Reasonable force in self defence within a department.

[Gouty]

So, it is well understood that if you enter a department illegally and refuse to leave, that the occupants may apply lethal force.

It seems that players recently have gotten into the mindset that "lol you are trespassing my department therefore I can kill you" regardless of the situation and use this as an excuse to get their valids on.

I've had 2 situations today where this has come up.

In one someone hopped the kitchen counter and entered the kitchen, a chef and a warden were present, the warden stunned and restrained the intruder and allowed the chef to kill and drag them into the back room for gibbing.

In the other, on pubby station, a scientist was not aware that the corridor between R&D and Robotics was public access and so killed someone with no prior interaction. Even if the area was deemed only for science staff the assistant was there peacefully.

Is there any way to clarify what constitutes reasonable force? Or are admins to continue using our best judgement?

[Lazengann]

I thought it was critting for first offense and lethal for if they come back

[Lazengann]

Also if they don't ask them to leave first(when appropriate) then they're shitty, go have em play elsewhere

[Gouty]

This is the thing, is it as cut and dry as that? What if they have a reason to be in there? What if you have the ability to stun and restrain?

Also if they don't ask them to leave first(when appropriate) then they're shitty, go have em play elsewhere

And I've seen people tell someone to leave, and while they are trying, or typing out a reply jump straight on them with a toolbox or the like.

[Dax Dupont]

What if you have the ability to stun and restrain?

Did they hack/tailgate? Try and stun, let security pick em up.
Did they break your windows/walls to get in, did they break anything inside, steal vital shit and/or waste resources? Toolbox them to crit/death.

Intent is also a big one, did the guy go inside because they needed something or wanted to fix something? Like a doctor getting into science because nobody is doing science and cloning has 30 corpses in line?
Or is Mr. Greytide only interested on being inside to start conflict for escalation(murder) sake? To scream HELP JORGE MELANS IS TATOR/REV/AI THEY ARE HARMING HUMANS. I've seen some players doing the latter a lot lately.

[Anonmare]

If you ask them to leave and they don't leave within a reasonable amount of time or verbally or physically refuse - you go to disarm/stun. If they come back, you get security involved. If it happens a third time, you can go to critting (try to avoid killing if possible). If they come back a fourth time, then go to lethal.

NOTE: You can move to the next escalation step if they respond in kind. You go for the stun, they go for the disarm. They jump to harmful, you go harmful.

Please keep in mind context, if someone is hiding from the e-sworder outside - don't gift-wrap them for the murderer. If a singulo is tearing its way through the station, don't be a massive cunt.

[PKPenguin321]

>accidentally warp into chemistry lab with a strange item
>in literally less than a second lit on fire and splashed with acid
fuck chemists

[Steelpoint]

Context is key but I feel there should be some reasonable time frame offered to "intruders" to leave the department before you unsheath your hidden weapons you made in anticipation for this very moment.

Hacking someone to death without giving them a chance to leave, or even explain their presence, strikes me as poor sportsmanship and just shitty behaviour in general.

[cedarbridge]

Context is key but I feel there should be some reasonable time frame offered to "intruders" to leave the department before you unsheath your hidden weapons you made in anticipation for this very moment.

Hacking someone to death without giving them a chance to leave, or even explain their presence, strikes me as poor sportsmanship and just shitty behaviour in general.

Context as you said, but in the cases where the break-in or trespass is clearly intentional (tiding the chem shed, forcing yourself into robotics to get shades/a flash/whatever) there should be no issue with the defender simply disposing of the intruder. The offending party has clearly demonstrated that they are willing to force the issue by forcing their way inside.

[CPTANT]

If you ask them to leave and they don't leave within a reasonable amount of time or verbally or physically refuse - you go to disarm/stun. If they come back, you get security involved. If it happens a third time, you can go to critting (try to avoid killing if possible). If they come back a fourth time, then go to lethal.

NOTE: You can move to the next escalation step if they respond in kind. You go for the stun, they go for the disarm. They jump to harmful, you go harmful.

Please keep in mind context, if someone is hiding from the e-sworder outside - don't gift-wrap them for the murderer. If a singulo is tearing its way through the station, don't be a massive cunt.

Pfff usually people try to lynch you the moment you set foot in a department, trying to leave or not.

[Ispiria]

I've always treated it, both while playing and as an admin, with a fairly reasonable and standard chain of escalation.

First intrusion - Ask them, verbally, to leave. Either they do, and problem resolved, or they don't.

If they refuse to leave - Violent, but non-lethal force, to remove them is permitted. If they respond with violence while invading a department, the defender is permitted to escalate further to potentially lethal force. Nobody should be expected to de-escalate while defending their own department. If the intruder does not respond violently and is killed anyway, the defender has gone too far and is liable for admin punishment.

Second intrusion - Lethal force authorized. If a person has intruded twice barring some emergency necessitating their presence (supermatter is going and they're there to fix it, station is burning down and they need supplies from medbay, etc), they've put a target on their own back and the department can't be expected to continue throwing them out. Still wouldn't make permanent removal from the round a fair response, but killing them and leaving their corpse on the floor would seem fair enough - the defenders shouldn't feel obligated to see the intruder gets cloned.

As long as something similar to this chain of escalation was present, I'd have a hard time getting too angry at the defenders. There's only so much bullshit a department can be expected to take before they decide repeatedly throwing someone out just isn't going to be worth the hassle. Giving one fair warning and throwing them out alive is all the response an intruder should really deserve.

[Cobby]

Follow ACK

Ask first
Crit second*
Kill Last

* leave them somewhere they can get sent to medbay. If they bleed out not your problem.

[RandomMarine]

I don't think this kind of situation needs any hard and fast rules. There are many factors that could be at play. And I really feel we need far, far less 'if they do X then valid' rules that can be toelined.

Did the person breaking in attempt to contact the department first, was a perfectly reasonable request returned with silence?
Is it a particularly sensitive area where any time a perp is allowed to explain themselves could be used to fuck up the station? (Engine room, AI upload, etc)
Is the station-wide situation currently out of control?
Do they have any legitimate reason to be in there?
Did they break in on their own volition or are they some unfortunate sap who got beaned by a bluespace tomato?

All are kinds of questions that can change what a reasonable response to a break-in is.

[DemonFiren]

>someone else doing my job
hahahahahahaha no

[Saegrimr]

>someone else doing my job
hahahahahahaha no

>Not stunning them, taking their ID and clothes, giving them your ID and clothes, and going to do their job instead

[DemonFiren]

>someone else doing my job
hahahahahahaha no

>Not stunning them, taking their ID and clothes, giving them your ID and clothes, and going to do their job instead

>demoting yourself to assistant
Ligga please.

>not appreciating the extra hand and potential time to go do whatever you want

>someone else doing my job
>my job
>the job i specifically chose to do
>like almost everything in current ss13 a one-man job
>go do whatever you want
really tosses my fruit salad

[cedarbridge]

if you kick someone out of your department/kill them when they aren't negatively harming you or the station you are a faggot
if you kick someone out of your department/kill them literally the second you see them without even asking them questions, you are a mega ultra omega faggot and i hate you

if they are doing something useful and/or doing your fucking job, just leave them be, jesus christ

There's a joke here about banging your wife.

[Reece]

Moonlighting is not okay!

[Nilons]

>not appreciating the extra hand and potential time to go do whatever you want

this is stupid, doing rnd with more than one person is suicide inducing, same with a bunch of other jobs

[Nabski]

I was inspired by this thread to stand inside science and spend a shift just tossing two toolbox thwacks as an entry fee to any would be moonlighters.

Gotta pay that toll.