF YOU SEE AN ILLEGAL ITEM, AND DON'T WANT TO BE ARRESTED OR EXECUTED, REPORT IT TO SECURITY, LEAVE IT WHERE IT WAS OR PICK IT UP AND ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES.

It's fucking contraband. People are whining about getting fucked up for the highest-level of contraband. Just leave it on the fucking floor.

snip

It says mapspawned in the title of the thread. A traitor's esword and emag are not mapspawned.

I'm more pointing out the fallacy of his logic in just leaving it on the floor and hoping security comes to pick it up. Also the "Highest level of contraband" comment. A deck of suspicious cards costs 1tc, and has a single niche use. Throwing floor tiles is about as effective as using the syndie cards. Getting killed because you decided to play a game of cards with the red deck shouldn't result in a "Well, it IS contraband, so sucks to be you" response. If that is the case, why even have them onboard? If picking up the syndie balloon that sometimes spawns in maint results me in putting a huge bullseye on my back, why is it there?

Honestly, I see the metabreak items as an excuse to find shitty players. If someone is so hungry for kills that they will kill anyone they see with the slightest possibility of being an antagonist, they should be punished for being wrong. Yes, that greyshirt had a syndie balloon. An item known to spawn onboard the station. They were doing nothing remotely antagonistic, you simply saw them with the item and killed them without a word. A person like this should be punished when they are wrong.

Now, as always, IC actions are the most important factor in this. If the guy with the suspicious deck is running around hurling cards at people randomly, they deserve all the IC repercussions for their actions. If the same person is just playing around with it harmlessly, maybe using it to defend themselves when attacked, they have done nothing IC that warrants getting their skull caved in by a fire extinguisher and their corpse thrown into space by an over eager validhunter. The window for tolerance rapidly shrinks depending on the item, but blindly killing someone simply because they have an item, not what they are doing with the item is not okay in my books.

[Screemonster]

"acting like an antag" is the phrase you have to worry about when deciding whether it's okay to chop all their arms and legs off and mount them on a spike or whatever.

If you stumble your one-armed ass into medbay two minutes after screaming for help on the radio and the AI saw you get a lucky disarm and turn the tables on the esword-wielding traitor, then having that sword in your bag is not proof that you are also a traitor.
Having a deck of cards and playing cards with them doesn't prove you're a traitor.
Slipping a sec officer, honking him, then popping a smoke grenade to flee when he gets up doesn't prove you're a traitor (though you're likely getting an assbeating anyway)

If on the other hand you're acting like a shifty fuck and hacking into places you shouldn't be or following some guy around and lurking in maintenance near the back door to his office and shit like that and security get suspicious of the way you're acting and decide to search you, and they find a fucking revolver in your pocket, damn right they're gonna conclude that you're an antag.

[Qbopper]

"Huh, that traitor I managed to disarm/kill was carrying an emag and energy sword. Well, it's contraband, better just leave it on the floor and wait for security to come get it. Oh no, Joey Greytide just ran up and looted everything. If only I had picked it up to secure it, announcing it repeatedly over the radio, and made my way to security to drop it off. Yes, there is the chance I might be randomly searched, but I openly announced over the radio what I had found, and my intentions with them. If anything, the officer might take them from me, or escort me to the brig so I can explain the situation.

this doesn't really make sense because you can just PM an officer saying "hi I found a corpse with an esword on it I'm going to bring the contraband to the brig right now" because PDA messages actually are noticeable

every time i've done this i did not get lynched for having a traitor item

[WarbossLincoln]

We also have to repeatedly explain to players:

* Entering the captain's office/armory/other high-security area and taking items has IC consequences
* Getting an AI or borg to open the door, or walking in through an already-hacked door, is not an open invitation which absolves you of any IC consequences
* Helping an antag do something can sometimes have IC consequences, even if you don't do so in a way that breaks rules
* Running around and shoving people or slipping security officers and heads isn't "doing nothing" and while if they kill you outright for it they're in the wrong, there still may be IC consequences
* Getting arrested for things you do ICly is not a violation of your rights as a player
* Getting the HoP to add access to your ID or change your job does not automatically make the person in charge of the department you beeline to accept you
* Being a security officer doesn't give you the automatic right to be a complete shithead to the crew for no reason, and being security does not absolve you of IC consequences for doing so

This is excellent and should be saved on the wiki

This should pop up as a MOTD for everyone when they connect.

