Powergaming, security, and you

[bandit]

Bottom post of the previous page:

For those of you who don't follow singulo (yes I know keep reading), one player quit, reasoning explained here: http://pastebin.com/Ltu19DV5

The gist was that this player was tired of being BWOINK!ed for security "powergaming," specifically for fortifying the brig and dragging Beepsky around to apprehend antags. In one case, I have a broader than usual grasp of the full situation, as I was the AI in this round. There was an antag with an e-bow, esword and magboots (I think the gravity was out) on a murderbone. They only got dunked because of Beepsky dragging. This was a traitor who had e-bow and e-sword murdered about 10 people. I saw about three of the murders take place personally -- they were zipping around the station murdering whoever they came across, and stuffing their bodies into a locker. By the time Beepsky finally took him down, the locker contained about 12 bodies.

So who's powergaming more?

I think this boils down to two things, really:

Point one: You cannot tell security not to powergame when antags are powergaming. You just can't. If an antag is running around with an e-sword (that blocks tasers), e-bow (that GGs at range), magboots (permanent speed boost), potentially ablative (blocks even more tasers/lasers) and such, security basically has to use things other than their standard gear loadout. You can punish powergaming on both sides, or you can not punish powergaming on either side, but you cannot punish powergaming in a lopsided way. This particular case will result in:

- A decrease in players playing security, as they do not want to get BWOINKed for doing their job. This, as everyone knows, is already happening. People like to say that players don't play security because of the antag roll, but the antag roll is being moved, and I predict we are still going to see a comparative lack of security, due to the reasons above.
- An increase in murderboning; as everyone knows security is powerless OOC to stop it, as the only effective tactics might get them BWOINKED. Currently this is a case of "which admin is on currently, and which rules are they picky about?"
- Idiotic, stupid and/or tiding tactics such as lubing chemists, banana-slipping clowns and/or stunprod-wielding assistants being the most effective and/or most acceptable line of defense against antagonists. The "higher standard" rule shouldn't lead to non-security players playing vigilante security because it is "safer" banwise, but this is exactly what is happening.

Point two: Not all complaints are made equal. "A lot of people complained about you," on its own, is not evidence enough against a player. I realize I have a dog in this race, having submitted an admincomplaint recently over this very thing, but: When graytiders, antags and other people get dunked, they are likely to complain about it -- solely because they got dunked. Their definition of "powergaming" is "i lost, plz nerf," or in this case, "i lost, plz ban." I believe this is the reason why security is the sole policy target of anti-powergaming, rather than antags (there are anti-powergaming efforts for antags, but they are mostly on the code side and met with resistance): security can't complain about any powergaming an antag does under our current rules, and the sort of people who gray tide are also the sort of people who are likely to whine about security.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

And to say the opposite (nobody is looking to fuck with security) is also a lie.

Please point out the place where I said that and I will admit that it was absolutely incorrect.

Hallway/public searches are insecure, and IC demeaning to the arrested party.

Oh man, yet I do that all the time. There are also plenty of places in hallways and nearby, like I said.

1) That guy you strip searched in the hall wasn't a traitor and now he's pissed that sec just stripped him in a hallway. Bonus points of some shitler stole his stuff as they ran by.
2) The guy...was a traitor and some shitler ran past and stole his ebow/emag/etc while the officer was too busy holding the original guy.

You actually leave their stuff on the floor?

Okay you know what, I'm bloody tired of this. I just fucking told you that no, this doesn't happen even often enough to affect me in any big way. because I always act like I'm telling you to act, but you just reply me with "no, it's impossible, greytiders always attack me when I'm dragging a criminal".

Like, just now I had a round as HoS where greyshirt brought PDA from a person beepsky arrested that I forgot to pick up. Then QM handed over a braindead officer with no signs of looting whatsoever. Then another greyshirt brought an emptied plasma canister to brig as evidence. All in a single round, you can hardly call that a coincidence. There are a lot of people like that, by the way.

But sure, keep telling yourself that every time you're being nonshitcurity you are gonna be attacked by a horde of greytiders. I guess I cannot say anything else to change your mind.

[Kuraudo]

Lastly, you people are talking about "mute sec", but it's a reaction to the "fuck da police" mindset that complicate your job as a sec officier, by forcing you to be paranoid because of those assistant looking for an opportunity to free the suspect you've just arrested, because of that clown waiting for that opportunity to make you slip.
Trust me, you do not want to let this happen. You do not want to let TG become LLA in terms of sec policies.
Being a "mute sec" is mandatory as long as you're not in the safety of the brig.

