Powergaming, security, and you

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.

Moderators: In-Game Head Admins, In-Game Game Master

Forum rules
Read these board rules before posting or you'll get reprimanded.
Threads without replies for 30 days will be automatically locked.
User avatar
bandit
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby bandit » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:34 pm #30683

Wait, people are seriously saying it's "powergaming" to take note of who's working toxins? Not bursting into toxins being all "I HEARD YOU WERE MAKING BOMBS PERMA JUST IN CASE," just... making a note, with the security cameras that 50% of the warden's entire job is to monitor, to gather evidence in the case of mass bombings?

Are you out of your fucking mind?

(The AI guide tells AIs to keep an eye on toxins and make a note of what's going on in there. Now AIs are powergaming too, I guess.)
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls



User avatar
cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby cedarbridge » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:41 pm #30688

Scott wrote:Security should get toys from the Science department, but that mostly never happens besides EDs being built. People play robotics to make mechs for themselves and when was the last time Security ordered better weapons from R&D?

I routinely call sec down (particularly the detective) when NV Huds are ready and occasionally toss the detetive a stun revolver for style points.

User avatar
NikNakFlak
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:08 pm
Byond Username: NikNakflak

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby NikNakFlak » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:56 pm #30689

You people litterly take this game way too seriously, and treat it more like a FPS rather than a simulation roleplaying game.
REDACTED
pm for deets

User avatar
cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby cedarbridge » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:22 pm #30690

NikNakFlak wrote:You people litterly take this game way too seriously, and treat it more like a FPS rather than a simulation roleplaying game.

Except every rationale I listed was a very clear and valid IC justification. There's nothing RDM about it.

User avatar
Arete
 
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:55 am
Byond Username: Arete

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Arete » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:33 pm #30695

NikNakFlak wrote:You people litterly take this game way too seriously, and treat it more like a FPS rather than a simulation roleplaying game.


Applying this logic only to security is extremely shitty.

User avatar
bandit
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby bandit » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:34 pm #30696

NikNakFlak wrote:You people litterly take this game way too seriously, and treat it more like a FPS rather than a simulation roleplaying game.


How the fuck is keeping an eye on toxins remotely like a "FPS"? If it's a simulation/roleplaying game, security officers are probably going to keep an eye on potentially secure and/or dangerous areas. You know, like IRL security officers. You cannot just use words without considering what they mean.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls

User avatar
Arete
 
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:55 am
Byond Username: Arete

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Arete » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:53 pm #30701

Arete wrote:
NikNakFlak wrote:You people litterly take this game way too seriously, and treat it more like a FPS rather than a simulation roleplaying game.


Applying this logic only to security is extremely shitty.


I figure I should try to put this in a more objective way. The kind of simulation roleplaying game you wish to create requires volunteers to play the role of security. The policies you're advocating here are so unsatisfying and appear so unfair to prospective security players that they make the kind of game you're trying to create untenable. Roleplaying policies that are more restrictive for some players than others can work, as we can see by the number of volunteers for silicon positions. However, this is only possible when those positions have interesting, satisfying mechanics. Basically, something has to give: either the policy, or the game mechanics. I believe the mappers are on record as saying that they were assuming that the policy approach would be taken and so they designed the brig under the expectation that security would be allowed to powergame a bit.

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Scott » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:31 pm #30705

When the fuck was that ever established? The brig is vulnerable because, like every other department, it is flawed by design so things can happen, not as an excuse to use portable barriers. Which I feel I should stress again, are very weak. Every time I see barrier I blow it up, because fuck you.

Apsis
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:26 pm

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Apsis » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:46 pm #30710

bandit wrote:Wait, people are seriously saying it's "powergaming" to take note of who's working toxins? Not bursting into toxins being all "I HEARD YOU WERE MAKING BOMBS PERMA JUST IN CASE," just... making a note, with the security cameras that 50% of the warden's entire job is to monitor, to gather evidence in the case of mass bombings?

Are you out of your fucking mind?

(The AI guide tells AIs to keep an eye on toxins and make a note of what's going on in there. Now AIs are powergaming too, I guess.)

This is one of the reasons why I stopped playing a Detective.

Anyway, knowing how and when to use the tools of your department is a good thing to know. Honestly, It's better to not show or tell what you've got until shit goes down.

Incomptinence
 
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
Byond Username: Incomptinence

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Incomptinence » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:46 pm #30726

NikNakFlak wrote:You write down the name of the scientist in toxins, for what? Just in case he just "happens" to be a traitor and bombs everything? Every round, you take down the name of the toxins guy on the remote chance that he may just be a traitor? I have no respose to that. That is power/metagamey as shit and you should feel bad for doing it.

That is totally IC and makes sense why shouldn't the bomb maker be primarily responsible for the bombs? It isn't even play to win necessarily since blow up half the departments is not an objective and you are not even likely to arrest the guy if you catch him mid bombings since they can easily just plonk down an open valve when they are about to be caught.
Deploying bombs once made takes a minute or two why should security not make the slightest attempt to intelligently prevent it in the scant seconds they can? The guy may not even be the bomber they might have legit made the bombs as a non antagonist (actually a perfectly normal thing to do that happens a lot) then an antagonist stole them. Your example isn't even them stalking the bomb maker it is just knowing "this guy was working in toxins!" Is it meta to ask a role call of officer departmental roles at round start too? Is it meta for the RD to ask for a role call of their own damn department?

It would be meta gaming and rule 1 breaking to stalk toxins like a hawk and raiding it to prevent bombs being completed ever. I am pretty sure bad silicons fill that role better than security can though. A camera computer is round start equipment available to all officers and toxins is right on the list, the ability to take a peek at toxins has been there forever and it is totally normal, the sec officers spawn in the same room as one of the computers even. You might as well say engineers are obliged to allow sabotage because the big scary meta oh my!
Last edited by Incomptinence on Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Psyentific » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:55 pm #30727

NikNakFlak wrote:I'm on my phone right now, expect grammar and spelling mistakes.

That being said, a lot of things stated in this thread as what the Head of Security can do, is shit.
The biggest one being, steelpoints "I write down the name of the guy working in toxins just in case bombs." Or "Barricades on the maintenence doors and taking the securitron from the gulag"
I say this.
WHY?
You write down the name of the scientist in toxins, for what? Just in case he just "happens" to be a traitor and bombs everything? Every round, you take down the name of the toxins guy on the remote chance that he may just be a traitor? I have no respose to that. That is power/metagamey as shit and you should feel bad for doing it. Likewise for barricades on the maintenece doors. You are assuming that someone is going to automatically break into security or emag the door. Assuming. Assumptions. Preperation for antags that you do not even know exists yet.

Something I heavily agree with Quartscrystal is that security is a responsive force. Word of cult around? Sure barricade security. Murderboner, sure barricade security. Doing this at roundstart in the anticipation or a conflict that you have no idea if it even exists or not? Shit, power/metagamey, stupid. It's all about the when and why rather than the how. Powergaming is the over-prepardness for a situation that you are assuming/metaing is going to happen rather than in reponse to what is happening

As for dragging a securitron around, it depends on the situation. Murderboner, zero gravity, I might think its fine. Getting the gulag securitron in preperation for a conflict that may not even exist? Shit, and you should get bwoinked.


Get fucked Niknak. Or, actually, let me address each point individually.