[WarbossLincoln]

"Huh, that traitor I managed to disarm/kill was carrying an emag and energy sword. Well, it's contraband, better just leave it on the floor and wait for security to come get it. Oh no, Joey Greytide just ran up and looted everything. If only I had picked it up to secure it, announcing it repeatedly over the radio, and made my way to security to drop it off. Yes, there is the chance I might be randomly searched, but I openly announced over the radio what I had found, and my intentions with them. If anything, the officer might take them from me, or escort me to the brig so I can explain the situation.

this doesn't really make sense because you can just PM an officer saying "hi I found a corpse with an esword on it I'm going to bring the contraband to the brig right now" because PDA messages actually are noticeable

every time i've done this i did not get lynched for having a traitor item

You could also announce over radio. "Hey I found *non lethal traitor item*, I'm going to keep it" I feel like if you did that the worst that would generally happen is Sec might not let you do that and they'll come confiscate it from you because you might be a real traitor trying to trick them. But if you announce you have X contraband and you don't do anything shitty with it, it would be shitty for Sec to do anything to you aside from take the item if they care enough.

[Qbopper]

announcing you have a traitor item is a horrible idea because people will try to steal it and people WILL miss the message and think you're valid

I guarantee you that at least one officer will miss the memo and arrest/kill you on sight

PMing security at the very least is a smarter plan, announcing that you have it on the radio should be the second thing you do

[WarbossLincoln]

Good point

[Reece]

If you caught an antag would you risk freeing them? If not then why should you expect anything else from anyone else?

If you would then you're an idiot. Antags will fuck your shut in without a moments hesitation. If there is suspicion of you being an antag and they find solid proof of it on you, then you reap what you sow homie.

Personally given time I'd cavity search you via surgery, then chem, track and remove your tongue. Toss you naked into a locked perma cell.

[Dr_bee]

If you caught an antag would you risk freeing them? If not then why should you expect anything else from anyone else?

If you would then you're an idiot. Antags will fuck your shut in without a moments hesitation. If there is suspicion of you being an antag and they find solid proof of it on you, then you reap what you sow homie.

Personally given time I'd cavity search you via surgery, then chem, track and remove your tongue. Toss you naked into a locked perma cell.

Stop playing to win, christ. Antags are what make this game actually interesting to play, if you kill them all you just get a boring as fuck round.

Personally I think notes and daybans need to be handed out for murdering people for non-capital crimes if they arent a traitor, and it doesnt matter if you "think" they are a traitor, if you kill them outside of self defense or protecting other people, or via a legal execution order from the captain, then you need to be punished SOMEHOW. There is no concept of respecting life in this game, and actually punishing people for being wrong about murder would actually stop validhunting, hard. Security would actually act like security.

[Reece]

If you caught an antag would you risk freeing them? If not then why should you expect anything else from anyone else?

If you would then you're an idiot. Antags will fuck your shut in without a moments hesitation. If there is suspicion of you being an antag and they find solid proof of it on you, then you reap what you sow homie.

Personally given time I'd cavity search you via surgery, then chem, track and remove your tongue. Toss you naked into a locked perma cell.

Stop playing to win, christ. Antags are what make this game actually interesting to play, if you kill them all you just get a boring as fuck round.

Personally I think notes and daybans need to be handed out for murdering people for non-capital crimes if they arent a traitor, and it doesnt matter if you "think" they are a traitor, if you kill them outside of self defense or protecting other people, or via a legal execution order from the captain, then you need to be punished SOMEHOW. There is no concept of respecting life in this game, and actually punishing people for being wrong about murder would actually stop validhunting, hard. Security would actually act like security.

Why? Why should I take that risk, I don't get much of a chance to play due to time and internet constraints, and the time I do play I'drather actually play than be a ghost.

Antags are there to ruin your shit, that is how they are coded, that is how they are equipped and that is how they are played by the vast majority of people. If you act like an antag; and have antag gear then you deserve to be treated like an antagonist. Why should anyone take a gamble and assume that the antag they let go isn't just going to kill them?

No one is forcing you to collect syndicate gear, or break into secure areas. The onus is on a person to not be shit, the onus is not on the person reacting to assume that the person acting like a dangerous individual known explicitely for killing others and destroying the station is just kidding. If you act like a bad guy, and then complain when your shit gets pushed in then you're either on the wrong server or too young to play.

[Cobby]

If you caught an antag would you risk freeing them? If not then why should you expect anything else from anyone else?

If you would then you're an idiot. Antags will fuck your shut in without a moments hesitation. If there is suspicion of you being an antag and they find solid proof of it on you, then you reap what you sow homie.

Personally given time I'd cavity search you via surgery, then chem, track and remove your tongue. Toss you naked into a locked perma cell.