Stop, stop saying anything about it being mandatory or necessary or anything. It's just not. I never ever do it. Ever. If I'm in doubt, I don't arrest or stuncuff and search/question on the spot/in close proximity.

You are just being shitcurity. All your justification is pure whining. Not everybody is looking to fuck with security, that's a lie. Brig is not the only safe spot, that's also a lie. There are plenty of relatively out-of-the-way spots around the station.

By being shitcurity you promote fuck the police behavior you are talking about. I hate to be in this vicious cycle of mute shitcurity and retarded greytiders. Most of all, I hate being arrested for no reason and left bucklecuffed in brig because officer is too afraid of someone hypothetical that is instantly gonna jump on them if they stop for just a second.

This is not the first time i saw you being super agressive on the forum, telling this guy is retarded, that guy is dumb, this dude is shitcurity, etc. Ever thought about taking a deep relaxing breath before answering to someone ? That could help.
On the subject, i'm glad that your arrest technique didn't get you in any trouble. However, i did tried arresting people, searching them in the place of arrest, talking to them, etc. Only to see myself fucked over by griefers/antags, etc. And i'm not the only one. Who said everybody wants to fuck with security ? But even 10 % of my arrests ending like that is too much.
You want to minimize the chance of people interfering in your arrest ? Then being mute-sec is mandatory. You'll tell them on what charges they got arrested once in the brig. It's simple.

The "fuck da police" mindset come from from various factors; Security being seen as weak, weapons dispensers. Some servers tried to mitigate this by putting ID locks on tasers, creating other problems. Security also being understaffed, when there is only one sec and you're a griefer, it's tempting to fuck him over to create yourself a huge margin of freedom.
When authority doesn't prevail, chaos spread like moisture. It's a valid statement in real life, and in SS13 too.

[NikNakFlak]

I agree alot with what lo6a4evskiy is saying.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

This is not the first time i saw you being super agressive on the forum, telling this guy is retarded, that guy is dumb, this dude is shitcurity, etc. Ever thought about taking a deep relaxing breath before answering to someone ? That could help.

Sure, I apologize, I do act very aggressively when it's not necessary at all. I apologize sincerely. Shitcurity is not meant as an offensive term, however, nor does this invalidate my point.

[cedarbridge]

you just reply me with "no, it's impossible, greytiders always attack me when I'm dragging a criminal".

Please point out the place where I said that and I will admit that it was absolutely incorrect. You're putting a lot of words in my mouth in these posts and its not getting you anywhere.

I guess I cannot say anything else to change your mind.

In this thread and others you have this strange tendency to pass insults off as arguments. You're not convincing anyone that your method is more correct or better by literally calling people shitcurity for not following your methods. Its childish. You should probably step back and actually read the posts for content instead of looking for things to get upset about.

[cedarbridge]

Actual content this time I swear

And to say the opposite (nobody is looking to fuck with security) is also a lie.

Please point out the place where I said that and I will admit that it was absolutely incorrect.

Your statement was "not everybody." If we're going to accept "not everybody" on faith then we can accept "everybody" on faith too. If one is just as improbable as the other, then something wrong with the reasoning. Either both extremes are equally reasonable without evidence or they're both just claims. Neither is really information an officer has at the time of arrest. Hell, even the guy being arrested has no idea if the SO is even a real SO since only HUDs see implants. I'd much rather have an SO drag my ass to the brig for a search than some side room or just tear all my shit off in a hallway. At least then I have a clear idea who I'm dealing with.

Hallway/public searches are insecure, and IC demeaning to the arrested party.

Oh man, yet I do that all the time. There are also plenty of places in hallways and nearby, like I said.

None of which are more secure or really much more convenient than the brig. As big as boxstation is, you're never more than a minute or so from the brig. I mean I guess you could use a sec post or something, but not every arrest is something an average SO can spend a lot of time sorting out. That's why the warden is also in the brig. He coordinates the arrests and sorts the charges. No charges on a guy that just got brought to the brig? Off he goes.

1) That guy you strip searched in the hall wasn't a traitor and now he's pissed that sec just stripped him in a hallway. Bonus points of some shitler stole his stuff as they ran by.
2) The guy...was a traitor and some shitler ran past and stole his ebow/emag/etc while the officer was too busy holding the original guy.