>Barriers in maint
Escape Pod maint is one of the biggest holes in the brig. Looking at it from the outside, that's the quickest, easiest, and quietest way to go from zero to armory. Any Warden that doesn't do something about that is derelict in his duties. The barriers exist for exactly this reason. Armory security is one of the few things you shouldn't be reactionary about.

>Assuming antags do not exist
you what, mate
It's an incredibly uncommon occurance when some sort of antagonist doesn't exist. Even so, people will self-antag. Performing basic preparations is mandatory, and "Somewhere on the station there is a traitor" is always a valid assumption. If you want me to assume there's no antags on the station, boost extended up to, what? 50% chance?

>Taking note of the toxins scientist is powergaming
you what, mate
So, so so so. In the off chance that everything explodes, you want Security to start from nothing? Admittedly, it's the off chance, but something like that is part of a Warden's job, and I'm going to start doing it every round now that Steelpoint's made me aware of it.


If you're going to bwoink me for doing my job well, then I'll see you in policy discussion and/or admin complaints.


Edit: Quoting this, because excellent post.
Arete wrote:
Arete wrote:
NikNakFlak wrote:You people litterly take this game way too seriously, and treat it more like a FPS rather than a simulation roleplaying game.


Applying this logic only to security is extremely shitty.


I figure I should try to put this in a more objective way. The kind of simulation roleplaying game you wish to create requires volunteers to play the role of security. The policies you're advocating here are so unsatisfying and appear so unfair to prospective security players that they make the kind of game you're trying to create untenable. Roleplaying policies that are more restrictive for some players than others can work, as we can see by the number of volunteers for silicon positions. However, this is only possible when those positions have interesting, satisfying mechanics. Basically, something has to give: either the policy, or the game mechanics. I believe the mappers are on record as saying that they were assuming that the policy approach would be taken and so they designed the brig under the expectation that security would be allowed to powergame a bit.

For the longest time, I played Cargo Security. That is, I'd be a Quartermaster with ablative, e-gun, handcuffs in pocket, and when someone screamed "HELP MEDBAY" I'd be out the door.
Y'know why? Because I was afraid to play Sec. Because, despite filling the same general role and performing the same general actions, I didn't want the elevated responsiblity, accountability, or behavioural standards that Sec is expected to conform to. I didn't want to play by space law, and I wanted to be able to shoot lasers at greytide without half the station forming a lynchmob and/or adminpms. I liked being able to murderspace people when they got a through dunking and came back for more.

Because playing Security sucks, for myriad reasons which have all been talked to death.

Even now that I play Sec fairly often, I play Warden or Detective. Not Officer, never HoS. I don't want to be the one with an aghost hovering over my shoulder, a clown slipstealing my shoes, a grey pulling my prisoner or a lawyer trying to destroy my hard work.
Last edited by Psyentific on Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:09 am, edited 4 times in total.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

Incomptinence
 
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
Byond Username: Incomptinence

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Incomptinence » Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:03 am #30730

I personally would not barricade sec maint ahead of a break in. For the opposite reasons you would think, I want them to try and rob my armoury so I have a chance to catch them in the act. P2W bizarro warden.

User avatar
UtterNewbie
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:25 pm

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby UtterNewbie » Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:29 am #30735

Scott wrote:When the fuck was that ever established? The brig is vulnerable because, like every other department, it is flawed by design so things can happen, not as an excuse to use portable barriers.

Ikarrus wrote:Brig Designer here. The brig is designed to allow a little reinforcement with flashers/barriers. Barricade count had been reduced, nimber of weak points had been increased, and flashers have been nerfed to discourage regular use in non-emergencies.

If we're going to start banning wardens who use these tools then I will have to consider buffing the brig through other means, which i think wouldn't make it as fun. The current brig allows for options for players. What's being suggested by skorvold is too selectively micromanagy for my liking.

There seems to be an awful lack of coherence when it comes to administration and dealing with security.

Security is well equipped and able to deal with a high population server, even while being swarmed every round by people just looking for an excuse to fuck with them. Problem is they are not allowed to. There are no guidelines as to what is and what is not acceptable, and over time this just became worse. Any time security does something competent they are met with ahelps and whining from the ones arrested through IC and OOC / deadchat.

To illustrate how bad things have gotten, there was a pirate event not long ago, an actual station raid by pirates. I was a security officer that round, and contrary to popular belief I was roleplaying with the general sent to inspect the station, acting as his personal guard for almost entire shift. On our way we met several assholes going out of character and labeling my beepsky with "is covered in semen" tag and otherwise laughing and pointing fingers calling me unrobust IC for dragging a securitron. Now note this was while speaking to a nanotransen general escorted by said officer with securitron, doing department inspections. Tell me who is the one lacking RP here.

Later into round the pirates made their move and we were sent to fight them off, I asked the warden several times to give out appropriate gear to deal with the threat, even in the presence of a GENERAL he refused arguing nobody needs ablative armor as it's useless. Against a full blown station invasion. In the end he didn't give it up, and we went to fight the pirates. Of course first assault was a massive defeat, we ended up being stun shot just as we met the pirates. Who would have thought.

Point here being, there are security players that so scared of the unwritten policy and frequent bwoinking that they will not even give out appropriate gear under an invasion event, let alone touch the armory in any way for entire rounds. I seen blob rounds where people refused to give out or use riot gear.

I'm going to outright say it: there are admins that are biased against security and there are players that are grudging so strongly against security that they will hate you just for wearing your gasmask. This is not a fun environment to play in and it is not roleplaying in any way to disrespect or go out of your way to fuck with a security force existing to protect you. You're being fucked with IC and OOC as sec, I firmly believe that antags rolls are not the reason security is understaffed regularly. It is the goto job if you want to be hated and bwoinked.

I had people tell me IC I'm shit/unrobust faggot/insulted over radio before I even interacted with them, just because I dragged a securitron.
I don't go around telling virologist that he's an unrobust faggot for giving himself demigod virus.
I don't go telling geneticists that he's an unrobust faggot because he hulked himself.
I don't go telling roboticists they are unrobust faggots for making mechs for themselves.

Here's the kicker, dealing with securitrons doesn't even require both your braincells. E-mag sec huds, set officer dragging it to arrest. Every single one of you whining that I'm the unrobust faggot, look at yourself.

I'm just so fucking sick and tired of this attitude. I didn't go around the station looking to fuck with people, ever. Not once have I went out WANTING to make an arrest. I went out looking to protect the crew and the station every single fucking time. It's not fun processing arrests, it's not fun having to waste time explaining your crime and dragging you to the brig, then explaining it again to warden and then seeing you scream shitcurity. It's not fun to brig people.

We're playing on a server where admins themselves abuse game mechanics to their fullest as antags, not to do their objectives but to murderbone, yet the department dealing with them is expected to be mentally handicapped and incompetent because THATS PROPER ROLEPLAY.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:03 am #30750

How many times do I have to say this. People just love to hate Security players, full stop. The only possible Security play style where you won't get decried is if you s̶u̶c̶k̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶g̶l̶e̶ ̶a̶s̶s̶i̶s̶t̶a̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶d̶ simply don't play as Security.

Despite the fact that Security gets such a bloody hard time, cause apparently powergaming is only bad if your part of Security, I still enjoy the role. But if I'm forced to literally shoot myself in the foot every single round and wait around until someone shoves a bomb up my rear end before I do can anything, I'll just stop playing Security.