Stop playing to win, christ. Antags are what make this game actually interesting to play, if you kill them all you just get a boring as fuck round.

Personally I think notes and daybans need to be handed out for murdering people for non-capital crimes if they arent a traitor, and it doesnt matter if you "think" they are a traitor, if you kill them outside of self defense or protecting other people, or via a legal execution order from the captain, then you need to be punished SOMEHOW. There is no concept of respecting life in this game, and actually punishing people for being wrong about murder would actually stop validhunting, hard. Security would actually act like security.

Only if we restrict antags by the same token.

[Qbopper]

"punish people for making incorrect kills" sounds like a terrible idea, you'd have everyone pussyfooting around violence until there's irrefutable proof that someone is valid and it would only make things worse

[Dr_bee]

"punish people for making incorrect kills" sounds like a terrible idea, you'd have everyone pussyfooting around violence until there's irrefutable proof that someone is valid and it would only make things worse

How so? It would leave room for actual roleplaying instead of just searching for an excuse to click on a sprite until it goes horizontal, there are other methods of dealing with antagonists besides murder, perma and the gulag exist for a reason, force borging exists for a reason, not every problem needs to be solved via summary execution.

[Anonmare]

I think we shouldn't kill people for merely possessing contraband but I'm the cancer killing /tg/ so what do I know

If you commit an out-and-out crime and have syndicate contraband on you when you get caught, then it's on you for having it in the first place. If you really don't want to get valided, don't handle the contraband at all, just PDA the detective/HoS/Captain/Warden/Security Officer where and what it is - if some other chump picks it up and he gets valided, that's on him.

[Qbopper]

"punish people for making incorrect kills" sounds like a terrible idea, you'd have everyone pussyfooting around violence until there's irrefutable proof that someone is valid and it would only make things worse

How so? It would leave room for actual roleplaying instead of just searching for an excuse to click on a sprite until it goes horizontal, there are other methods of dealing with antagonists besides murder, perma and the gulag exist for a reason, force borging exists for a reason, not every problem needs to be solved via summary execution.

yeah i agree with you but banning people for making mistakes in a game where the entire game is built around making mistakes is not a good plan

there is 100% a better way to discourage jumping to murder than to ban half the playerbase

[Dr_bee]

"punish people for making incorrect kills" sounds like a terrible idea, you'd have everyone pussyfooting around violence until there's irrefutable proof that someone is valid and it would only make things worse

How so? It would leave room for actual roleplaying instead of just searching for an excuse to click on a sprite until it goes horizontal, there are other methods of dealing with antagonists besides murder, perma and the gulag exist for a reason, force borging exists for a reason, not every problem needs to be solved via summary execution.

yeah i agree with you but banning people for making mistakes in a game where the entire game is built around making mistakes is not a good plan

there is 100% a better way to discourage jumping to murder than to ban half the playerbase

well I am not talking about lengthy bans, dayban max, possibly just getting booted from the round might be a better method. I dont know. Right now killing non-antags for very flimsy reasons and getting away with it is very easy. "Act like an antag, get treated like one" has gone a tad too far when things that can be solved by confiscation are used as an excuse for murder.

Why even have metabreaker items if using them just gets you killed with no consequence, I know ban-baiting is shit but still.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

"punish people for making incorrect kills" sounds like a terrible idea, you'd have everyone pussyfooting around violence until there's irrefutable proof that someone is valid and it would only make things worse

How so? It would leave room for actual roleplaying instead of just searching for an excuse to click on a sprite until it goes horizontal, there are other methods of dealing with antagonists besides murder, perma and the gulag exist for a reason, force borging exists for a reason, not every problem needs to be solved via summary execution.

yeah i agree with you but banning people for making mistakes in a game where the entire game is built around making mistakes is not a good plan

there is 100% a better way to discourage jumping to murder than to ban half the playerbase

well I am not talking about lengthy bans, dayban max, possibly just getting booted from the round might be a better method. I dont know. Right now killing non-antags for very flimsy reasons and getting away with it is very easy. "Act like an antag, get treated like one" has gone a tad too far when things that can be solved by confiscation are used as an excuse for murder.

Why even have metabreaker items if using them just gets you killed with no consequence, I know ban-baiting is shit but still.

the problem is that you cant do this without limiting antags to not be silent terminator killing machines who can slaughter and destroy everything and whip insta-kill guns from their underpants or apply silent unseeable stuns without warning, or the crew will be killed to a man every single round.

And since tgstation has been clear for years that limiting antags beyond "Dont sabotage team objectives" is a no no, it just cant happen