You actually leave their stuff on the floor?

Words into my mouth. It doesn't take leaving a pile of loot on the floor (though it has been done) for somebody to nick stuff from a search in progress.

Like, just now I had a round as HoS where greyshirt brought PDA from a person beepsky arrested that I forgot to pick up. Then QM handed over a braindead officer with no signs of looting whatsoever. Then another greyshirt brought an emptied plasma canister to brig as evidence. All in a single round, you can hardly call that a coincidence. There are a lot of people like that, by the way.

That's really great and warms my heart to imagine that server culture might actually improve a bit, but sec is just as much about risk management as it is about making the arrests and following procedure. If I perform the search in a secure area, I've mitigated my risk and their risk. In doing so I might have cost them a minute or so of travel time each way (assuming they go free.) BFD.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Your statement was "not everybody." If we're going to accept "not everybody" on faith then we can accept "everybody" on faith too.

I just told you what happened to me in a round just some time ago. Round was ending when I posted that. I'm sorry, I didn't bring logs.

Yeah whatever I'm done. We just disagree on facts. The fact is, I successfully do what you claim is way too dangerous all the time when I play security, which is a lot. You disagree with that, well, I'm done.

People will hate silent officers no matter what excuse you come up with, though.

I mean, security is not about protecting others and letting people have a good time, security is all about preparation, seeking antagonists and risk management. Of course.

Well, I'd rather die because I brought pizza in permabrig than live in fear of talking outside of brig.

[Arete]

Sure, I apologize, I do act very aggressively when it's not necessary at all. I apologize sincerely.

Protip if you really are serious here:

I mean, security is not about protecting others and letting people have a good time, security is all about preparation, seeking antagonists and risk management. Of course.

Cut this stuff out. Stretching an opponent's position into a strawman hyperbole and then acting all scornful at them for supposedly supporting that hyperbole is not a good way to contribute to discussion. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Try something like "Security isn't really about winning at any particular objectives, not even stopping antags. It's about filling an in-character moderator-like role to help other players have a good time." (I hope I'm characterizing your position correctly here.)

Then I can reply something along the lines of "But if that role isn't enjoyable in the first place, then it will go unfilled and won't be able to serve its purpose. Having definite goals and victory conditions can make a role much more enjoyable." And then hopefully we each have a better idea of each other's positions and the community's decision-makers will have points on either side illustrated for them so they can better reach a consensus for how to handle this.

[bandit]

You actually leave their stuff on the floor?

Generally when searching you have to empty people's pockets. This dumps the respective items onto the floor. During this time it is both possible and probable that someone will steal them, unless you are in a safe area like the brig. It's doubly likely that someone will nick them if it's an item like an ebow that is conspicuous and deadly, whether it's a traitor/tider looking for free lewts or just the fact that people have a boner for carrying syndicate items (see: the balloon).

[Cipher3]

tl;dr for this entire thread

Everybody will never agree about crucial matters.

ITT: People bicker without end.

[cedarbridge]

tl;dr for this entire thread

Everybody will never agree about crucial matters.

OTB: People bicker without end.

FTFY

[Raven776]

It's retarded for an officer to take someone anywhere but the brig for searching/questioning.

It's retarded not to go through whole station to search someone potentially completely innocent? Wow.

Not only that, but it actually *wastes the prisoner's time*, as if the officer finds anything he'll have to take them to the brig anyway and gather up his stuff, which can add to a brig sentence's worth of time all on its own.

If you take too long with processing, you lower the timer. Is this not fucking obvious also? Man, some security players we have. Implying that searching first and dragging into brig second doesn't take the same amount of time as reverse, considering the criminal is guilty, is retarded anyway. If they're innocent, you just saved a fuckton of time for both of you.

As for "relatively out-of-the-way spots" there are few officers have access to. Shit, officers don't even have maint anymore (and every time an officer even sets foot in maint anyway, even if it is to SAVE THE PRISONER'S TIME by taking a shortcut or avoid graytiding ground zeros like the brig hall, people immediately whine OH GOD OFFICER IS TAKING ME INTO MAINT HE'S ROGUE.)

Why would you go into fucking maint to search someone? Walk into the gap near kitchen, near library, into the bar, into medbay lobby, gap near atmos, cargo lobby, holy shit, how hard is that?

Ever heard of being the better person? Or server rules?

YES, THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT, DON'T BE SHITTY TO PEOPLE YOU ARREST

to wait until you're done using your arrow keys to take someone to the brig to type out an explanation.