I already get a absurd amount of *bwoinks* all ready whenever I do anything. It gets old but I deal with it.
Image

User avatar
Kangaraptor
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:33 am
Location: dank memes
Byond Username: Kangaraptor

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Kangaraptor » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:07 am #30751

So i've concluded that there's only two things in this thread:

security players screaming 'wah i'm a victim'

and people who don't realise their fun isn't the only fun that matters (both sides inclusive)

conclusion: this is absolutely retarded and none of you are going to make any ground.
Image

User avatar
cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:27 am #30755

Kangaraptor wrote:So i've concluded that there's only two things in this thread:

security players screaming 'wah i'm a victim'

and people who don't realise their fun isn't the only fun that matters (both sides inclusive)

conclusion: this is absolutely retarded and none of you are going to make any ground.

Glad we have your uninformed and unneeded opinion here to add zero to that discussion but more shitposting.

Frankly, as soon as the word "shitcurity" became common usage, there should have already been red flags going off. Of course, now that its cool to hate sec for "ruining your fun" its functionally become an OOC in IC commentary. Of course, it would never be punished as such because that would be giving security benefit of the doubt.

We already discussed this in the thread about command roles. Nobody volunteers for them because you functionally just get shit on for doing so all the time. In fact, there's even an entire game mode dedicated to shitting on you. So far, what I'm getting from the response in this thread is that the appropriate action taken by both groups is simply take one for the tea server and let everyone else have fun at your expense because its part of the role (apparently!)

User avatar
Kangaraptor
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:33 am
Location: dank memes
Byond Username: Kangaraptor

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Kangaraptor » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:42 am #30759

cedarbridge wrote:
Kangaraptor wrote:So i've concluded that there's only two things in this thread:

security players screaming 'wah i'm a victim'

and people who don't realise their fun isn't the only fun that matters (both sides inclusive)

conclusion: this is absolutely retarded and none of you are going to make any ground.

Glad we have your uninformed and unneeded opinion here to add zero to that discussion but more shitposting.

Frankly, as soon as the word "shitcurity" became common usage, there should have already been red flags going off. Of course, now that its cool to hate sec for "ruining your fun" its functionally become an OOC in IC commentary. Of course, it would never be punished as such because that would be giving security benefit of the doubt.

We already discussed this in the thread about command roles. Nobody volunteers for them because you functionally just get shit on for doing so all the time. In fact, there's even an entire game mode dedicated to shitting on you. So far, what I'm getting from the response in this thread is that the appropriate action taken by both groups is simply take one for the tea server and let everyone else have fun at your expense because its part of the role (apparently!)


>uninformed

Nah, nah. Been on both sides of the fence often enough, so don't try dismissing anything with that shit. Did you ever stop to consider that people hate sec not because it's cool, but many sec players give very good reasons not to like them? Rampant mutesec, security and condoned hopcurity 'confiscating' legitimately gained equipment not used in any crimes for personal use, all that shit. None of it gets dealt with and it all gets palmed off as 'IC', so people learn to hate sec. Namefagging greyshits notwithstanding (looking at you, Bowchief). Personally I've never encountered this all-pervasive, deep-seeded malice you and Steelpoint describe when playing as sec; maybe I'm just 'willfully ignorant' or 'uninformed'. There's more to it than 'wah i'm a victim qqqqqqq', stop trying to behave like everyone's out to get you and actually take a minute to examine why people behave the way they do.

As for 'shitposting', well, whatever you say champ.
Image

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:51 am #30761

When you continually deal with people always preforming bad actions. Such as the always 50/50 chance of finding a non-antag in the Captains Quarters within the first 5 minutes of round start, you start to grow a opinion of 'us vs them' with most of the crew. I did mention one time that a good portion of my deaths in Sec come from a silent sting/parapen + stun prod, but in addition a good portion of my deaths also come from round with a large amount of non-antag rioters, and that in between all of that the one antag makes a move and I mistake them for another greytider.

I don't usually end up in shit situations, the only time I got truly pissed of was when a antag HoP convinced most of the crew to revolt against Security because a lawyer (who got banned) went ape shit when I confiscated his ill-gotten all access ID, and that was because the fact that most of the crew decided to revolt against Security at the drop of a hat.

Ultimately what this thread has presented is that admins have widely differing view of powergaming and how to handle it. Perhaps I've been fortunate to avoid admins who take a very dim view of Security procedures.
Image

User avatar
Kangaraptor
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:33 am
Location: dank memes
Byond Username: Kangaraptor

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Kangaraptor » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:57 am #30762

Steelpoint wrote:When you continually deal with people always preforming bad actions. Such as the always 50/50 chance of finding a non-antag in the Captains Quarters within the first 5 minutes of round start, you start to grow a opinion of 'us vs them' with most of the crew. I did mention one time that a good portion of my deaths in Sec come from a silent sting/parapen + stun prod, but in addition a good portion of my deaths also come from round with a large amount of non-antag rioters, and that in between all of that the one antag makes a move and I mistake them for another greytider.

I don't usually end up in shit situations, the only time I got truly pissed of was when a antag HoP convinced most of the crew to revolt against Security because a lawyer (who got banned) went ape shit when I confiscated his ill-gotten all access ID, and that was because the fact that most of the crew decided to revolt against Security at the drop of a hat.

Ultimately what this thread has presented is that admins have widely differing view of powergaming and how to handle it. Perhaps I've been fortunate to avoid admins who take a very dim view of Security procedures.


Maybe it's time to consider taking on roles outside of sec if your attitude toward other players is becoming that narrow.

And it's no secret that the admins have differing views on what constitutes powergaming. We've seen that much a million times over, but whenever someone suggests forming new policy or amending old policy to create a single uniform definition of what 'is or is not x' people get up in arms about 'MUH POLICY' and 'MUH RULES'.

What do you want? Inconsistent rulings or streamlined policy?
Image

User avatar
cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:00 am #30763

Kangaraptor wrote:Nah, nah. Been on both sides of the fence often enough, so don't try dismissing anything with that shit. Did you ever stop to consider that people hate sec not because it's cool, but many sec players give very good reasons not to like them? Rampant mutesec, security and condoned hopcurity 'confiscating' legitimately gained equipment not used in any crimes for personal use, all that shit. None of it gets dealt with and it all gets palmed off as 'IC', so people learn to hate sec. Namefagging greyshits notwithstanding (looking at you, Bowchief). Personally I've never encountered this all-pervasive, deep-seeded malice you and Steelpoint describe when playing as sec; maybe I'm just 'willfully ignorant' or 'uninformed'. There's more to it than 'wah i'm a victim qqqqqqq', stop trying to behave like everyone's out to get you and actually take a minute to examine why people behave the way they do.

So what you're saying is, security was asking for it and should stop dressing that way huh?

Come off it. Security is literally the only job on the station where doing your job will get you admin attention. That's not "bawww," that's verifiable. This server has legitimately built up a culture where seasoned sec doesn't want to put up with the shit anymore and plays other roles and validhunts instead. This happened for all of the reasons already discussed in this thread. If you've never seen these things or if you didn't bother to read that part of the thread, then I guess the "willfully ignorant" thing is apt.

Since we're playing this from the other side. I'm no fan of mutesec, but I wonder why that might be a thing. What generally comes from talking to somebody at the time of arrest?
1) Random greyshirt sets your arrestee loose
2) Traitor/rev buddy jumps you
3) They yell "din du nuffin" "omg AI they're killing me" etc etc
4) (probably 5% of cases based on asspull) The arrestee says something of value that leads to tracking down an actual law breaker in the case of a wrongful arrest.

The rest esentially boils down to "OMG SHITCURITY ARRESTING ME 4NORAISN" bullshit. There's very little security historically gains from listening to anyone they arrest. This is a problem for good RP, not because sec are assholes (probably) but because the cultural response has taken the utility away from doing so.

User avatar
Saegrimr
 
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm
Byond Username: Saegrimr

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Saegrimr » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:08 am #30765

cedarbridge wrote:
Kangaraptor wrote:Rampant mutesec, security and condoned hopcurity 'confiscating' legitimately gained equipment not used in any crimes for personal use, all that shit. None of it gets dealt with and it all gets palmed off as 'IC', so people learn to hate sec. Namefagging greyshits notwithstanding (looking at you, Bowchief).
There's very little security historically gains from listening to anyone they arrest. This is a problem for good RP, not because sec are assholes (probably) but because the cultural response has taken the utility away from doing so.


Gee this is starting to sound like a problem with the greytidey playerbase and less about security.
Oh, wait...
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.

User avatar
Kangaraptor
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:33 am
Location: dank memes
Byond Username: Kangaraptor

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Kangaraptor » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:10 am #30767

cedarbridge wrote:
Kangaraptor wrote:Nah, nah. Been on both sides of the fence often enough, so don't try dismissing anything with that shit. Did you ever stop to consider that people hate sec not because it's cool, but many sec players give very good reasons not to like them? Rampant mutesec, security and condoned hopcurity 'confiscating' legitimately gained equipment not used in any crimes for personal use, all that shit. None of it gets dealt with and it all gets palmed off as 'IC', so people learn to hate sec. Namefagging greyshits notwithstanding (looking at you, Bowchief). Personally I've never encountered this all-pervasive, deep-seeded malice you and Steelpoint describe when playing as sec; maybe I'm just 'willfully ignorant' or 'uninformed'. There's more to it than 'wah i'm a victim qqqqqqq', stop trying to behave like everyone's out to get you and actually take a minute to examine why people behave the way they do.

So what you're saying is, security was asking for it and should stop dressing that way huh?

Come off it. Security is literally the only job on the station where doing your job will get you admin attention. That's not "bawww," that's verifiable. This server has legitimately built up a culture where seasoned sec doesn't want to put up with the shit anymore and plays other roles and validhunts instead. This happened for all of the reasons already discussed in this thread. If you've never seen these things or if you didn't bother to read that part of the thread, then I guess the "willfully ignorant" thing is apt.

Since we're playing this from the other side. I'm no fan of mutesec, but I wonder why that might be a thing. What generally comes from talking to somebody at the time of arrest?
1) Random greyshirt sets your arrestee loose
2) Traitor/rev buddy jumps you
3) They yell "din du nuffin" "omg AI they're killing me" etc etc
4) (probably 5% of cases based on asspull) The arrestee says something of value that leads to tracking down an actual law breaker in the case of a wrongful arrest.

The rest esentially boils down to "OMG SHITCURITY ARRESTING ME 4NORAISN" bullshit. There's very little security historically gains from listening to anyone they arrest. This is a problem for good RP, not because sec are assholes (probably) but because the cultural response has taken the utility away from doing so.


No, that isn't what I said; I said behave like shit and get treated like shit, it's a very different thing.

I've read the thread. A few times over, I might add. If you can't deal with the ahelps, then fuck off to another job; can't stand the heat, get out of the reactor. Ironically, the validhunters you're talking about often become greyshits themselves, that much I have seen. Trying to steal shit from sec in order to go get their validboners on isn't unheard of.

As for the RP vs assholes, why can't it be both? People on Sybil at least are equal part retarded and douchebags. For every one mutesec who's just a jaded vet sick of listening to people, I can pretty much guarantee you at least two other cases of mutesec are just shitlers who can't be bothered even explaining why they silently arrested you in the bar and chucked you in the brig while you wait down a seven minute timer that you may or may not have earned.

I'm not trying to say sec should be treated like shit, I'm trying to say people crying about how 'no1 rikey muh redshirt' should consider their own behaviour as well. Greyshits suck, yes, the yellowtide sucks, yes. Rev rounds suck (and also aren't all that frequent), but that doesn't excuse just being a cunt because muh redshirt.
Image

Raven776
 
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:51 pm
Byond Username: Raven776

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Raven776 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:14 am #30769

One time as security, we caught some suspicion that someone in science was emagging robots. Generally, all the usual red flags went off...

Shitty law 1 or law 2 reasons for doing the things the borgs do, ignoring requests, not stating laws, robotics shutters were down, all the borgs were security borgs but didn't ask for security headset access (no AI either), the borgs would instantly come to the RD when he called, the borgs followed people randomly, and then the kicker went down when we were arming up to figure out what the fuck was going on. As we were in the brig with an ion rifle in plain view, we asked the borg one last time what its laws were. It locked the brig doors and ran away.

Soooo then we raid science. We rush in, lock the borgs down, deconstruct the security borg (despite the HoS wanting to blow them all, I demanded we lock them down and save the MMIs). So we decon the security borg, chase the RD around as he runs into the maint tunnels around science (we don't have any maint access so we weren't going to chase him in there), evidently he had a robotics control console somewhere because the borgs came back to life.

Now, I've got an MMI in my hand, and I told it after I freed it from its body that I was gonna get it reborged or cloned if he wanted. No real big deal, he was FORCED to do evil, right?

Well, instead he starts to yell, 'IT WASN'T EVEN THE RD WHO EMAGGED ME!' And I ask who it was, he continues to rant that we had the wrong guy. As I walk by robotics, I see the HoP making a borg. That raised a red flag, but then the MMI shouted that it was INDEED the HoP and not the RD. I should have realized he was lying because he waited until he and I both saw the HoP to say anything, but...

So I cuff the HoP, start trying to search him, and a mining borg waltzes on in... Being afraid of getting bwoinked, I didn't immediately bust this borg up (especially considering the HoP was now very confused as to why he was in cuffs and he assumed I am the most incompetent person this side of the galaxy, blowing up a borg in front of him adds to the circusry), and then the borg, of course, begins to stun and murder me and the officer I was with. The MMI of course starts to give him advice on how best to kill me and the other officer.

Now, I'm just a bit confused in deadchat afterwards. Can't really see the HoP doing anything nefarious, the dead RD is admitting to emagging the borgs...

Fast forward to after the round, the person I went through quite a bit of pain to deconstruct instead of just outright blow claims he's proud of misleading me into arresting the HoP and getting me killed and the officer I was with gibbed because 'security was just a bunch of dicks.'

There is not a single damn thing I did to this guy besides my job, and I did it in the way that cost me and other people I had these stupidly small connections with just so HE didn't get shafted from the whole deal.

And everyone agreed that his indirect non-antag murder was completely justified because it was against security.

The fact that him going out of his way to permanently remove others from the round when he didn't have antag status any longer was alright and endorsed by the admins is disgusting just because the people he took out were wearing red.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:19 am #30771

I was the HoS in that round.

That round was pretty rough, lots of accusations of powergaming and shit security. I did find it in poor taste that not only did the MMI lie to Security, but that people actually supported the MMI in lieing to Sec.