My god, do some people seriously don't talk in anywhere but their department because they might be attacked?

How can we go any lower at this point?

Ahhh, this beautiful way of arguing. I can honestly say that anyone that cuts up their opponents paragraphs into bits and decides to argue each one as if they were a separate piece of information independent of anything else being said deserves to get shot. I'm also a hypocrit so I'm fairly sure I've done it at least once in my life, possibly on this forum, but I deserve to get shot for that too.

I can see your argument here. It's easier to search someone somewhere if there's a quiet, out of the way place to do it nearby. But for both of our sakes it's usually just easier to pull them to the brig. Why is this? If you drag them into the chapel or some other low trafficked area, it's a lot more shady but overall fine. If they ARE a criminal then their stuff is likely going to get stolen though, and if the clown or assistants that have the greytide attitude are around then you're two heaping helpings of double fucked unless you bring them to the brig or strip their comms to make them stop screaming 'rape!'

With that said, anyone that screams out 'security rogue' or 'rape' should be thrown into perma anyways, so if they do that when you're performing your perfectly valid search and arrest then you're going to the brig anyways. This is a point in your favor though as this is also the only REALLY likely way that you're going to get jumped when searching in the hallway.

[cedarbridge]

Ahhh, this beautiful way of arguing. I can honestly say that anyone that cuts up their opponents paragraphs into bits and decides to argue each one as if they were a separate piece of information independent of anything else being said deserves to get shot. I'm also a hypocrit so I'm fairly sure I've done it at least once in my life, possibly on this forum, but I deserve to get shot for that too.

Points made should be addressed on their merits. It keeps a debate organized and it helps isolate issues. Paragraphs are for books.

[Psyentific]

Ahhh, this beautiful way of arguing. I can honestly say that anyone that cuts up their opponents paragraphs into bits and decides to argue each one as if they were a separate piece of information independent of anything else being said deserves to get shot. I'm also a hypocrit so I'm fairly sure I've done it at least once in my life, possibly on this forum, but I deserve to get shot for that too.

Points made should be addressed on their merits. It keeps a debate organized and it helps isolate issues. Paragraphs are for books.

No, Paragraphs are for Point, Supporting Arguement, Supporting Arguement, Supporting Arguement. If you aren't paragraphing, either you're just tossing words out there, you're not supporting your points, or you're wall-of-texting. The first isn't arguing, the second is sloppy, and nobody reads the third. Now look how I structured this post; what-ho, point, supporting arguement, supporting arguement, supporting arguement.

:smug:

[paprika]

I'm biased for security, but fuck the double standard.

[Fatal]

Had a round yesterday that made me think about something:

Why is there no policy (it seems) regarding Captains / HoPs powergaming in a similar fashion

These two actually should be less involved in station security, now I know a lot of people will say, this is usually dealt with IC, but still, I think it needs bringing up

The main reason I bring it up, is during a round yesterday when I was detective, the Captain, at round start, equipped his space suit, took his antique gun, ran straight to EVA, took magboots and toolbelt, then to medbay, swiped a syringe gun, and then, amazingly enough, because he completely ignored the nuclear disk, we arrested him and demoted him, and it was all dealt with nicely IC

Is the reason security is held to such standards by the admins, because security is there to hold everyone else to their own standards and not the admins? It doesn't seem to work for me, honestly

In all fairness, the situation regarding Captains / HoPs is a rare one these days, but still, I figured I should bring it up

[cedarbridge]

Had a round yesterday that made me think about something:

Why is there no policy (it seems) regarding Captains / HoPs powergaming in a similar fashion

These two actually should be less involved in station security, now I know a lot of people will say, this is usually dealt with IC, but still, I think it needs bringing up

The main reason I bring it up, is during a round yesterday when I was detective, the Captain, at round start, equipped his space suit, took his antique gun, ran straight to EVA, took magboots and toolbelt, then to medbay, swiped a syringe gun, and then, amazingly enough, because he completely ignored the nuclear disk, we arrested him and demoted him, and it was all dealt with nicely IC

Is the reason security is held to such standards by the admins, because security is there to hold everyone else to their own standards and not the admins? It doesn't seem to work for me, honestly

In all fairness, the situation regarding Captains / HoPs is a rare one these days, but still, I figured I should bring it up

I have to say. After the captain attacked me after I took his cuffs in the permabrig and then again after I came to take him to the shuttle, I definitely enjoyed every bit of dunking him for being a shitlord in general.