If its any consolation, I found the MMI after the RD was executed and borgs were all blown, the MMI really wanted another borg body, I retorted that I would get its brain placed into a human body and cloned. It subsequently (along with the mining borgs MMI) went braindead.
Image

User avatar
Arete
 
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:55 am
Byond Username: Arete

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Arete » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:00 am #30784

Kangaraptor wrote:Nah, nah. Been on both sides of the fence often enough, so don't try dismissing anything with that shit. Did you ever stop to consider that people hate sec not because it's cool, but many sec players give very good reasons not to like them? Rampant mutesec, security and condoned hopcurity 'confiscating' legitimately gained equipment not used in any crimes for personal use, all that shit. None of it gets dealt with and it all gets palmed off as 'IC', so people learn to hate sec. Namefagging greyshits notwithstanding (looking at you, Bowchief). Personally I've never encountered this all-pervasive, deep-seeded malice you and Steelpoint describe when playing as sec; maybe I'm just 'willfully ignorant' or 'uninformed'. There's more to it than 'wah i'm a victim qqqqqqq', stop trying to behave like everyone's out to get you and actually take a minute to examine why people behave the way they do.


Okay. What's your examination of why people choose not to play security, and what policy solutions do you think are feasible?

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Psyentific » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:03 am #30786

Steelpoint wrote:I was the HoS in that round.

That round was pretty rough, lots of accusations of powergaming and shit security. I did find it in poor taste that not only did the MMI lie to Security, but that people actually supported the MMI in lieing to Sec.

If its any consolation, I found the MMI after the RD was executed and borgs were all blown, the MMI really wanted another borg body, I retorted that I would get its brain placed into a human body and cloned. It subsequently (along with the mining borgs MMI) went braindead.

Could you file a ban request on that guy? Because holy shit
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

Raven776
 
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:51 pm
Byond Username: Raven776

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Raven776 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:17 am #30794

Psyentific wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:I was the HoS in that round.

That round was pretty rough, lots of accusations of powergaming and shit security. I did find it in poor taste that not only did the MMI lie to Security, but that people actually supported the MMI in lieing to Sec.

If its any consolation, I found the MMI after the RD was executed and borgs were all blown, the MMI really wanted another borg body, I retorted that I would get its brain placed into a human body and cloned. It subsequently (along with the mining borgs MMI) went braindead.

Could you file a ban request on that guy? Because holy shit


There were admins present and I personally filed it away as 'that round was a clusterfuck so no one's likely to get banned for anything.' Basically, I find his actions shitty but I can't ENTIRELY account for everything that went up to that point. I don't know if he was secretly abused by security in a back room before becoming a borg, I can't tell whether or not he found something truly detestable by me playing the littlest warden that didn't wanna leave the brig, and I could hardly keep track of anything amidst small amounts of lag and random accusations and wild radio chatter.

There were admins present, I AHELPED the moment I realized something was very wrong with what happened, and as far as I'm aware nothing came of it so I assume there's something I don't know or I'm particularly biased. It likely didn't help that I frustratedly said in OOC chat after the round that if I ever found an MMI trying to murder me like that in a round again, I'd go out of my way to space it. People seemed to think that that was an even shittier thing to do than being a murderous MMI.

User avatar
bandit
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby bandit » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:29 am #30796

Kangaraptor wrote:As for the RP vs assholes, why can't it be both? People on Sybil at least are equal part retarded and douchebags. For every one mutesec who's just a jaded vet sick of listening to people, I can pretty much guarantee you at least two other cases of mutesec are just shitlers who can't be bothered even explaining why they silently arrested you in the bar and chucked you in the brig while you wait down a seven minute timer that you may or may not have earned.


Because every second you stop moving in a public hallway to type out a full explanation for your arrest is a second a graytider can and WILL steal your prisoner away from you, attempt to slip you and steal your ID/weaponry, or otherwise fuck with you. I'm sorry that this is news to you, but that is pretty much the situation. The way I see it, there are two options:

1) You're innocent, at which point security will search/question you in the brig and you will go free. Believe it or not, this does happen.
2) You're guilty, at which point it really doesn't matter where security questions you because you'll get busted either way.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls

Raven776
 
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:51 pm
Byond Username: Raven776

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Raven776 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:56 am #30802

bandit wrote:
Kangaraptor wrote:As for the RP vs assholes, why can't it be both? People on Sybil at least are equal part retarded and douchebags. For every one mutesec who's just a jaded vet sick of listening to people, I can pretty much guarantee you at least two other cases of mutesec are just shitlers who can't be bothered even explaining why they silently arrested you in the bar and chucked you in the brig while you wait down a seven minute timer that you may or may not have earned.


Because every second you stop moving in a public hallway to type out a full explanation for your arrest is a second a graytider can and WILL steal your prisoner away from you, attempt to slip you and steal your ID/weaponry, or otherwise fuck with you. I'm sorry that this is news to you, but that is pretty much the situation. The way I see it, there are two options:

1) You're innocent, at which point security will search/question you in the brig and you will go free. Believe it or not, this does happen.
2) You're guilty, at which point it really doesn't matter where security questions you because you'll get busted either way.


People have filled out ahelps against me because I 'arrested them wrongly' by pulling them into the brig for a moment, searched them, and then let them go as they were actively trying to gain illicit access to the brig.

It's the damnest thing. When they don't want you in the brig, people seem to REALLY want to get in there for some reason, but god damn if they TAKE you into the brig because then they're powergaming shitcurity.

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Psyentific » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:04 am #30805

bandit wrote:
Kangaraptor wrote:As for the RP vs assholes, why can't it be both? People on Sybil at least are equal part retarded and douchebags. For every one mutesec who's just a jaded vet sick of listening to people, I can pretty much guarantee you at least two other cases of mutesec are just shitlers who can't be bothered even explaining why they silently arrested you in the bar and chucked you in the brig while you wait down a seven minute timer that you may or may not have earned.


Because every second you stop moving in a public hallway to type out a full explanation for your arrest is a second a graytider can and WILL steal your prisoner away from you, attempt to slip you and steal your ID/weaponry, or otherwise fuck with you. I'm sorry that this is news to you, but that is pretty much the situation. The way I see it, there are two options:

1) You're innocent, at which point security will search/question you in the brig and you will go free. Believe it or not, this does happen.
2) You're guilty, at which point it really doesn't matter where security questions you because you'll get busted either way.


This. I maintain a policy - If you're brigging someone, do not stop until they are in a secure area, usually the brig. Have a cuffed person pulled or buckled at all times. That's born purely out of necessity; As Security, a significant chunk of players will actively work against you in whatever way they can, especially if Security is the one initiating interactions.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

User avatar
Kangaraptor
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:33 am
Location: dank memes
Byond Username: Kangaraptor

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Kangaraptor » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:01 am #30834

bandit wrote:
Kangaraptor wrote:As for the RP vs assholes, why can't it be both? People on Sybil at least are equal part retarded and douchebags. For every one mutesec who's just a jaded vet sick of listening to people, I can pretty much guarantee you at least two other cases of mutesec are just shitlers who can't be bothered even explaining why they silently arrested you in the bar and chucked you in the brig while you wait down a seven minute timer that you may or may not have earned.


Because every second you stop moving in a public hallway to type out a full explanation for your arrest is a second a graytider can and WILL steal your prisoner away from you, attempt to slip you and steal your ID/weaponry, or otherwise fuck with you. I'm sorry that this is news to you, but that is pretty much the situation. The way I see it, there are two options:

1) You're innocent, at which point security will search/question you in the brig and you will go free. Believe it or not, this does happen.
2) You're guilty, at which point it really doesn't matter where security questions you because you'll get busted either way.


good thing I basically said 'talk to them when they're in the brig' in my post. Nowhere did I say you should stop out in the open and ask to be robusted - that's just retarded and a violation of common sense for a plethora of reasons.

But if you're the kind of mutesec who won't tell a guy why they're being brigged when they're in the brig there's a special place in greyshit hell just for you.
Image

Fatal
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 3:25 pm
Byond Username: FatalX1

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Fatal » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:02 am #30836

I'd be up for having security be forced to have some stricter rules, on one condition, and I'm sure plenty of others feel the same

Ensure everyone else is forced to follow stricter rules, it's ALL OR NOTHING, don't just give sec extra rules because you can, good example:

You can't barrier up sec at round start, yet assistants are free to break into Captains office and steal everything in it, FNR, isn't the assistant actually doing something worse and powergamey? Now sure, you can deal with it ICly, but then the barrier issue should be the same, you can't have one rule for one and another rule for others, it just doesn't work

The greytiding has been cut down a little recently, but it's still a major problem, the irony is, if you do your job properly, you can't win against it, and if you don't, everyone yells "SEC WAS SHIT" in OOC at round end, despite never playing security themselves

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Scott » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:42 am #30852

Regarding mute sec, I am mute often during arrests because the risk of some random cunt passing by and freeing my captive is just too likely.

Apsis
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:26 pm

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Apsis » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:21 am #30902

Also people seem to forget that some Sec members are tasked with guarding a few of the major departments. This partnership can open them up to options such as: yellow jello gloves, a kick ass mecha, superpowers, or a cute 'lil hat. Is it powergaming because the peeps of that department give you perks because they like you?

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:14 pm #30924

Psyentific wrote:
bandit wrote:
Kangaraptor wrote:As for the RP vs assholes, why can't it be both? People on Sybil at least are equal part retarded and douchebags. For every one mutesec who's just a jaded vet sick of listening to people, I can pretty much guarantee you at least two other cases of mutesec are just shitlers who can't be bothered even explaining why they silently arrested you in the bar and chucked you in the brig while you wait down a seven minute timer that you may or may not have earned.


Because every second you stop moving in a public hallway to type out a full explanation for your arrest is a second a graytider can and WILL steal your prisoner away from you, attempt to slip you and steal your ID/weaponry, or otherwise fuck with you. I'm sorry that this is news to you, but that is pretty much the situation. The way I see it, there are two options:

1) You're innocent, at which point security will search/question you in the brig and you will go free. Believe it or not, this does happen.
2) You're guilty, at which point it really doesn't matter where security questions you because you'll get busted either way.


This. I maintain a policy - If you're brigging someone, do not stop until they are in a secure area, usually the brig. Have a cuffed person pulled or buckled at all times. That's born purely out of necessity; As Security, a significant chunk of players will actively work against you in whatever way they can, especially if Security is the one initiating interactions.

Hahahahaha
Psyentific wrote:Image


I never do this and I never get dunked. Magic, isn't it?

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Psyentific » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:07 pm #31023

It's not about not getting dunked, it's about losing the mark because a clown slipped you mid-sentence and he bolted.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

User avatar
Cipher3
In Game PermaBanned
 
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 11:17 pm
Byond Username: Cipher3

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Cipher3 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:13 pm #31040

tl;dr for this entire thread

Everybody will never agree about crucial matters.
Spoiler:
Nathanael Greene begins to reshape Bryce Pax's genitals to look more feminine.
Nathanael Greene has made a woman of Bryce Pax!

Valerie Sinnet says, "Nathaniel Greene charged the brig with a fucking HONK."

[Common] Assists-the-Crew hisses, "Walker Quinn s-s-s-ss-stole the HoP's-s-s-ss-s door"

OOC: HotelBravoLima: I literally can't be removed from power.

This line gets me every time:
I demand this ban be lifted right now. ~Bibliodewangus

What you hear walking past people:
Erin Wake whispers, "You should ready up on Badger and boink with me..."

"I think you guys are just tired of drinking hitler and now you want diet hitler.
I've got all that great hitler flavor but only half the hitler calories." - Anon3

You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that PR matters. ~MisterPerson

DEAD: Ichigo Momomiya says, "Coravin's just an ass."

Linus Johnson says, "Hey you know I got this game Skyrim last week"
Linus Johnson says, "I have a level 19 ranger and its so fun"
Weston Zadovsky says, "did he just"
Weston Zadovsky says, "fucking hell"

The emergency shuttle has been called. It will arrive in 10 minutes.
Nature of emergency:
Coravin, just Coravin.

Beryl Nyuphoran says, "Fucking get out."
Coravin Vattes asks, "Please?"
Beryl Nyuphoran says, "Please get the fuck outta my lab."
Coravin Vattes exclaims, "Okay!"
[Common] Beryl Nyuphoran {RD} asks, "WHO GAVE CORAVIN ALL ACCESS?"

Lindsay Donk stammers, "L-Luc-ck w-was-s-s s-s-such-h a beaut-tifu p-p-p-pr-r-rom-m q-q-q-queen"

Ty Andrews curls up in a ball on the floor and purrs.

by oranges » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:15 pm
Get out bluespace, you've not been relevant since you lost the elections

That said, I think there are a shitton of degenerates here and I'd probably gas the lot of you if I had the chance. ~Loonikus


Image

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Psyentific » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:25 pm #31049

Cipher3 wrote:tl;dr for this entire thread

Everybody will never agree about crucial matters.

Image
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:07 am #31144

So essentially, the only thing I can gather that has been reached from this thread is that if Security goes nuts and does very overt actions such as hiding the Armoury at round start or turning the brig into a fortress. Then you have crossed the line.

Absolutely everything else however is up to the interpretation of the admin on at the time. As there is no clear consensus on what is 'good' and what is 'bad'. Which leaves a large amount of ambiguity on what Sec can and cannot do, which ain't fun.
Image

User avatar
cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:14 am #31147

Steelpoint wrote:So essentially, the only thing I can gather that has been reached from this thread is that if Security goes nuts and does very overt actions such as hiding the Armoury at round start or turning the brig into a fortress. Then you have crossed the line.

Absolutely everything else however is up to the interpretation of the admin on at the time. As there is no clear consensus on what is 'good' and what is 'bad'. Which leaves a large amount of ambiguity on what Sec can and cannot do, which ain't fun.

That extra level of uncertainty on top of whatever stress you already have IC.

User avatar
lumipharon
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby lumipharon » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:41 am #31168

I play a warden a lot, and I will do not believe in fortifying the brig fnr. Good reasons include: known antags running around that you feel could be a threat to the brig/station. IE: it's revs, time to put up flashers and barricades. or B: There is little/no sec, so a little hom field advantage is perfectly ok to me. Also sometime I just put up a turret, not because they're actually good (they've helped antags more then hindered them, overall in my experience), but because I'm bored.

Sam thing goes with dragging beepsky. Am I going after a known murderer on my lonesome? Hell yeah bringing a securitron is a reasonable and indeed intelligent, rational idea.
Am I on routine patrol, with no known dangerou crime going on, with a securitron and riot shield? ...Yeah, that's gay as shit.