[mrpain]

HoP has no place dealing with security matters at all. He is just an over glorified human resources guy and a supply/general staff manager. We really need to start cracking down on HoPcurity. Captain is the end all, buck stops here commander of the station, and can do whatever he wants as long as its towards the benefit of the station.

[Reimoo]

Maybe HoPcurity is so common because he has little to do when nobody is lining up at his office.

[callanrockslol]

HoP should never play security unless he becomes the owl because there are no other lawbringers around.

Worth noting the playing Captain lets you get away with things you would never believe if they are reliably justified.

[Psyentific]

HoP has no place dealing with security matters at all. He is just an over glorified human resources guy and a supply/general staff manager. We really need to start cracking down on HoPcurity. Captain is the end all, buck stops here commander of the station, and can do whatever he wants as long as its towards the benefit of the station.

If you want the HoP to stop playing at Security, remove his egun and armor and make it a crime for him to loot security. Even better, give that a dedicated entry in Space Law, with HoPcurity being arrested by an angry Warden/HoS.

Maybe HoPcurity is so common because he has little to do when nobody is lining up at his office.

This is also part of the problem - The HoP, much less so than the captain, has a very time-lite official job. So what winds up happening is that most HoP's get bored and start getting their valids in. Even moreso with the captain, who starts fully-geared (save handcuffs) and has no official responsibility beyond "Grab disk don't die"

[Lo6a4evskiy]

I honestly feel like some people on forums defend certain points because those are commonly believed in, not something that they actually experienced.

It's commonly believed that being security is a hellhole with everyone being against you. But that's not what I experience most of the time.

It's commonly believed that HoP is playing security. I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw HoP going out of his way to act as security.

It's commonly believed that everyone screams "SHITCURITY RAPE" when arrested. That's also very limited to really shitty people and then they deserve no continence or mercy, those you should drag straight to gulag.

I don't know, it's just I feel like my personal experience is very different from what people claim on forums.

[mrpain]

HoP has no place dealing with security matters at all. He is just an over glorified human resources guy and a supply/general staff manager. We really need to start cracking down on HoPcurity. Captain is the end all, buck stops here commander of the station, and can do whatever he wants as long as its towards the benefit of the station.

If you want the HoP to stop playing at Security, remove his egun and armor and make it a crime for him to loot security. Even better, give that a dedicated entry in Space Law, with HoPcurity being arrested by an angry Warden/HoS.

I dont understand why he has that gun and armor in the first place. Is it because he's a head of staff? Then why dont the other heads get a gun and armor? Is it because he "guards" the access modification machine? By that logic the CE should be just as armed, if not more, due to the fact that he "guards" the singularity and one wrong move with it could potentially destroy the station along with everyone in it.

[Reimoo]

I believe the justification for arming the HoP is because he is supposed to be second in command.

[mrpain]

I believe the justification for arming the HoP is because he is supposed to be second in command.

I could have this mixed up with other servers but I'm pretty sure he is equal to all heads in authority, he is just first in line to succeed the captain.

[Psyentific]

I believe the justification for arming the HoP is because he is supposed to be second in command.

I could have this mixed up with other servers but I'm pretty sure he is equal to all heads in authority, he is just first in line to succeed the captain.

Pretty much this, yeah. Despite being 2ic, I can't really see why the HoP has an e-gun over the standard Taser.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

HoP also holds ID which might as well be captain's

[Steelpoint]

The reason the HoP has a Energy Gun is because not only is he one of two people on station to have all access, he also has the coveted ability to alter access to anyone's ID's. Making him a very tasty target. Thus he has a Egun for self defence, same as the Captain.

He does not have a gun because of his station ranking, off topic I do think it would be a good idea to spawn all other heads (CMO, RD, CE) with a telescopic baton.

[Kangaraptor]

I believe the justification for arming the HoP is because he is supposed to be second in command.

I could have this mixed up with other servers but I'm pretty sure he is equal to all heads in authority, he is just first in line to succeed the captain.

When talking about '2iC', people mean the HoP is the first 'default' captain if the captain dies/is not present. If there IS a captain aboard, all heads of staff are equal in rank to each other and don't hold any authority over other heads of staff or their departments.

That's how it's presented in the Chain of Command page (or was last I checked) and I'm pretty sure it's how it's treated as far as policy goes, but I might be wrong.