Pretty much it comes down to RP. If there is atleast a plausible IC reason, then that's ok, otherwise it should reasonably be assumed that the station's default is enough.

User avatar
Kuraudo
 
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:48 pm
Location: France
Byond Username: Arumashi

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Kuraudo » Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:54 pm #31247

NikFlakFlak talked about how security should react and not act. And i strongly disagree with that. Security gets frustrating to play because it always lags behind, in a game where initiative is key.
What's initiative as a sec officer ? Let me tell you. As a sec, i often sweep maint after getting access to it. My seclite in one hand and my taser on the other. I ruined the day of many shitlers and antags like that.
Don't wait for people to yell "HELP MURDER CHAPEL", being proactive is key. Patrol. Arrest. Search. Interrogate. No evidence, witness or confession ? Release the man on the spot.
Like UtterNewbie demonstrated it by his long list of what admins tolerate from other jobs, optimisation patterns are common if not mandatory among other jobs. They're a part of the initiative measures you can take. But security get denied any optimisation. Setting up barriers at the brig weak spots is the kind of preparation that harm nobody and they should be allowed to do it without worrying about admin intervention.

Denying sec preemptive measures like that (gearing up, setting up barriers, flashers, etc), is like denying the Captain to secure the disk at round start.
Hey Captain, why are you securing that disk ? There's no nuke ops to be seen, and nobody on the station know the code to detonate that nuclear device, right ? Then why the hell are you doing that ?
Grant them both that right, or deny them both.

Lastly, you people are talking about "mute sec", but it's a reaction to the "fuck da police" mindset that complicate your job as a sec officier, by forcing you to be paranoid because of those assistant looking for an opportunity to free the suspect you've just arrested, because of that clown waiting for that opportunity to make you slip.
Trust me, you do not want to let this happen. You do not want to let TG become LLA in terms of sec policies.
Being a "mute sec" is mandatory as long as you're not in the safety of the brig.
"He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are brigged."

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:27 pm #31252

Kuraudo wrote:Lastly, you people are talking about "mute sec", but it's a reaction to the "fuck da police" mindset that complicate your job as a sec officier, by forcing you to be paranoid because of those assistant looking for an opportunity to free the suspect you've just arrested, because of that clown waiting for that opportunity to make you slip.
Trust me, you do not want to let this happen. You do not want to let TG become LLA in terms of sec policies.
Being a "mute sec" is mandatory as long as you're not in the safety of the brig.

Stop, stop saying anything about it being mandatory or necessary or anything. It's just not. I never ever do it. Ever. If I'm in doubt, I don't arrest or stuncuff and search/question on the spot/in close proximity.

You are just being shitcurity. All your justification is pure whining. Not everybody is looking to fuck with security, that's a lie. Brig is not the only safe spot, that's also a lie. There are plenty of relatively out-of-the-way spots around the station.

By being shitcurity you promote fuck the police behavior you are talking about. I hate to be in this vicious cycle of mute shitcurity and retarded greytiders. Most of all, I hate being arrested for no reason and left bucklecuffed in brig because officer is too afraid of someone hypothetical that is instantly gonna jump on them if they stop for just a second.

User avatar
bandit
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby bandit » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:31 pm #31254

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:You are just being shitcurity. All your justification is pure whining. Not everybody is looking to fuck with security, that's a lie. Brig is not the only safe spot, that's also a lie. There are plenty of relatively out-of-the-way spots around the station.

By being shitcurity you promote fuck the police behavior you are talking about. I hate to be in this vicious cycle of mute shitcurity and retarded greytiders. Most of all, I hate being arrested for no reason and left bucklecuffed in brig because officer is too afraid of someone hypothetical that is instantly gonna jump on them if they stop for just a second.


It's retarded for an officer to take someone anywhere but the brig for searching/questioning. Not only that, but it actually *wastes the prisoner's time*, as if the officer finds anything he'll have to take them to the brig anyway and gather up his stuff, which can add to a brig sentence's worth of time all on its own. As for "relatively out-of-the-way spots" there are few officers have access to. Shit, officers don't even have maint anymore (and every time an officer even sets foot in maint anyway, even if it is to SAVE THE PRISONER'S TIME by taking a shortcut or avoid graytiding ground zeros like the brig hall, people immediately whine OH GOD OFFICER IS TAKING ME INTO MAINT HE'S ROGUE.)

As for "greytiding is the only natural response to shitcurity" that's fucking stupid. Ever heard of being the better person? Or server rules? It is not being shitcurity to wait until you're done using your arrow keys to take someone to the brig to type out an explanation.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:48 pm #31256

bandit wrote:It's retarded for an officer to take someone anywhere but the brig for searching/questioning.

It's retarded not to go through whole station to search someone potentially completely innocent? Wow.
bandit wrote:Not only that, but it actually *wastes the prisoner's time*, as if the officer finds anything he'll have to take them to the brig anyway and gather up his stuff, which can add to a brig sentence's worth of time all on its own.

If you take too long with processing, you lower the timer. Is this not fucking obvious also? Man, some security players we have. Implying that searching first and dragging into brig second doesn't take the same amount of time as reverse, considering the criminal is guilty, is retarded anyway. If they're innocent, you just saved a fuckton of time for both of you.
bandit wrote: As for "relatively out-of-the-way spots" there are few officers have access to. Shit, officers don't even have maint anymore (and every time an officer even sets foot in maint anyway, even if it is to SAVE THE PRISONER'S TIME by taking a shortcut or avoid graytiding ground zeros like the brig hall, people immediately whine OH GOD OFFICER IS TAKING ME INTO MAINT HE'S ROGUE.)

Why would you go into fucking maint to search someone? Walk into the gap near kitchen, near library, into the bar, into medbay lobby, gap near atmos, cargo lobby, holy shit, how hard is that?
bandit wrote:Ever heard of being the better person? Or server rules?

YES, THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT, DON'T BE SHITTY TO PEOPLE YOU ARREST
bandit wrote:to wait until you're done using your arrow keys to take someone to the brig to type out an explanation.

My god, do some people seriously don't talk in anywhere but their department because they might be attacked?

How can we go any lower at this point?
Last edited by Lo6a4evskiy on Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
cedarbridge
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:52 pm #31258

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Not everybody is looking to fuck with security, that's a lie.

And to say the opposite (nobody is looking to fuck with security) is also a lie. Generalizations are tricky like that. The fact remains that an officer has no way to know about the reality of an external interference like that so they do what's natural. Risk Management. Literally the only sec that needs shit for not talking are the sorts that refuse to speak after arriving at the brig. If you brig somebody and they still have no idea why they were arrested or why they've been brigged (doubly so if the warden has no idea why you just stuffed somebody in one of his/her brig cells) that's a problem. Not having a roadside chat and searching somebody on the spot of arrest isn't shitcurity;its just good sense. Hallway/public searches are insecure, and IC demeaning to the arrested party.

1) That guy you strip searched in the hall wasn't a traitor and now he's pissed that sec just stripped him in a hallway. Bonus points of some shitler stole his stuff as they ran by.
2) The guy...was a traitor and some shitler ran past and stole his ebow/emag/etc while the officer was too busy holding the original guy.

This shit happens. Hell, the last time I was searched like this was in a rev round. Full space suit and a police baton and retro laser left laying in the hallway. Guess what weapon came back later and killed said officer?