[Psyentific]

When talking about '2iC', people mean the HoP is the first 'default' captain if the captain dies/is not present. If there IS a captain aboard, all heads of staff are equal in rank to each other and don't hold any authority over other heads of staff or their departments.

That's how it's presented in the Chain of Command page (or was last I checked) and I'm pretty sure it's how it's treated as far as policy goes, but I might be wrong.

The HoP is the replacement Captain, but otherwise does not get to boss any other head around.

[Kangaraptor]

When talking about '2iC', people mean the HoP is the first 'default' captain if the captain dies/is not present. If there IS a captain aboard, all heads of staff are equal in rank to each other and don't hold any authority over other heads of staff or their departments.

That's how it's presented in the Chain of Command page (or was last I checked) and I'm pretty sure it's how it's treated as far as policy goes, but I might be wrong.

The HoP is the replacement Captain, but otherwise does not get to boss any other head around.

pretty sure i just fucking said that

lemme requote just to make sure

If there IS a captain aboard, all heads of staff are equal in rank to each other and don't hold any authority over other heads of staff or their departments.

[Psyentific]

Shut up and let me agree with you, faggot

[Kangaraptor]

Shut up and let me agree with you, faggot

looked like you were trying to correct me soru

[Raven776]

To be fair, the HoP also guards the bridge and Ian, and there is no effective way to use a taser to remove a riot from the windows in front of his office.

And it IS a crime for the HoP to act as security or vigilante or to raid the armory if he isn't the acting captain. Let me explain...

You are not on a military ship. You are not a member of the military either. There is no singular chain of command to follow like in the military branches. An officer doesn't answer to the CMO, the RD, or the HoP just like the scientist's don't answer to the HoS or CE.

If the HoP gives you an order to let him into the armory as the warden, you bar his access and ask the HoS. If the HoS denies it, you tell him to kindly leave. If he PRESSES the point and tries to break in, you taze his dumb ass, take his ID because that's the object he was using to commit the crime, and put him in the brig for five minutes. Why? You, as the Warden, HoS, officer, detective, or even the LAWYER in a lot of cases answer up your separate chain of command to the HoS then the captain himself. If both of them tell you to deal with this on your own initiative, it's STILL a dereliction of duty to let someone who doesn't have clearance into the armory into the armory.

If you're tired of seeing HoPs act as security and run around in an ablative vest, play warden and keep them the fuck out until your idiotic HoS screams over comms like the HoP is the second coming and deserves his illegal all access.

Don't be mean, give him a salute and an apology if you want to, but if he just runs in without asking then you're perfectly obliged to taze him like you would any other.

All glory to Nanotresen, may her profits be forever in the green.

[Kangaraptor]

To be fair, the HoP also guards the bridge and Ian, and there is no effective way to use a taser to remove a riot from the windows in front of his office.

And it IS a crime for the HoP to act as security or vigilante or to raid the armory if he isn't the acting captain. Let me explain...

You are not on a military ship. You are not a member of the military either. There is no singular chain of command to follow like in the military branches. An officer doesn't answer to the CMO, the RD, or the HoP just like the scientist's don't answer to the HoS or CE.

If the HoP gives you an order to let him into the armory as the warden, you bar his access and ask the HoS. If the HoS denies it, you tell him to kindly leave. If he PRESSES the point and tries to break in, you taze his dumb ass, take his ID because that's the object he was using to commit the crime, and put him in the brig for five minutes. Why? You, as the Warden, HoS, officer, detective, or even the LAWYER in a lot of cases answer up your separate chain of command to the HoS then the captain himself. If both of them tell you to deal with this on your own initiative, it's STILL a dereliction of duty to let someone who doesn't have clearance into the armory into the armory.

If you're tired of seeing HoPs act as security and run around in an ablative vest, play warden and keep them the fuck out until your idiotic HoS screams over comms like the HoP is the second coming and deserves his illegal all access.

Don't be mean, give him a salute and an apology if you want to, but if he just runs in without asking then you're perfectly obliged to taze him like you would any other.

All glory to Nanotresen, may her profits be forever in the green.

this doesn't just apply to hopcurity; this applies to everyone barring the captain trying to lord over other people's departments. If you're the CE and the HOP is dicking around engineering because he printed himself an all-access ID - kick him out. Do the same to the HoS (assuming you end up with a particularly awful one) if you really want to, as well. Sec trying to steal the syringe gun? Tell them to fuck off, RD trying to boss you around as sec when your HoS is RIGHT THERE? Tell him to go eat a bag of dicks because he isn't your boss (y'know, unless within reason), etc.

[Kuraudo]

I don't know why you people are focusing on the HoP right now. The normal conditions in which him meddling in other department business is a problem are usually gone down the drain 10 minutes into the round because nuke ops, chaos, cult, rev, griefers, etc...
That, or we have no captain, making him the acting cap.

[Reimoo]

All glory to Nanotresen, may her profits be forever in the green.

I think you mean in the black.

Get it right, god

[cedarbridge]

I believe the justification for arming the HoP is because he is supposed to be second in command.

I could have this mixed up with other servers but I'm pretty sure he is equal to all heads in authority, he is just first in line to succeed the captain.

http://tgstation13.org/wiki/Chain_of_Command
Quote and link for reference.

[bandit]

I honestly feel like some people on forums defend certain points because those are commonly believed in, not something that they actually experienced.

It's commonly believed that being security is a hellhole with everyone being against you. But that's not what I experience most of the time.

It's commonly believed that HoP is playing security. I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw HoP going out of his way to act as security.

It's commonly believed that everyone screams "SHITCURITY RAPE" when arrested. That's also very limited to really shitty people and then they deserve no continence or mercy, those you should drag straight to gulag.

I don't know, it's just I feel like my personal experience is very different from what people claim on forums.

I literally just played a security round. SHITCURITY RAPE happened (the exact wording was that security was making a gangbanging porn in the brig with a prisoner). So, uh, might wanna play sec more.

I also searched an assistant in the brig rather than in the (antag-spread) banana-peel-infested hallway. They came up clean and I let them go free. It was easy for all parties involved.

[mrpain]

I believe the justification for arming the HoP is because he is supposed to be second in command.

I could have this mixed up with other servers but I'm pretty sure he is equal to all heads in authority, he is just first in line to succeed the captain.

http://tgstation13.org/wiki/Chain_of_Command
Quote and link for reference.

Thanks.

Looks like I was right after all. He is in fact, equal.

[cedarbridge]

I believe the justification for arming the HoP is because he is supposed to be second in command.

I could have this mixed up with other servers but I'm pretty sure he is equal to all heads in authority, he is just first in line to succeed the captain.

http://tgstation13.org/wiki/Chain_of_Command
Quote and link for reference.

Thanks.

Looks like I was right after all. He is in fact, equal.

Worth noting that he's only next in captainship line because of access to access and generally being a useless cunt otherwise.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

(the exact wording was that security was making a gangbanging porn in the brig with a prisoner)

but that's actually quite funny

[Raven776]

(the exact wording was that security was making a gangbanging porn in the brig with a prisoner)

but that's actually quite funny

Not when they're screaming it constantly and repetitively during what would otherwise be you trying to get answers.

[cedarbridge]

(the exact wording was that security was making a gangbanging porn in the brig with a prisoner)

but that's actually quite funny

Not when they're screaming it constantly and repetitively during what would otherwise be you trying to get answers.

Pepperspray, perma he, call it a day.

[bandit]

(the exact wording was that security was making a gangbanging porn in the brig with a prisoner)

but that's actually quite funny

Not when they're screaming it constantly and repetitively during what would otherwise be you trying to get answers.

Pepperspray, perma he, call it a day.

BWOINK!

Seriously I've been bwoink'd for perma-ing people who have fucking MURDERED other crew members, what makes you think this wouldn't qualify?

[paprika]

If it was murder in self defense it wouldn't be perma-able bandito you're going to have to give some context there

[cedarbridge]

(the exact wording was that security was making a gangbanging porn in the brig with a prisoner)

but that's actually quite funny

Not when they're screaming it constantly and repetitively during what would otherwise be you trying to get answers.

Pepperspray, perma he, call it a day.

BWOINK!

Seriously I've been bwoink'd for perma-ing people who have fucking MURDERED other crew members, what makes you think this wouldn't qualify?

Because screaming like this or using any configuration of "sec rogue" I've been told is OOC justifiable as worthy of a perma upgrade. This is a bit more complex now that antags are broken and are actually spawning HoS lings and things though.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

BWOINK!

Seriously I've been bwoink'd for perma-ing people who have fucking MURDERED other crew members, what makes you think this wouldn't qualify?