User avatar
bandit
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby bandit » Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:01 pm #31263

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Why would you go into fucking maint to search someone? Walk into the gap near kitchen, near library, into the bar, into medbay lobby, gap near atmos, cargo lobby, holy shit, how hard is that?


Because graytiders either congregate there or, more importantly, fucking chase you when you are arresting someone. It is now standard during arrest to have to run-and-gun (run-and-taze, that is) at least two grays who are chasing you so you can actually make your arrest in peace. They chase you in greater numbers if the prisoner whines, regardless of whether his whine is a lie. They will chase you to any accessible area, and the places security officers can go are pretty much the same places grays can go now thanks to departmental access cuts... except the brig. The end. End of story.

(The reason you would go into maint is to save time, avoid people fucking with your arrest, and get to the brig faster. For instance, if you're in the dorms, why the fuck wouldn't you take the maint shortcut?)

Personally, as a prisoner I would prefer to be searched in the brig, where I can get my things and go in relative safety with the assurance that no one is going to take them and run. In fact, the admin complaint I posted had, as one of the other side's main complaints, the fact that he was searched in the gap near dorms, where some gray stole one of his items mid-search. (Of course, he then accused security of stealing it. Which just goes to show that you cannot win.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls

User avatar
Kangaraptor
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:33 am
Location: dank memes
Byond Username: Kangaraptor

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Kangaraptor » Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:09 pm #31267

Arete wrote:
Kangaraptor wrote:Nah, nah. Been on both sides of the fence often enough, so don't try dismissing anything with that shit. Did you ever stop to consider that people hate sec not because it's cool, but many sec players give very good reasons not to like them? Rampant mutesec, security and condoned hopcurity 'confiscating' legitimately gained equipment not used in any crimes for personal use, all that shit. None of it gets dealt with and it all gets palmed off as 'IC', so people learn to hate sec. Namefagging greyshits notwithstanding (looking at you, Bowchief). Personally I've never encountered this all-pervasive, deep-seeded malice you and Steelpoint describe when playing as sec; maybe I'm just 'willfully ignorant' or 'uninformed'. There's more to it than 'wah i'm a victim qqqqqqq', stop trying to behave like everyone's out to get you and actually take a minute to examine why people behave the way they do.


Okay. What's your examination of why people choose not to play security, and what policy solutions do you think are feasible?


Iunno how we could fix the problem with policy; personally I'd think tackling the greyshit issue at large (y'know, the people who go out of their way to be absolutely awful all the time) and, inversely, being tighter on shitsec that is genuinely shit. People don't often seem to choose sec because a) there's no real sense of progression (unless 'progress' for you is getting wood because you got dat big mean bad guy who was pissing in your sandbox) b) it can be as boring as it is hectic and c) the usual greyshit tirade (because I'm well aware that ~certain people~ make a point of fucking with security and I never said they didn't).

Now, as for why I PERSONALLY don't play sec as often - the problem there lay with other sec and command. I got jack of having to deal with the same retarded officers and shitlord HoSes that I just gave up. I can't exactly speak for everyone, but that's it for me. I still roll it occasionally, but my attitude toward playing sec is a resounding 'meh' these days.

edit:

Fatal wrote:I'd be up for having security be forced to have some stricter rules, on one condition, and I'm sure plenty of others feel the same

Ensure everyone else is forced to follow stricter rules, it's ALL OR NOTHING, don't just give sec extra rules....


that quote from fatal's post basically covers how i feel re: policy and sec.
Image

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:17 pm #31285

cedarbridge wrote:And to say the opposite (nobody is looking to fuck with security) is also a lie.

Please point out the place where I said that and I will admit that it was absolutely incorrect.
cedarbridge wrote:Hallway/public searches are insecure, and IC demeaning to the arrested party.

Oh man, yet I do that all the time. There are also plenty of places in hallways and nearby, like I said.
cedarbridge wrote:1) That guy you strip searched in the hall wasn't a traitor and now he's pissed that sec just stripped him in a hallway. Bonus points of some shitler stole his stuff as they ran by.
2) The guy...was a traitor and some shitler ran past and stole his ebow/emag/etc while the officer was too busy holding the original guy.

You actually leave their stuff on the floor?

Okay you know what, I'm bloody tired of this. I just fucking told you that no, this doesn't happen even often enough to affect me in any big way. because I always act like I'm telling you to act, but you just reply me with "no, it's impossible, greytiders always attack me when I'm dragging a criminal".

Like, just now I had a round as HoS where greyshirt brought PDA from a person beepsky arrested that I forgot to pick up. Then QM handed over a braindead officer with no signs of looting whatsoever. Then another greyshirt brought an emptied plasma canister to brig as evidence. All in a single round, you can hardly call that a coincidence. There are a lot of people like that, by the way.

But sure, keep telling yourself that every time you're being nonshitcurity you are gonna be attacked by a horde of greytiders. I guess I cannot say anything else to change your mind.

User avatar
Kuraudo
 
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:48 pm
Location: France
Byond Username: Arumashi

Re: Powergaming, security, and you

Postby Kuraudo » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:20 pm #31287

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Kuraudo wrote:Lastly, you people are talking about "mute sec", but it's a reaction to the "fuck da police" mindset that complicate your job as a sec officier, by forcing you to be paranoid because of those assistant looking for an opportunity to free the suspect you've just arrested, because of that clown waiting for that opportunity to make you slip.
Trust me, you do not want to let this happen. You do not want to let TG become LLA in terms of sec policies.
Being a "mute sec" is mandatory as long as you're not in the safety of the brig.

Stop, stop saying anything about it being mandatory or necessary or anything. It's just not. I never ever do it. Ever. If I'm in doubt, I don't arrest or stuncuff and search/question on the spot/in close proximity.

You are just being shitcurity. All your justification is pure whining. Not everybody is looking to fuck with security, that's a lie. Brig is not the only safe spot, that's also a lie. There are plenty of relatively out-of-the-way spots around the station.

By being shitcurity you promote fuck the police behavior you are talking about. I hate to be in this vicious cycle of mute shitcurity and retarded greytiders. Most of all, I hate being arrested for no reason and left bucklecuffed in brig because officer is too afraid of someone hypothetical that is instantly gonna jump on them if they stop for just a second.


This is not the first time i saw you being super agressive on the forum, telling this guy is retarded, that guy is dumb, this dude is shitcurity, etc. Ever thought about taking a deep relaxing breath before answering to someone ? That could help.
On the subject, i'm glad that your arrest technique didn't get you in any trouble. However, i did tried arresting people, searching them in the place of arrest, talking to them, etc. Only to see myself fucked over by griefers/antags, etc. And i'm not the only one. Who said everybody wants to fuck with security ? But even 10 % of my arrests ending like that is too much.
You want to minimize the chance of people interfering in your arrest ? Then being mute-sec is mandatory. You'll tell them on what charges they got arrested once in the brig. It's simple.

The "fuck da police" mindset come from from various factors; Security being seen as weak, weapons dispensers. Some servers tried to mitigate this by putting ID locks on tasers, creating other problems. Security also being understaffed, when there is only one sec and you're a griefer, it's tempting to fuck him over to create yourself a huge margin of freedom.
When authority doesn't prevail, chaos spread like moisture. It's a valid statement in real life, and in SS13 too.
"He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are brigged."

PreviousNext

Return to Policy Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users