>not adminhelping if in doubt about perma

Not to mention that BWOINK means only that admin wants you to explain your actions because he doesn't know all the facts.

[Saegrimr]

Not to mention that BWOINK means only that admin wants you to explain your actions because he doesn't know all the facts.

This, we're just trying to get the whole story outta both of you, since most of the time its entirely one sided "HALP I PERMAD FOR NO RAISIN" so its either pull up a 10mb .txt file and search through the lines, or just ask the other person and compare stories, and match it up to the attack logs if related.

[Malkevin]

The reason the HoP has a Energy Gun is because not only is he one of two people on station to have all access, he also has the coveted ability to alter access to anyone's ID's. Making him a very tasty target. Thus he has a Egun for self defence, same as the Captain.

He does not have a gun because of his station ranking, off topic I do think it would be a good idea to spawn all other heads (CMO, RD, CE) with a telescopic baton.

The HoP actually has an egun as a relic to the days when he WAS the HoS - its also why he used to have the security channel.


On topic.
I don't know why I suddenly got the urge to skim over the policy forum of a server I got fed up with and quit months ago, maybe it was a feeling of homesickness or just a desire to reaffirm my opinion that the playerbase are a bunch of retarded man babies that are mollycoddled by saggy titted wetnurse admins (looking at quartz and niknak here)

The problem with security is this.
Long ago everyone on /tg powergamed but they were mature enough to not be dicks about it and generally would casually rp with each other.
Murderboners were popular shows of robustness and the crew would drop everything to hunt them down - and everyone involved had fun. (because the dead were usually lieing out in the hallways waiting to get cloned, unlike a stealth traitor that would toss you out into space, never to be seen again)

Things weren't perfect, grey tiders have always been a problem - a few even made it they round start thing to steal a space suit so that they could break into the armory just to space all the guns.
Security was tiring, but as sec huds didn't allow you to set people to arrest you would have to request them to be set to arrest over the radio. This would create a lot of communication over the sec channel. This created a great sense of comradeship, and it was this comradeship that pull us all through to the next shift.
There was nothing quite like banding together, relaying information on the location of an annoying little greyshirted twerp as you boxed him in, captured him and took him back to the brig for a swift execution/trip out the prison shuttle airlock (with no shuttle there). Executions were alot more common back then.

Because of the general high robustness of the playerbase flash revs were common and deadly, security had to band together and alot of the time they'd be suited up in riot gear doing the only thing they could - marching around the station in a group and performing individual exterminatus on anyone that was loyalty implanted. Rev rounds were incredibly bloody with a high mortality rate - but people generally enjoyed these a lot as they'd be over quick (not the long drawn out 40 minute rounds of current)

Generally security could do what they needed to do without much admin interference, although there were a few wet blankets even then.
Things were far from perfect, security has always been a shit job - but in the past it was tolerable.


Gradually the admin team started getting replaced by more and more care bears and security would get more and more heavily restricted, the problem though was that the general playerbase wasn't - they were still free to powergame and hurff derrff about the place like a shit flinging monkey.

Its a thing thats only gotten worse with time, security has got more and more restricted (I mean shit, they cant even drag a security bot with them anymore?? Not being able to set up brig defences at round start is bad enough).
They cant execute without the captains permission (some may argue space law has always said this, truth is HoS always had defacto execution rights in the oldy days - as in they would execute people and no admins gave a fuck unless it was a bullshit execution), they'll always get admin-pms for permaing, cant space greytide retards, etc.

And because security always has to fight with one hand tied behind their back the playerbase has learned this.
The playerbase, which has degraded to a bunch of immature school children, that are incapable of thinking for themselves and follow the herd mentality of "hurrr secuity is always shit, shitcurity shitcuriuy!!!", readily exploits the fact that security cant do to much to them and so readily runs amok and when gets arrested will do nothing to but try and bring as much grief as possible to security that dares interrupt their spastic olympic, and because the playbase as a whole is abso-fucking-lutely chock full of moronic cock sucking wankers, security will then find themselves having to deal with 5 more retards attempting to fuck with them.


tl/dr - security has always been a tough shitty job that most wanted nothing to do with, but its continuously badly implemented admin policies and steadily worsening playerbase that have made security absolutely awful.
There are no mechanical changes that can be implemented that give enough of an effect to counter-act this, and honestly the playerbase is well past the point of no return unless you plan to maintain some actual standards and take a heavy hand with cracking down and tossing out the dross.

[callanrockslol]

Truth